IETF
intarea
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Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
Ole Trøan_ has set the subject to: INTAREA at IETF 109
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[14:27:27] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Good morning
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[14:27:53] <Bob Hinden_web_922> I can hear you
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[14:30:21] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> No volunteer for minute taking ?
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[14:32:08] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Are there slides?   Note well is usually shown.
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[14:32:33] <David Black_web_650> yes, slides coming through ...
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[14:33:34] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> I agree, normally there should be a Note Well shown.  That is of IETF.  It says many interesting things about which we all do agree.
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[14:33:45] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Agenda slide?
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[14:34:02] <David Black_web_650> There are slides being shown note well was shown, agenda slide is up now.
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[14:34:14] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> Was the Note Well slide displayed?
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[14:34:20] <David Black_web_650> Yes.
[14:34:26] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Not seeing anything, am I the only one?
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[14:34:40] <Andrew Campling_web_849> Slides are fine for me
[14:34:43] <David Black_web_650> I am (obviously) seeing slides ...
[14:34:46] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> Click the upper leftmost rectable showing person and screen?
[14:34:48] <Peter van Dijk_web_546> Bob, try clicking the first button in the button bar on the top
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[14:35:18] <Bob Hinden_web_922> That was it, I was in the wrong view :-(
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[14:36:05] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Need more coffee....
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[14:36:21] <David Black_web_650> I've had many mornings like that ...
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[14:37:26] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_790> too bad that pearg conflicts with this meeting as they talk about ip address privacy
[14:37:37] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> Q to JC: April meeting online?
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[14:38:12] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Mirja indeed :-(
[14:38:13] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> I mean for Madinas
[14:38:23] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Behcet: yes of course ;-)
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[14:39:48] <BEHCET SARIKAYA> @Eric thanks
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[14:40:16] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> It is interesting to talk about ip address privacy, but not interesting to call an IPv6 address a private address like RFC1918 does :-)
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[14:44:23] <Andrew Campling_web_807> DPI doesn't scale so well either
[14:44:36] <Bob Hinden_web_922> Isn't application aware networking, just the opposite from Network Neutrality?
[14:44:53] <Dave Thaler_web_365> depends on whether the app is in control or the operator
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[14:44:56] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> Mostly ;-)
[14:44:57] <Mirja Kühlewind_web_790> not if there is consent from the client
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[14:45:19] <Dave Thaler_web_365> e.g., is diffserv with DSCP set by the host the opposite of net neutrality or not
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[14:45:20] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> I guess that net neutrality is for the Internet while APN is for private (read enterprise intranet)
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[14:45:41] <Andrew Campling_web_807> @Mirja Probably user rather than client?  
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[14:45:48] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> right
[14:46:07] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> "the client" -- app that the user cannot control
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[14:46:33] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> In 6GIP it was said also Interface Neutrality - maybe app-aware networking is contrary to Interface Neutrality as well.
[14:47:15] <David Black_web_650> Definitely hearing use case around interface/network selection per-application
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[14:48:22] <Dave Thaler_web_365> the term "game" is not will defined.   charactistics like "latency sensitive" "real-time" are.
[14:48:25] <Bob Hinden_web_922> This is a good talk!
[14:48:26] <Dave Thaler_web_365> well
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[14:48:51] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Bob +1 (as usual with Tommy)
[14:49:19] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> It's hard to define.  Even at the beginning of this presentation, it was said a phone is on multiple networks, like VoLTE, cellular data and WiFi.  But Vo_LTE_ and cellular data is the same thing.  In the ennd there are just two ifaces about much data in a smartphone, and they are so different that there is no possiility to make them look alike to apps: there are different apps.  Apps are more cellular-oriented or more wifi-oriented.
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[14:50:02] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_967> We've seen similar things in tsvwg in the past - the key will be finding what can be claimed about apss/flows and can be used.
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[14:50:52] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_967> One of the big questions in the past was "what do you claim you are" versus "what do you claim you want".
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[14:51:09] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_967> Transport is interested in QoS also....
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[14:51:27] <Bob Hinden_web_922> +1 to adopt in Internet Area.    
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[14:52:11] <Dave Thaler_web_365> TAPS would be another place that this touches on, so transport area review as well
[14:52:39] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> Hum unsure about TAPS
[14:52:58] <Dave Thaler_web_365> this shouldn't go in taps, but is relevant to it in some ways
[14:53:05] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> W/o any hat: it seems either intarea or saag
[14:53:20] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Dave; ok, it touches indeed many WG ;-)
[14:53:22] <Dave Thaler_web_365> like the ability to apps to specify what network to go on, and what quality they want is discussed in taps
[14:53:28] <David Black_web_650> @Dave +1 on Transport Area, but agree w/Eric on appropriate venue likely being somewhere other than TAPS.
