IETF
httpbis
httpbis@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 22, 2014< ^ >
Julian has set the subject to: https://github.com/httpwg/wg-materials/blob/gh-pages/ietf90/agenda.md
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[17:39:13] <grmocg> o/
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[18:11:07] <זקן אפור> The screen is very blue.
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[18:16:58] <grmocg> Martin-- you watching?
[18:17:52] <Martin Thomson> I'm here
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[18:18:10] <Martin Thomson> I think that we might need someone else to relay for you, but I'll try for now
[18:18:22] <grmocg> Do you mind prodding the mic (or making some other sound) and typing something here at near the same time?
[18:18:33] <grmocg> (Trying to figure out how bad the audio lag is/should we reset the encoder, assuming we can)
[18:18:36] <ראש תחום> I can relay.
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[18:19:16] <grmocg> can you type something here at the same time?
[18:19:22] <grmocg> Attempting to judge delay
[18:19:24] <ראש תחום> dfgh
[18:19:26] <mrex-ietf> audio stream sounds good
[18:19:38] <grmocg> about 5 to 7 seconds.
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[18:19:48] <Martin Thomson> that's good, though it will get worse
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[18:19:58] <grmocg> yo
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[18:20:07] <bortzmeyer> Anyone remote here?
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[18:20:29] <Roberto Peon> Better.
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[18:27:00] <ראש תחום> Mark untangles himself.
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[18:27:04] <ראש תחום> It didn't work.
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[18:27:57] <ראש תחום> Julian is trying to get a mic to work.
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[18:28:13] <ראש תחום> Is Julian audible remotely?
[18:28:20] <c> yes
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[18:29:06] <craigt_bbc> can't see meetecho slides however, is that available in this room?
[18:30:03] <ראש תחום> Don't see the meetecho guy right now.
[18:31:45] <Martin Thomson> there are links to slides in the agenda
[18:31:49] <ראש תחום> No meetecho.  You need to download the slides.
[18:31:55] <Martin Thomson> https://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/agenda
[18:32:02] <craigt_bbc> yup, reverted to that already :)
[18:32:11] <Hervé> Current slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-httpbis-4.pdf
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[18:33:34] <Roberto Peon> yes, listening :)
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[18:37:01] <alessandro amirante> Hi, is anybody having issues with Meetecho?
[18:37:03] <rjS> any remote listeners: is Julian coming through ok?
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[18:37:40] <Steven Bibby> Meetecho too faint - I'm using MP3 stream at http://ietf90streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf907.m3u
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[18:38:07] <Steven Bibby> ...as per 'audio streaming' at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/90/remote-participation.html
[18:38:40] <craigt_bbc> good audio here on the m3u stream
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[18:43:34] <craigt_bbc> anyone got a URL for this list?
[18:43:44] <hiro1017> https://github.com/http2/http2-spec/issues?labels=design&page=1&state=open
[18:43:59] <craigt_bbc> many thanks
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[18:48:02] <mrex-ietf> TLS Cipher suites with ECDHE key exchange are *NOT* on the standards track
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[18:48:41] <mrex-ietf> Microsoft has m
[18:49:05] <mrex-ietf> Microsoft has limited AES-GCM to ECDSA-ECDHE authentication & key exchange
[18:50:34] <mrex-ietf> which is an arbitrarily (silly) limitation to TLS Suite B, entirely ignoring the widespread use of RSA server certificate and the logical preference of RSA_ECDHE with AES-GCM, which Microsoft deliberately omitted
[18:50:45] <craigt_bbc> MTI != only available
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[18:53:01] <Yoav Nir> mrex: Microsoft doesn't have that limitation any more, but it remains in "older" versions. On the bright side, these older versions don't have HTTP/2 either.
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[18:53:28] <mrex-ietf> which hotfix does remove that limitation for windows 7  ??
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[18:54:24] <mrex-ietf> windows 7 has 50% market share, Windows XP has 25.5 % Market share,  Win 8 + 8.1 combined have 12.8% (half of XP), so Win8 is entirely irrelevant here
[18:54:53] <Yoav Nir> IDK. But Windows 7 is an old version. I don't know if that is going to get HTTP/2 either. And if it gets HTTP/2, it will get ECDHE-AES-GCM at the same point.
