Thursday, March 24, 2022< ^ >
alexamirante has set the subject to: HTTPAPI at IETF 112 -
Room Configuration
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[08:49:48] <Francesca Palombini_web_658> hello!
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[08:50:10] <Francesca Palombini_web_658> meetecho: we get a "Unable to attach to media feed" notification on screen, first time I see this this week :)
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[08:50:19] <Meetecho> We're aware, working on it
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[08:50:31] <Francesca Palombini_web_658> ok thanks! :)
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[08:50:39] <Erik Wilde_web_327> same here, refreshing every couple of seconds...
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[08:51:32] <Roberto Polli_web_173> meet-oo :)
[08:51:34] <Erik Wilde_web_164> it seems you can unmute the mic but not mute again?
[08:51:53] <Erik Wilde_web_164> i think @roberto is suffering from this as i did...
[08:52:13] <Roberto Polli_web_173> Erik, I will then toggle the mic via laptop controls
[08:52:18] <Roberto Polli_web_173> ^R now
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[08:52:41] <Erik Wilde_web_164> just seems a bit odd to have a toggle button that only toggles one way...
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[08:53:01] <Erik Wilde_web_164> hey darrel!
[08:53:09] <Meetecho> Erik: it can sometimes happen after an automatic restore that fails, have you tried refreshing the page?
[08:53:16] <Roberto Polli_web_619> btw good morning everyone :)
[08:53:43] <Darrel Miller_web_503> Good day to all
[08:53:56] <Erik Wilde_web_164> yes but it didn't help and also didn't help right now.
[08:54:14] <Erik Wilde_web_164> as is true for @roberto... ;-)
[08:54:50] <Darrel Miller_web_503> Technical issues in remote meeting software. Makes me feel right at home :-)
[08:55:05] <Meetecho> We're restarting the room, you may be kicked out temporarily
[08:55:19] <Roberto Polli_web_619> thx++ Meetecho
[08:55:30] <Francesca Palombini_web_658> :thumbsup:
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[08:58:24] <Meetecho> Can you confirm it's ok now?
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[08:59:06] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> it's ok!
[08:59:19] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> thank you!
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[08:59:38] <Erik Wilde_web_824> thanks for fixing things!
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[09:00:01] <Erik Wilde_web_824> @roberto, does muting work now?
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[09:00:42] <Erik Wilde_web_824> wow that meeting room is empty!
[09:01:00] <Roberto Polli_web_731> @erik I'm toggling mic via the laptop ctrl
[09:01:00] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> it's a very big room!
[09:01:04] <Erik Wilde_web_824> ;-)
[09:01:37] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> also this is conflicting with saag :( (and other sessions, but that one is usually pretty full)
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[09:02:22] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Also conflicting savnet, which is likely to draw a fair number of folks.
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[09:03:40] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> also there are a number of people who managed to get out of the camera view :) there are around 10 people in room
[09:04:04] <mnot> I guess asking them to sit near each other would be counterproductive
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[09:04:26] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Heh. I think the advice is to specifically not sit near other people. :)
[09:04:45] <Rich Salz_web_719> anyone hear me?
[09:04:45] <mnot> chair seem awful close to each other
[09:04:49] <mnot> chairs
[09:04:53] <mnot> no
[09:05:05] <mnot> better
[09:05:23] <Erik Wilde_web_824> yup.
[09:05:29] <Darrel Miller_web_576> Chairs act as spacers :-)
[09:05:31] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Took me a second to realize you were talking about "things that you sit in" and not "people who run meetings". :)
[09:05:39] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> sounds good now
[09:06:01] <mnot> some feedback, I think from rich
[09:06:56] <mnot> actually, I think the echo might be from roberto?
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[09:07:25] <mnot> hmm, no still there
[09:07:36] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Yeah, echo is there, but pretty slight for me.
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[09:08:11] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I can do some minutes today
[09:08:14] <mnot> I can help
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[09:08:41] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> Thank you Martin and Mark!
[09:09:06] <Martin Thomson_web_913> use meetecho's slide thing Rich
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[09:11:37] <Martin Thomson_web_913> have roberto drive
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[09:12:30] <Rich Salz_web_719> @MT: yes i should have done that.
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[09:15:10] <Martin Thomson_web_913> what does it mean for one of these to be required?
[09:15:41] <Martin Thomson_web_913> thanks
[09:16:42] <Rich Salz_web_719> The arrow on the right side is brilliant.
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[09:18:41] <mnot> do the chairs want discussion of these issues?
[09:18:57] <mnot> ah, he's digging in, never mind
[09:19:03] <Rich Salz_web_719> :)
[09:19:13] <Darrel Miller_web_576> Sure.  I think we have plenty of time.
[09:20:51] <> Separating to a separate RateLimit-Policy seems nice to also allow it
to be fields/comments on the other fields beyond just RateLimit-Limit.
[09:25:47] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> I'm finding a disappointing number of implementers who don't currently use a library for structured headers and don't particularly want to get one. :/
[09:27:04] <mnot> I could also see separate  policy and state fields
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[09:29:18] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I would expect the adaptation, if any, to occur in OHAI
[09:29:56] <Martin Thomson_web_913> roberto: are they trying to avoid using a SF parser?