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[14:53:48] <Dave Thaler_web_365> yes I think INTAREA is best place, just saying to inform other groups this is where the discussion is
[14:54:21] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga_web_248> We are stopping the queue
[14:54:21] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Dave Thaler: we agre
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[14:55:21] <Dave Thaler_web_365> so at least: dispatch, saag, and taps (probably others) should be made aware
[14:55:23] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> agree to  gap analysis as a first activity on this
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[14:56:37] <Erik Kline_web_392> one of these APN proposals still has app id and use id fields, iirc
[14:56:47] <Erik Kline_web_392> user*
[14:57:19] <Spencer Dawkins_web_743> If it helps to include this in the notes, the PANRG draft I was referring to is https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-panrg-what-not-to-do/.
[14:57:30] <Spencer Dawkins_web_743> Do the right thing, of course ...
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[14:57:55] <Dave Thaler_web_365> the doc in DISPATCH was https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis
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[14:58:29] <David Black_web_650> Which is also coming up soon in this meeting.
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[14:58:34] <Dave Thaler_web_365> and in SAAG draft-peng-apn-security-privacy-consideration
[14:58:35] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> This makes me think that the use of APN term might be confusing at times.  I sometimes work with some operator that routinely puts up app-specific APNs, i.e. an APN for this kind of app or this other APN for that other application, or domain of applications.  That's an APN access point name.
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[15:00:04] <Dave Thaler_web_365> to chairs: next steps?  call for adoption?   need more discussion?  (I'm for adopting)
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[15:00:38] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> (after checking with the charter of course)
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[15:00:43] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> Better not make any recommendation yet. I'd rather like to see a crisp description of the objectives -- and then a discussion about what is missing, and whether better controllable interface selection and a modern QoS system would not suffice.
[15:01:46] <Spencer Dawkins_web_743> I do note that this would be a SMASHING topic for an INTAREA virtual interim before IETF 111, since we've got several months and we know multiple areas are going to be involved ...
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[15:02:08] <Dave Thaler_web_365> @dirk the draft is about considerations not solutions per se
[15:03:18] <Jim Reid_web_466> Capturing those considerations will provide the foundations for future work. Got to start somewhere...
[15:03:20] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> Yes, that's good.
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[15:04:10] <Eduard V_web_417> It looks like the policy. It is a double-edged sword. Future performance in standards development in exchange for flexibility. Usefulness would depends very much on the quality of the policy itself.
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[15:05:23] <Joel Halpern_web_444> Limited domains for actual applications seem to inevitably stop being limited domain.
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[15:05:52] <Dave Thaler_web_365> for whre: it's actually the style of doc we've done as IAB documents (like Architectectural Considerations of Anycast for example) but IETF stream is stronger than IAB stream so I support INTAREA.
[15:05:54] <Erik Kline_web_392> I often feel like "limited domain" is a somewhat abused term.  A nation-wide incumbent carrier network with a huge market share can be called a "limited domain", but the market power they can exercise goes well outside that domain
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[15:06:10] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Joel: s/actual/current/ ?
[15:06:59] <Bob Hinden_web_922> +1 to Erik.
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[15:07:49] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @erik: as long it is transparent to the incumbent/monopolistic provider  user, then isn't this a 'limited domain ' (e.g., MPLS core)
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[15:10:17] <Erik Kline_web_392> I'm not sure what "transparent" here is implying.  The ability for extraordinarily large "limited domains" to effectively force nodes at the edge of that domain to alter their behaviour is what I think escapes the domain
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[15:10:56] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> forcing node outside to change behavior is indeed not a limited domain anymore
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[15:11:57] <Joel Halpern_web_444> @Eric Vynke - history suggests that every time we thought we had an application for a limited domain, it turned out to be used over broader scopes.  There may be a few very rare applications that inherently need certain limiting properties.  All I know is when we have tried to guess that in the past, we have been wrong.
[15:12:10] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> There can be "limited domain networks", but I'd try to avoid using the term "limited domain" for motivating deviations from Internet principles and security best practices, for the reasons that Erik mentioned.
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[15:12:26] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Joel fair enough
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[15:14:39] <David Black_web_650> +1
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[15:18:39] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> But for 'limited domain' term there is an Internet Draft.  If other term should replace it, is there an I-D for it?
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[15:19:49] <Dave Thaler_web_365> doesn't say APN is not Diffserv, so presumably it can be diffserv (DSCP)
[15:20:10] <Dave Thaler_web_365> (that  came up in dispatch and saag chat)
[15:20:13] <David Black_web_650> DetNet (Deterministic Networking) may be an example where limited domain app and network scopes mostly line up.
