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[07:26:30] <Lars Eggert> ping?
[07:26:36] <Bob Hinden> Ack
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[07:26:41] <Joel Halpern> Ack.
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[07:32:12] <Joel Halpern> If anyone has a comment or question they want relayed to the room audio, please prepend "mic:" and I will get on the queue and relay it.
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[07:33:36] <Spencer Dawkins> I think you lost wassim
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[07:34:17] <Ole Trøan_> Challenge: Come up with something funny we can get Joel to say on the mic:
[07:34:18] <Joseph Kalfa> mic:I don't think the mp3 audio stream is working
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[07:34:45] <Meetecho> Joseph Kalfa: checking
[07:34:51] Ole Trøan_ has set the subject to: INTAREA at IETF 109
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[07:35:08] <George Michaelson> within the limits of my comprehension and time I will do markdown in codemd
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[07:35:23] <Meetecho> Joseph Kalfa: can yo try again? Should be ok now
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[07:35:34] <Joseph Kalfa> it's working now thanks!!
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[07:37:03] <Lucas Pardue> +1 to David
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[07:38:34] <Erik Kline> do these documents conflict at with MASQUE?
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[07:38:39] <Tommy Pauly> But there's a MASQUE WG already for proxying over QUIC
[07:38:40] <Tommy Pauly> Yes
[07:38:43] <Tommy Pauly> They need to be in MASQUE
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[07:39:34] <Lucas Pardue> thanks for clarifying Eric
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[07:40:09] <Éric Vyncke> MASQUE would be my "guess" at first sight
[07:40:12] <Jana Iyengar> I expect these ought to be in MASQUE. That would be a fine conclusion after the presentation.
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[07:40:55] <Mirja> this work was mentioned in the bof presentation of masque, so I don't understand why it show up here now
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[07:42:19] <Bob Hinden> Suggest skipping to the next talk, he might show up later.
[07:42:39] <Ole Trøan_> I just realise how well prepared we usually are. ;-)
[07:42:50] <Spencer Dawkins> @Mirja, without expressing an opinion about the destination, I don't know that this was in the charter for MASQUE as approved. I asked about clarifying the definition of "proxy" in the MASQUE charter, but we didn't go there, for better or worse.
[07:43:05] <Éric Vyncke> OTOH MASQUE is about proxying mainly, if those quic-tunnel I-D are more tunnels (and this is a fine border) then intarea is probably better suited.
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[07:43:45] <Spencer Dawkins> @Eric - not that we're good at figuring out which area cross-area responsibilities end up in :D
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[07:43:56] <Mirja> no that's what I'm saying this approach was discussed as a solution for masque but the community decided to not follow that approach
[07:44:08] <Spencer Dawkins> I suppose this is why we have an IESG?
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[07:44:26] <Mirja> (either personally would have been fine with either approach but I only what to have one)
[07:44:33] <Tommy Pauly> Right
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[07:46:59] <George Michaelson> hooray! we're implementing the ISO session layer for real now!
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[07:47:12] <George Michaelson> also: fragments? there are no fragments inside QUIC..
[07:47:20] <Mike Bishop> (Datagrams are an extension, not part of QUIC proper.)
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[07:47:44] <George Michaelson> a persisting agile session is interesting, would make for some very nice mobile outcomes, if the quic session can carry between different IP endpoints with a session handle
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[07:48:49] <Toerless Eckert> whats the motivation for this use-case ?
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[07:49:09] <Éric Vyncke> @Toerless: mic question later ?
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[07:50:19] <Martin Thomson> I don't think that this is the right design.  But I will be contributing to solutions in MASQUE.
[07:51:04] <Mohamed Boucadair> @Toerless: may be the same use case as in SOCKSv6 presented in the previous slot
[07:51:11] <Toerless Eckert> no audio right now...
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[07:52:06] <Jared Mauch> (audio is fine here)
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[07:52:24] <Joel Halpern> @Toerless, have you tried the reconnect button on the lower right?
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[07:56:27] <Mike Bishop> Explicitly introducing head-of-line blocking in QUIC is an interesting approach....
[07:56:54] <Jana Iyengar> What is the point of the reordering? Is that to ensure that QUIC packets are in order?
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[07:57:33] <Mike Bishop> They're using an application-level multipath, and specifying the order the packets should be in when they leave the concentrator regardless of which path they arrive on.
[07:57:38] <Tommy Pauly> Ah, stream mode. What you can already do with CONNECT. It's great! And doesn't need anything new...
[07:58:13] <Mike Bishop> CONNECT without HTTP in the way.  ;-)
[07:58:18] <Jana Iyengar> @Mike Bishop : Thanks for clarifying.
[07:58:21] <David Schinazi> This is definitely reinventing CONNECT
[07:58:22] <Mohamed Boucadair> they are focusing on the glue in the concentrator, not the stream mechanics
[07:58:24] <Tommy Pauly> You know that one byte of overhead
[07:58:32] <Jana Iyengar> It IS CONNECT, not reinventing it
[07:58:42] <Tommy Pauly> Well, except it only supports IP addresses
[07:58:45] <Tommy Pauly> And no names
[07:58:51] <Tommy Pauly> So it's just CONNECT, but worse.
[07:59:27] <Mohamed Boucadair> for the name thing, this was discarded for other proposals. See RFC8803
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[08:01:05] <Jana Iyengar> +1 David
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[08:01:22] <Mike Bishop> +1, this is MASQUE without HTTP.
