IETF
httpbis
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Tuesday, 31 July 2012< ^ >
Martin Dürst has set the subject to: IETF HTTPbis Working Group - IETF83 Paris (252a/241)
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[19:58:03] stpeter has set the subject to: IETF HTTPbis Working Group | IETF 84 | audio: http://ietf84streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf847.m3u
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[19:59:13] <tfossati> hi peter, is audio streaming already up ?
[19:59:35] <stpeter> tfossati: not a minute or two ago, at least not for me
[19:59:55] <stpeter> in my experience today, the streaming has been starting a bit late
[20:00:25] <SM> The stream is not working. What is HTTPbis going to do about that?:)
[20:00:53] <stpeter> hi SM :)
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[20:01:30] <SM> Hi Peter, we need to recharter this WG to fix the stream:)
[20:01:31] <tfossati> ok stream started :-)
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[20:02:26] <stpeter> the stream is working, but the audio level is quiet on my machine
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[20:04:21] <barryleiba> Ist besser?
[20:04:26] <SM> Julian, you are learning French?
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[20:09:40] <fielding> section 5 of p4 is a new section on precedence of conditional fields
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[20:12:40] <fielding> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
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[20:16:27] <stpeter> Eliot Lear at the mic?
[20:16:33] <SM> Yes
[20:16:38] <resnick> Yes
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[20:19:19] <fielding> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/report/9
[20:20:24] <fielding> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/22
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[20:25:51] <fielding> distinction for "selected representation" header fields is described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-20#page-47
[20:26:31] <fielding> mnot is on http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/report/10
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[20:27:06] <fielding> hi julian, mnot says you will finish the spec by Aug 31
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[20:29:45] <fielding> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/wiki
[20:30:26] <fielding> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/wiki/HttpAuthProposals
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[20:42:19] <fielding> Yutaka OIWA speaking about adding multilegged authentication mechanism in general to HTTP (p7 bis for HTTP/2)
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[20:45:13] <fielding> EKR speaking about how it is unclear what problem is being addressed
[20:47:40] <=JeffH> roberto peon at mic
[20:48:09] <=JeffH> ekr @ mic of course
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[20:49:34] <=JeffH> leif johansson @ mic
[20:50:43] <fielding> yutaka at mic
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[20:53:42] <Sean Turner> we look forward to all the apps folks coming to security ;)
[20:54:01] <barryleiba> I keep pushing that......
[20:54:34] <SM> The barely legal proposal?
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[20:57:17] <fielding> Tim Bray speaking about code 451 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tbray-http-legally-restricted-status-01
[21:02:22] <fielding> Redirect 451 /old/uri
[21:03:23] <stpeter> hey, that's ironic, folks decided that the Internet could be subject to censorship only after ~25 years ;-)
[21:03:40] <SM> Wait, .au has filtering:)
[21:04:29] <Martin Thomson> as a good reason to leave as any
[21:05:36] <Ted Hardie> Look, this is a wonderful opportunity to be snarky; why are we resisting it?
[21:05:51] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: not sure :)
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[21:06:05] <SM> Drop the SHOULD, publish this little draft and wait for the world to complain
[21:06:28] <m&m> <CENSORED>
[21:06:39] <mcmanus> SM - happy to relay to mic if you want... just indicate in the chat log
[21:06:57] <SM> mcmanus, please relay
[21:07:35] <=JeffH> sm: :)
[21:08:06] <stpeter> MIC: I disagree with Barry, relying on the human-readable text of the status message is not easy to localize for end users
[21:08:19] <m&m> +1
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[21:10:38] <m&m> content-negotiation for localization only works if every HTTP server on the internet localizes its messages, and all programmable statuses
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[21:11:33] <resnick> Why is this different than 403?
[21:11:46] <Eliot Lear> that's the question, pete
[21:12:01] <SM> transparency to pressure people who like the law
[21:12:02] <Ted Hardie> 403 means "I will not let you have this"; 451 means "I am not permitted to let you have this".
[21:12:12] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: :)
[21:12:23] <Ted Hardie> The result is: you don't get it. Who you complain to may be different.
[21:12:59] <m&m> if I were a content distributor, I can see the appeal of 451 as a "don't blame me, I'm just the messenger!"
[21:13:06] <m&m> but I'm not a content distributor (-:
[21:13:10] <resnick> Can I use 451 if I run the web server for my boss, who is an ass, who says that I can't give this to you?