[18:54:55] <EKR> mrex-ietf: we agreed yesterday to bring ECC onto the standards track.
[18:55:02] <EKR> So it's just a timing issue
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[18:58:01] <mrex-ietf> win7 is the ONLY windows version that matters
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[18:59:15] <craigt_bbc> correc
[18:59:16] <craigt_bbc> t
[18:59:30] <craigt_bbc> yes
[18:59:32] <craigt_bbc> interest
[18:59:40] <craigt_bbc> although still research
[18:59:54] <mrex-ietf> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa374757.aspx
[19:01:54] <craigt_bbc> As a media industry rep, I'd be happy this is closed and re-raised. DASH is a little too speculativeI'm sad to say
[19:02:16] <craigt_bbc> Pausing HTTP2 would be a negative thing
[19:02:31] <Roberto Peon> I'm with you Craig.
[19:02:59] <Roberto Peon> Very interested in DASH, but I suspect that what we have already would be sufficient to do better for DASH than we could otherwise already.
[19:03:43] <craigt_bbc> Agreed, DASH over http1.1 is workable...the improvement with http2 unmodified have yet to be fully explored...
[19:04:08] <Roberto Peon> Yup. And as someone working at YT.. I'm *very* interested :)
[19:04:15] <craigt_bbc> Working with BBC research on this atm
[19:04:49] <craigt_bbc> Well, more just kicking off as part of a 4k workstream...but now i'm definitely off topic
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[19:08:19] <Roberto Peon> Craig-- we (and Herve) and whomever else should all talk about DASH and its 'transport' at some time in the future. Working together on an extension for HTTP2 would be better than doing so individually, I suspect.
[19:09:08] <Hervé> Roberto, Craig, I would be interested in discussing about DASH and HTTP2.
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[19:10:05] <loreto.salvatore> I am also interested to talk about DASH and HTTP2
[19:11:43] <craigt_bbc> Definitely...I'm catching up with research later in the week...I will have more for September...
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[19:13:58] <loreto.salvatore> @Craig please keep me in the loop, I can also help
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[19:14:48] <craigt_bbc> We're just kicking off a development run for http2 fronting our DASH distribution...As i get info (and rights cleared content) I can bring it up on the list
[19:14:55] <craigt_bbc> (going back on topic now)
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[19:25:38] <ted.h> Probably better stated as "incoming traffic to the proxy" is marked appropriately.
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[19:33:13] <craigt_bbc> In my organisation, it would be close to 100%
[19:34:02] <craigt_bbc> (where the organisation boundary is crossed)
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[19:35:45] <massimiliano.pala> slide n. 5
[19:37:17] <Roberto Peon> Wouldn't the proxy be dealing with the traffic anyway, if the traffic was on HTTPS stuff...
[19:37:43] <ראש תחום> You mean, sending HD video via HTTPS ?
[19:38:06] <Roberto Peon> Yup. Lots of video comes in over HTTPS already.
[19:38:11] <craigt_bbc> lync/skype/hangouts they all go through my organisation proxies
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[19:42:51] <rwheeldon> current practice also includes "assume tls" which also breaks stuff
[19:43:50] <EKR> what we are discussing here is that it's going to be TLS
[19:43:51] <rwheeldon> the problem is, how do we trust it? but as an attribute to log and report on it'd be useful by itself - for performance metrics as much as anything
[19:44:03] <EKR> since the ALPN identifier is TLS
[19:44:46] <Roberto Peon> AGreed with Mark-- never seen this as a problem.
[19:45:04] <rwheeldon> ekr:i should have said, "assume https"
[19:45:34] <EKR> rwheldon: right, they are going to have to do traffic analysis to distinguish
[19:46:13] <rwheeldon> on the other hand, it's an easier call to say "does this look like <x>?" than "what is this?"
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[19:46:48] <Roberto Peon> It is arguably more correct to say "does this look like<x>" than to depend on any statement that it is Y.
