Monday, November 8, 2021< ^ >
jishac has set the subject to: Internet Congestion Control Research Group
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[15:59:20] <Jake Holland_web_276> I can help with notes, sure.
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[16:00:07] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> i can scribe
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[16:09:29] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> it is still an O(log N) mechanism
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[16:35:19] <Lin Han_web_136> can this algorithm be used for congestions happing in multi hops in Internet?
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[16:36:17] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> that seems difficult, it seems to rely on a single admin domain
[16:36:50] <Martin Duke_web_661> how many agenda items are we going to get through today?
[16:37:25] <Lin Han_web_136> if ignoring the admin issue? @Jonathan
[16:37:56] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> some of the signalling packets operate at L3, so perhaps in theory
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[16:38:03] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> maybe ask that on list
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[16:38:15] <Lin Han_web_136> Thx
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[16:40:23] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_577> It will be interesting to see how other BBR-basd
[16:40:39] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> or discuss in Gather, if you and Mr. Lee are there
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[16:43:16] <Jeongkeun Lee_web_358> Thanks a lot for the comments/questions to SFC. Re: Lin Han's question, applying SFC to Internet should be possible if we can mitigate the security concern. As I understand, BBR is making use of ECN markings done by Internet or DOCSIS routers based on a certain trust model. If ICCRG is interested in, we can further discuss.
[16:43:27] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_577> ...based work to extend DCCP now develops, and whether BBR settles on a specific specification that might be captured as a DCCP CCID standards document.
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[16:47:47] <Jake Holland_web_276> Gorry, your sound was low.  Was that "please discuss on either" or "please discuss on tsvwg"?
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[16:48:25] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_577> Discuss either place, but discuss "algorithms and BBR issues on ICCRG"
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[16:53:34] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> dumb question: how does one determine the server's CC algorithm?
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[16:54:07] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> I think reading the "census" paper would explain that
[16:55:16] <Jake Holland_web_276>
[16:55:36] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> thanks Jake
[16:56:56] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> @lucas, basically by emulating specific network loss/delay behavior at the client and observing sender's response. (at its core, this is how the SIGMETRICS paper's techniques work)
[16:58:10] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> ok, sounds like something that clients would not run during real connections
[16:58:10] <Jake Holland_web_276> (i'll comment that the akamai observations in that paper are likely to be out of date today btw, but were very interesting to read :) .)
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[16:59:06] <Roland Bless_web_438> There are probably some devices out there that cannot be "upgraded" to BBR, so they have no choice to switch their CC
[16:59:34] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> @lucas - Yup, these are active measurements, meant to probe the congestion controller.
[17:00:19] <Gorry Fairhurst_web_577> So the metric suggested to maximise is "throughput", I wonder how this works-out when you also have flows that wish to minimise collateral loss/latency, rather than increase their share of capacity.
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[17:01:36] <Anant Shah_web_802> I should probably dive into the paper more, but I'm curious what the variety of type of flows was in this study? Large video delivery along with small but many web objects etc. A very typical scenario CDNs have to consider
[17:02:05] <Martin Duke_web_661> but if the slope is negative, this does not hold, yes?
[17:02:27] <Martin Duke_web_661> nope, never mind
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[17:03:05] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> @Anant: I believe this analysis does not use real traffic profiles, but uses long running flows
[17:03:21] <Anant Shah_web_802> Ack. Thanks Jana
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[17:05:42] <Martin Duke_web_661> Is RTT = min RTT?
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[17:06:49] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> I think it is native RTT, without queueing
[17:07:17] <Jake Holland_web_276> it's pretty hard to compare congestion controller behavior across short flows.  How to approach that issue would be a good research topic; there's only so much a connection-based controller can do...
[17:07:30] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> in a shared queue, the induced delay is experienced by all flows in addition to the native
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[17:08:00] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> (and it's dynamic)
[17:08:47] <Martin Duke_web_661> So IIUC, people adopt BBR until the ambient buffers small, at which point Cubic is fine for whomever is left on Cubic
[17:09:50] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> I understood it as: short paths are more likely to prefer CUBIC over BBR, long paths to prefer BBR over CUBIC, in a heterogeneous environment
[17:10:40] <Roland Bless_web_438> Yes, because Cubic has advantages for short RTTs, whereas BBR has advantages for large RTTs...