[21:13:24] <m&m> resnick: I would expect taht
[21:13:26] <m&m> that even
[21:13:39] <yoiwa> But all Web servers are just the messenger in terms of protocols, isn't it?
[21:13:53] <Ted Hardie> If you believe it to be a legal demand (in this case employment contract), yes.
[21:14:33] <Ted Hardie> The ontology I would use would be 1) contract 2) suit 3) legal restriction by jurisdiction (named here)
[21:14:36] <SM> Gov can legislate not to use a 451 through a NSL
[21:14:50] <fielding> 4xx is for authoritative error responses; 5xx is for non-authoritative (network path specific) error responses.
[21:16:17] <stpeter> I think the color of this bikeshed ought to be red
[21:16:33] <Ted Hardie> If this does not get down, I think we should burn 451 from the registry in protest.
[21:16:34] <m&m> no! it should be mauve!
[21:16:51] <Ted Hardie> er, "get done"
[21:16:57] <Eliot Lear> ted: occupy iana?
[21:17:10] <fielding> That 4xx/5xx distinction is important for clients because 5xx errors might be worked around by choosing a different intermediary for the request.
[21:17:10] <stpeter> Eliot Lear: :)
[21:17:18] <Ted Hardie> mime type: application/fireman+bradbury
[21:17:18] <SM> Ah, Larry wants MIME sniffing:)
[21:17:30] <Ted Hardie> @SM !
[21:18:58] <nygren@gmail.com/barnowl4980D3C4> I originally thought this was an April Fools proposal...
[21:19:06] <yoiwa> p2-semantics says 4xx is client error and 5xx is server error... Which is this case?
[21:19:21] <SM> The best RFCs are published on April 1st
[21:19:30] <Eliot Lear> tee shirt time: 451: My boss is a Jerk!
[21:19:53] <fielding> that was Alissa Cooper at the mic
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[21:20:39] <fielding> and Roberto Peon
[21:21:17] <m&m> headers!
[21:21:50] <yoiwa> Is that what Mark has described in yesterday's APPSAWG, isn't it?
[21:22:04] <m&m> HTTP/1.1 451 legal takedown
not-a-x-legal-takedown: my boss is a jerk
[21:22:09] <Ted Hardie> "If you had a VPN tunnel endpoint in the EU, this would have been available…. I'm just sayin''"
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[21:23:13] <yuioku.yj> As for we wanting truly, “political reason” ?
[21:23:36] <fielding> Ian Fette at the mic
[21:23:38] <m&m> someone should remind the people in this room that it's not only users on the other end of an HTTP response
[21:24:03] <yoiwa> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-http-problem/ is useful? >m&m
[21:24:15] <resnick> @psa: Blue, dammit.
[21:24:23] <tfossati> a possible use case could include HTTP adaptive streaming of a video broadcast intended for a specific region. Just to make a set-top-box'es (i.e. not a browser) happy...
[21:25:17] <m&m> yoiwa: my comment is really rhetorical
[21:25:42] <yoiwa> I see :) > m&m
[21:26:05] <m&m> stpeter: I think the bikeshed need to be a lean-to
[21:26:59] <stpeter> oh goodie, we're humming!
[21:27:34] <Martin Thomson> for those of us that are remote, will the hums be here?
[21:27:48] <stpeter> Martin Thomson: yes, they should be counted
[21:27:53] <SM> It depends on how Mark defines censorship:)
[21:28:08] <mcmanus> humm away
[21:28:23] <Martin Thomson> they are lookin at me strangely in this room
[21:28:30] <stpeter> :)
[21:28:36] <Ted Hardie> And are you sure that's the humming?
[21:28:37] <stpeter> mcmanus: thanks!
[21:28:38] <Ted Hardie> Just asking
[21:29:03] <Martin Thomson> ted: wasn't humming
[21:29:08] <mcmanus> remoties have opinions - I'll proxy them pseudo anonymous. I'd vote now before mark gets to the hum :)
[21:29:10] <m&m> equivocate!
[21:29:22] <doug.otis> Avoiding users calling into their support centers makes sense.
[21:29:29] <stpeter> hum
[21:29:37] <mcmanus> humms were about 50/50
[21:29:41] <stpeter> mcmanus: yeah
[21:29:44] <Martin Thomson> I hum against humming
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[21:30:02] <m&m> I silently protest Martin Thomson's anti-hum hum
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