[08:01:25] <Nicolas Kuhn> +1 with the MASQUE
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[08:03:13] <Martin Thomson> So why is this in INTAREA and not TSVWG?
[08:03:17] <Lucas Pardue> CONNECT has been in HTTP/3 since https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-0 (2017)
[08:03:18] <Toerless Eckert> does masque support datagram ? DOn't know if http supports datagram
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[08:03:29] <Martin Thomson> Was the TSV question answered?
[08:03:45] <Mike Bishop> Yes, MASQUE has an active draft defining a UDP equivalent of CONNECT.
[08:03:53] <Toerless Eckert> thanks
[08:03:53] <Martin Thomson> Toerless: MASQUE is specifically adding UDP support
[08:04:02] <Martin Thomson> HTTP already has TCP support
[08:04:12] <Spencer Dawkins> I believe a TSV AD may be in the room ...
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[08:07:21] <Jana Iyengar> A question for the INT ADs: Were the MASQUE/QUIC chairs or the TSV ADs consulted before giving this time in INTAREA?
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[08:07:32] <Mohamed Boucadair> @Tommy: the complexity/overhead will depend on the access over which this will deployed.
[08:07:58] <Tommy Pauly> The difference is complexity is TLV versus some types with varints
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[08:08:22] <Eric Kinnear> +1 Eric, let's sync up
[08:08:25] <Tommy Pauly> No deployment differences make it impossible to have a different wire encoding
[08:09:22] <dschinazi> The differences between this and MASQUE are all inside the encryption (apart from the ALPN) so it won't impact the underlying network type
[08:10:11] <Jana Iyengar> Just because there are differences doesn't make this worth doing.
[08:10:31] <Jana Iyengar> I'm not seeing strong motivators for why these differences matter.
[08:10:45] <Mohamed Boucadair> Sure, Jana.
[08:10:57] <Tommy Pauly> I think they're minor tweaks or extensions to MASQUE at most
[08:11:01] <Tommy Pauly> Which we should discuss!
[08:11:08] <dschinazi> +1 to Jana, the differences need to be justified better
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[08:11:56] <dschinazi> @Tommy +1, I agree that this should work as MASQUE extensions
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[08:14:29] <Éric Vyncke> It seems pretty clear to me (but let's talk with chairs &amp; AD) that this work should not be homed in intarea but probably in masque
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[08:16:13] <Toerless Eckert> when masque is meant to tunnel network layer payloads, does it bother to be separating control and data-plane that it can be performed in typical HW accelerated forwarding planes ?
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[08:17:48] <dschinazi> @Toerless we don't have full proposals yet, MASQUE is still pretty young
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[08:23:26] <Éric Vyncke> It looks like Pascal's I-D was less attractive to participants ;-)
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[08:25:39] <George Michaelson> do I have to say my piece about global unicast assignment being in the RIR policy system?
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[08:26:00] <George Michaelson> I mean sure, design a new addressing mode, re-invent TLA, but .. if its in unicast globally routed, you are in the wrong room
[08:26:13] <Toerless Eckert> no soapbox tinyurl ?
[08:26:16] <George Michaelson> (he said geo)
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[08:26:50] <Ted Hardie> Today's example of "It's a tuple, [elided]"
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[08:27:57] <Mike Bishop> Forgive my lack of knowledge of 6lowpan, but is there a reason a node couldn't just expand that to regular IPv6?  That doesn't seem to require a rev of how addressing works.
[08:28:32] <dschinazi> The satellite use-case reminds me of IPv10 and the Khaled Routing Protocol from a few years back
[08:28:45] <George Michaelson> So this merges in some stuff which DT does, bit signalling in the IP address space
[08:28:46] <Andrew Campling> Too many slides for a 5 minute slot
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[08:28:56] <Éric Vyncke> @Mike: 6LO needs the two nodes to agree before
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[08:28:59] <Toerless Eckert> how about a 20 bit address space used within SP networks ;-)
[08:29:15] <Toerless Eckert> or a 48 bit address space used in aggregation networks...
[08:29:15] <Éric Vyncke> @David: please no...
[08:29:15] <George Michaelson> finally, a use for the flowID
[08:30:14] <Tom Hill> All I'm hearing is 'more NAT'
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[08:31:14] <Erik Kline> or CLNP
[08:31:48] <David Lawrence> nooooo not ipv10
[08:31:50] <Bron Gondwana> ipvX
[08:31:51] <Andrew Campling> New IP?
[08:32:01] <Erik Kline> as deering said, variable length addressing quickly becomes maximum length addressing
[08:32:01] <Bob Hinden> IPv16
[08:32:04] <David Lawrence> he's invoked the ip of the beaast
[08:32:10] <Toerless Eckert> ipVAR
[08:32:11] <Bron Gondwana> it's all base 10
[08:32:12] <Adam Wiethuechter> IPvV?
[08:32:27] <Erik Kline> IPvarint
[08:32:28] <Éric Vyncke> @Bob: rolling overflow for IPv16 to IPv0 ;-)
[08:32:33] <Toerless Eckert> nah, hex addressing is fine
[08:32:36] <Bron Gondwana> ip{CBOROBJECT}
[08:33:34] <Ole Trøan_> With variable length addressing we can do away with that pesky payload thing. Put it all in the address
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[08:34:06] <Tom Hill> Ohh.. uSIDs!
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[08:35:04] <Ole Trøan_> Ted: +1
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[08:36:23] <Juan-Carlos Zúñiga> Thanks to note takers!
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