[19:47:09] <mrex-ietf> I'm curently seeing a problem with TLS through HTTP CONNECT proxies, and that is that they reply "200 OK" before the TCP connect with the final server completes, and if the server doesn't actually listen on the port, they'll silently close() the socket after the TLS client has sent off his TLS ClientHello -- which usually makes the Problem being perceived as a "weird SSL problem" and gets pushed onto the wrong helpdesk
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[19:52:48] <mrex-ietf> the other current problem with HTTP CONNECT proxy traversal is that *ALL* current browser are broken.  If the Proxy returns an error response on HTTP CONNECT (e.g. administratively prohibited) then the error does not get shown to the user in the same way as it would be shown if the GET http://  would be rejected with an error page by the HTTP proxy
[19:53:14] <Roberto Peon> I don't see any value in announcing anything in the ALPN string.
[19:53:19] <EKR> I am worried about Stewart's comment
[19:53:24] <EKR> And I see roberto's too
[19:53:24] <Roberto Peon> (Other than h2, etc, obviously)
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[19:54:43] <mrex-ietf> I currently have to fire up WireShark and collect the HTTP Proxy error message from the network, because none of the Browsers will reveal it to me when HTTP CONNECT fails (is rejected with HTTP 4xx or 5xx by the proxy)
[19:55:59] <massimiliano.pala> please assert more clearly who you are and the affiliation for the remote people
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[20:01:34] <mrex-ietf> huh?   RFCs do not have expiry dates.  I-Ds have expiry dates.
[20:03:34] <Yoav Nir> RFCs expire when they're obsoleted by other RFCs, or when they are reclassified as Historic.
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[20:04:05] <Yoav Nir> I think the claim is that some RFCs are used past the time when they *should* have been obsoleted or reclassified
[20:04:50] <ראש תחום> "sell-by date" would have been a more apt way to put it.
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[20:05:34] <mrex-ietf> solution to the header-field parsing issues:  Kill the complexity, outlaw syntax that requires complex parsers
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[20:07:12] ilari.liusvaara wonders how badly his WWW-Authenticate parser gets things wrong (he didn't have fun writing it).
[20:08:52] <craigt_bbc> tbh...i know of several json based header implementations already
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[20:09:04] <Ben Kaduk> It would be nice to have a better alternative to negotiate, at least.  I like the text from RFC 7236 about it...
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[20:11:46] <rwheeldon> would this be purely for http/2 or on /1 as well?
[20:13:06] <Martin Thomson> rwheeldon: that's not entirely clear, though it could go either way in theory
[20:13:38] <Martin Thomson> then there are the concerns about what an implementation would do to detect support, and all the related deployment issues
[20:13:46] <Martin Thomson> I think that this is a pretty big change
[20:14:04] <rwheeldon> but smaller than hpack :)
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[20:17:08] <Martin Thomson> rwheeldon: bigger
[20:18:50] <rwheeldon> do we want to move to a better encoding that gzip? would "200 OK \r\n Accept-encoding: xz" be useful to browsers?
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[20:20:55] <craigt_bbc> /j
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[20:21:32] <ilari.liusvaara> rwheeldon, xz is quite memory-heavy to decompress (orders of magnitude above gzip). But there might be servers that are willing to decompress it.
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[20:23:01] <ilari.liusvaara> rwheeldon, I actually implemented xz decompressiong (along gzip and bzip2) in one service (but that wasn't HTTP-level compression, but payload-internal compression).
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[20:23:38] <rwheeldon> and did it work well?
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[20:27:44] <ilari.liusvaara> rwheeldon, I have little idea. At least it could compress down the data (button input logs, some textual) nicely.
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[20:28:07] <rwheeldon> ok. ta
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[20:34:21] <ilari.liusvaara> rwheeldon, Gzip 31,464,890 bytes  xz:  25,279,716  That's over concatenation of 2,627 of those files (totalling 1,465,877,799 bytes).
[20:34:55] <rwheeldon> yeah. that sounds about right. dunno what that would mean at web scale - but potentially interesting
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[20:37:58] <ilari.liusvaara> Restricting mostly to text-format ones: 7,417,577 vs. 5,196,000
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[20:40:16] <ilari.liusvaara> rwheeldon, Also, compressing xz is pretty slow (especially at higher levels). That latter collection (about 790MB) took about 75 seconds to compress (on not-so-outdated CPU).
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[20:41:47] <rwheeldon> nothing's perfect :)
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