[17:10:59] <Roland Bless_web_438> w.r.t. to their share
[17:11:00] <Jake Holland_web_276> i thought the chart about depending on queue size said deep queues favor cubic when optimizing for throughput, which i think makes sense.  it'll grow bigger before falling off.
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[17:14:44] <Roland Bless_web_438> @Jake that's also true in case the flows have the same RTT
[17:15:09] <Anant Shah_web_802> One more thing, we gotta start thinking about QoE (rebuffering etc) when evaluating ccalgos not just throughput. But that's a broader comment not just for this talk.
[17:15:18] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> is there any research that has measured connection duration on the Internet / Web?
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[17:16:54] <Theresa Enghardt_web_720> The most recent one should be this one: (ANRW 2021)
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[17:20:38] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> good call Theresa, thanks! Video at
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[17:21:42] <Nicolas Kuhn_web_930> On the flow sizes, forward and return ratios, i found this pointer very useful : M. Trevisan, D. Giordano, I. Drago, M. M. Munafò and M. Mellia, "Five Years at the Edge: Watching Internet From the ISP Network," in IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, vol. 28, no. 2, pp. 561-574, April 2020, doi: 10.1109/TNET.2020.2967588.
[17:22:41] <Martin Duke_web_661> IMO the real tipping point is when the research community recommends that the main stacks switch their default
[17:23:09] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> that is probably important in practice, yes
[17:23:19] <Jake Holland_web_276> the real tipping point is when those stacks ship it :)
[17:23:23] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> but those recommendations will take into account research of this type
[17:23:40] <Jake Holland_web_276> unless of course "main stacks" is a misnomer in the brave new world of quic stacks shipped with apps...
[17:23:52] <Martin Duke_web_661> true
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[17:24:45] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> "shrink" -> "stop extending right edge"
[17:25:15] <Jake Holland_web_276> "we will live with a zoo of algorithms indefinitely" seems like a reasonable conclusion.
[17:25:44] <Martin Duke_web_661> we still have a ton of customers on HSTCP :grimacing:
[17:25:48] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> which in turn implies that new CC work must coexist reasonably with all of them
[17:26:41] <Jake Holland_web_276> either that or "some kind of policing should probably be rolled out", c.f. huitema at 105 iirc (in was it tsvarea?)
[17:27:47] <Michael Welzl_web_775> the return of conex?
[17:28:02] <Michael Welzl_web_775> by then, there's also ipv6 everywhere, so that fits
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[17:28:49] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @jake - I think you mean
[17:29:16] <Jake Holland_web_276> yes
[17:30:52] <Michael Welzl_web_775> but there are also incentives to deploy e.g. the thing we're listening to right now. not all flows are capacity-seeking (actually, not many really are, I'd say)
[17:32:21] <Martin Duke_web_661> Welcome to my world, Praveen
[17:32:27] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Michael, I think once you say flows are application-limited (that's what we're talking about, perhaps?), all the transport researchers explode in a puff of smoke.
[17:32:45] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> we should turn those questions and answers between you all into a draft :-)
[17:33:05] <Michael Welzl_web_775> @Spencer: not *all*  :-D  I still exist     :-D
[17:33:53] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Jana, I agree, and I think that's true of many of the ICCRG meetings I've attended on Meetecho!
[17:33:58] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> it might be accurate to say that many flows are too short for their congestion control to reach available capacity
[17:34:26] <Michael Welzl_web_775> but seriously yes, the research focus (for the Internet, not DC, there it may be all right) should shift at some point, to be more in line with the reality of flow lengths and application-limited transfers
[17:34:36] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> Who's holding a pen for that? Or just setting up a github repo? I'd contribute ...
[17:34:43] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> The "• CUBIC dominates BBRv2 across a range of test cases" is a known issue we are working on
[17:35:27] <Jake Holland_web_276> yeah, that's always been a hard problem.
[17:35:27] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> the slow-start phase is probably an under-researched topic
[17:35:34] <Matt Joras_web_732> I've long thought that the reason researchers focus on not-application-limited workflows is for the really simple reason that those are easiest to emulate.It's very hard to emulate "realistic" application workflows, especially when you're an independent researcher that can't easily sample real workflows.
[17:36:03] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> Just wanted to mention that we have a "fast path" implementation for BBRv2 that takes care of the CPU usage issues, at least in our environment.
[17:36:56] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Jonathan - I'd agree - how far you get into slow start would also matter, and all of the things that go along with that.