[15:20:15] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> based on the topology show, indeed
[15:20:35] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> of course, how to decide which tag is interesting problem
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[15:21:25] <David Black_web_650> Based on current slide, wonder whether DSCP has enough flexibility.
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[15:21:40] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> Not enough bits?
[15:21:47] <Dave Thaler_web_365> right one person said "so... DSCP with more bits"?  (and I said "IPv6 flowlabel?)
[15:21:50] <frodek> IMHO it should be renamed "Network Policy Tokens", not "Application Aware Networking".
[15:21:57] <David Black_web_650> Too much convention in how values are typically used ...
[15:22:17] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> There is a draft about tokens and QoS in future networks
[15:22:35] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> How many equivalence classes are expected here?
[15:22:37] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> Should the discussion of the purpose and value of the idea be separated from "how we squeeze this into the bit on the wire"?
[15:22:52] <David Black_web_650> Yes, have seen need for that in another context.
[15:22:56] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> @Frodek: this will make easier any adoption probably
[15:22:59] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> @alex that is network tokens, I think
[15:23:10] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> Slide said "this is not network tokens"
[15:23:47] <Dave Thaler_web_365> "1 field in the IP layer" is the part I said "so IPv6 flowlabel?"
[15:24:15] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> is that consistent with "current" uses of flow label?
[15:24:16] <Dirk Kutscher_web_730> Ah!
[15:24:26] <Dave Thaler_web_365> point 2
[15:24:35] <Dave Thaler_web_365> this slide is the survey
[15:24:55] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> oh yes, rtfslides :-(
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[15:26:10] <Dave Thaler_web_365> in saag one discussion (from ekr I think) was about whether user id was, or was not, one of the discriminators.   I think one slide said no, and this slide implies yes
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[15:26:50] <David Black_web_650> slide implies "definite maybe" as I read it ...
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[15:27:14] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_508> It seems like each SLA could be encoded as an IPSec tunnel
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[15:27:33] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_508> Choose your tunnel to adjust SLA
[15:27:35] <Dave Thaler_web_365> ekr's (I think it was) is that the ansewr affects lots of other things, so need to know
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[15:27:52] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> IMHO it not so much about HOW to tag but on WHAT the tag selection is based
[15:28:04] <Joel Halpern_web_444> And this again assumes that things are in limited domains.
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[15:28:16] <Erik Kline_web_906> (8799 was ISE)
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[15:28:25] <Ole Trøan_web_548> Rename intarea to ltdarea?
[15:28:29] <Dave Thaler_web_365> @Eric right, that was the gist of the saag discussion
[15:28:37] <frodek> is this  motivated by a wish  to preserve "5G slice semantics" outside the 5G domain. I.e. a large number of "slice semantic" and a need to a large number of "policy identifieers"
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[15:29:29] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga_web_248> @Toerless, point taken about the lack of time - although very hard to manage when requests to present arrive VERY late and once the meeting time has already been planned. We will send a note on the ML on this regard to try to solve the issue for upcoming meetings
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[15:30:06] <Erik Kline_web_906> I think we need a "limited domains considered harmful" alternative to ISE 8799
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[15:30:21] <Dave Thaler_web_365> I pointed out in saag that in many use cases you get the user id without it being communicated in any field of the packet, but as a property of the L2 ingress link, as acquired at link authentication time (in 1x, ppp, 5g, etc.)
[15:30:29] <David Black_web_650> "Send Draft!" (w/credit to Randy Bush) ...
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[15:30:44] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> This work meshes nicely with some routing research work we are looking at (presented in RTGWG yesterday) with early draft at draft-king-irtf-challenges-in-routing-01
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[15:30:54] <Dirk Trossen_web_598> +1
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[15:30:58] <Tommy Pauly_web_888> @Erik +1 =)
[15:31:01] <Dave Thaler_web_365> so could be a discriminator (for good or bad) without DPI per se
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[15:31:41] <Joel Halpern_web_444> I would have liked to see some description of the problems in a presentation that says there are problems.  Looking at the draft, I did not understand what problems the authors thought needed to be addressed.
[15:32:01] <Tommy Pauly_web_888> Indeed, it's not stating any actual problem here.
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[15:32:08] <Éric Vyncke_web_943> and this presentation did not help :-(
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[15:32:15] <Alexandre Petrescu_web_124> There are obviously some problems in some WGs that relate to addressing...
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[15:32:20] <Adrian Farrel_web_784> My fear is the problems are in routing :-)
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[15:32:36] <Dirk Hugo_web_696> THANKS!
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[15:34:13] <Dirk Trossen_web_598> @joel fair point but my gut reaction (being involved in this) is that a discussion on addressing problems may need more than 10 mins to start with
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