[17:37:11] <Ayush Mishra_web_874> Hi everyone, thank you for all the comments! I will address some of the main concerns in the chat here:
@Gorry: In the paper, we assume that the senders are only trying to maximize their throughput. We did this to keep things simple in the paper, but this is obviously not ideal. In our complete model, we will be considering both throughput and queueing delay.
@Martin: Yes, the NE observation does not hold if the gradient at the intersection point is negative. In general, we have observed that the intersection point always has a positive curve, since adding more BBR flows can never _reduce_ the total bandwidth received by the BBR flows.
@Anant: The workloads in these experiments are toy workloads (long flows). We need to look into different flow sizes, workloads and utility functions.
@Theresa, @Nicholas thanks for the resources!
Please feel free to reach out to me at!
PS: @Jake: Noted! I guess it's time to fire up our measurement tool again and see what you guys are up to ;)
PPS: The zoo is only going to get worse. We have also been looking into QUIC implementations of BBR, CUBIC and BBRv2 - and there is already a fair amount a speciation in these implementations.
[17:38:12] <Ayush Mishra_web_874> #TIL the meetecho chat does not format well :(
[17:38:45] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> putting each comment in a separate message might have worked better
[17:39:00] <Jonathan Morton_web_781> I think we can read this though
[17:39:02] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> Did @jJana say "on the channel"? Is that the mailing list, or in slack?
[17:39:15] <Ayush Mishra_web_874> @Jonathan Yes, I should've done that
[17:39:35] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> @Spencer -- I meant on email, at
[17:40:13] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Jana - thanks! I'm still discovering what's on Slack at the IETF ... :grin:
[17:40:18] <Martin Duke_web_661> So is v1 = the -00 draft?
[17:40:19] <Martin Duke_web_661> ish?
[17:40:36] <Praveen Balasubramanian_web_831> Hi Vidhi, I will follow up on your question about GAIN factor offline.
[17:41:04] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> yup, I wouldn't mind doing an ICCRG slack channel if there's interest!
[17:41:19] <Vidhi Goel_web_479> +1 for ICCRG slack channel
[17:41:29] <Roland Bless_web_438> @Martin: yes
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[17:41:35] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Ayush Mishra - providing good content makes it worth us decoding the formatting ...
[17:44:02] <Michael Welzl_web_775> I'm happy that the authors updated the BBR draft. This is so important for this community!
[17:44:08] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> this could be an SVG in a doc right?? :wink:
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[17:45:41] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> that probeRTT trough is a good viz
[17:46:02] <Spencer Dawkins_web_947> @Lucas - yes. I think there are I-Ds with SVG already.
[17:46:07] <Kyle Rose_web_178> Is there an out-of-tree kernel module source package/repo?
[17:46:46] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> - Convert ASCII art diagrams into SVG.
[17:46:53] <Praveen Balasubramanian_web_831> yes Kyle, that's the one we used as reference.
[17:47:01] <Kyle Rose_web_178> Great!
[17:48:15] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> Re "So is v1 = the -00 draft?", yes, the -00 draft is BBRv1. And the -01 draft is the first cut at describing BBRv2. We will expand ASAP.
[17:49:10] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> FYI -- I've created a #iccrg channel inside the IETF slack workspace ( Please join!
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[17:50:01] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> Yes, we have a patch for that one on the TCP side and plan to use ASAP.
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[17:55:24] <Jeongkeun Lee_web_358> Are you considering ECN for both WAN and DC-internal use cases?
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[18:03:58] <Lucas Pardue_web_267> this was my first ICCRG session since the last Prague  meeting. Super interesting, thanks all
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[18:04:02] <Martin Duke_web_661> Top notch, Jana!
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[18:04:03] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> Thanks, Jana!
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[18:04:07] <Tom Jones_web_719> thanks
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[18:04:18] <Anna Brunstrom_web_276> thanks, all, great presentations
[18:04:19] <Michael Welzl_web_775> Great, Jana!  See you all!
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[18:04:37] <Michael Welzl_web_775> Very interesting presentations indeed!
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[18:04:43] <Neal Cardwell_web_814> Re "Are you considering ECN for both WAN and DC-internal use cases?" Yes, we are currently using it for DC-internal cases but do plan on using it for WAN and public Internet cases.
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[18:04:50] <Jana Iyengar_web_296> Thank you everyone, and see you all in March!
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