[09:30:02] <Martin Thomson_web_913> that would be a bad sign
[09:30:21] <Martin Thomson_web_913> not you, but the others who are giving this feedback
[09:30:47] <Erik Wilde_web_824> from what i see and hear, even though SF has made complex fields much easier to use, we might design past many/most developers if we don't make easy parsing a design goal.
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[09:32:16] <Erik Wilde_web_824> can we combine using SF and easy-to-use fields?
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[09:36:21] <Erik Wilde_web_824> it's good to use SF. but we can still try to avoid complex models. that was my point.
[09:37:17] <Erik Wilde_web_824> ;-)
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[09:40:23] <Erik Wilde_web_824> hans-joerg is making a point similar to darrel. and both are good points.
[09:40:37] <Martin Thomson_web_913> the compression efficiency thing is a real problem here
[09:40:46] <Darrel Miller_web_576> Yay, we just transparently switched from virtual queue to physical queue. Go hybrid!
[09:40:49] <mnot> BRON THAT IS THE PROBLEM
[09:42:47] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> THEY WILL DO IT ANYWAY
[09:43:07] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> so yeah, I agree no half/half.  All structured or all atomic
[09:43:13] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Are we trying to solve the problem of "people on the Internet are bad at the Internet"?
[09:43:15] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> or at least, no field that can be one or the other
[09:43:30] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Because that sounds hard.
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[09:43:52] <Hans-Jörg Happel_web_262> Perhaps unpopular opinion: perhaps a JSON-based API rate limit description would be more appropriate; HTTP headers just pointing there in case of exceeding? (and developers being able to pre-consume)
[09:44:10] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> .well-known/rate-limts
[09:44:25] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Oof.
[09:44:45] <Martin Thomson_web_913> was that a sick YAML burn?
[09:44:46] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> we definitely need a .not-well0known/ registry
[09:45:06] <Bron Gondwana_web_168> .frequently-ignored/
[09:45:21] <Rich Salz_web_719> :)
[09:45:45] <Rich Salz_web_719> more seriously, a single .well-known seems like it doesn't cover "cheap" and "Expensive" operations.
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[09:46:04] <Martin Thomson_web_913> who wants a JSON schema in YAML?  have they considered a stronger prescription?
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[09:47:11] <Darrel Miller_web_576> JSON Schema in YAML is the only way we do it over OpenAPI world.
[09:47:14] <Martin Thomson_web_913> should this be json-schema+json ?
[09:47:18] <mnot> .quite-obscure/
[09:47:46] <Martin Thomson_web_913> wow
[09:47:51] <Martin Thomson_web_913> impressive
[09:49:29] <Martin Thomson_web_913> json is less easy to use than YAML?  that's the first time I've heard that phrase uttered
[09:49:29] <Darrel Miller_web_576> But as YAML is a superset of JSON, every JSON Schema is actually YAML anyway :-)
[09:50:27] <Martin Thomson_web_913> darrel said squatting, I just implied it
[09:50:35] <Martin Thomson_web_913> the problem is that there are many schema languages already
[09:51:20] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I have a good idea about why there is this much lag, but you won't like the answer
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[09:52:51] <mnot> Does it involve Australia?
[09:52:58] <Martin Thomson_web_913> only partly
[09:53:11] <Martin Thomson_web_913> that's a multiplicative factor
[09:53:32] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> +1 mnot + we now have a Mediaman working group, let's make sure to involve them (the mailing list is media-types, so they would get involved... they are also meeting)
[09:53:56] <Roberto Polli_web_731> It would be great to onboard the mediaman wg asap
[09:54:32] <mnot> In _other)_ registries, an RFC isn't necessary to make a registration in all circumstances. Just saying while MEDIAMAN is open...
[09:55:07] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> there is discussion ongoing in mediaman just about that :)
[09:55:32] <Erik Wilde_web_824> not sure that many people will go and look at the actual spec. but if one part holds up others, then splitting may be a good idea.
[09:55:56] <Martin Thomson_web_913> push back is entirely appropriate when talking about a suffix for JSON-LD
[09:56:48] <Erik Wilde_web_824> true that an RFC is not technically necessary, but it's good for community discussion and to have an easily discoverable document.
[09:56:50] <Martin Thomson_web_913> yeah, I think that +yaml is doing a real service
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[09:57:12] <mnot> +1
[09:57:27] <Martin Thomson_web_913> a document entitled "application/yaml and the +yaml media type suffix" or something like that would be a very valuable thing
[09:57:52] <mnot> how about TOML, if that community is willing?
[09:57:59] <mnot> (there's an open bug for it on their repo)
[09:58:07] <Martin Thomson_web_913> TOML is less widely used, but also a useful thing
[09:58:17] <mnot> I might mention this if I can dig that bug up again
[09:58:18] <Martin Thomson_web_913> (I have no cycles to do this, just appreciation)
[09:58:23] <mnot> +1
[09:58:26] <Erik Wilde_web_824> volunteering for the YAML thing...
[09:58:41] <Erik Wilde_web_824> ;-)
[09:59:07] <Martin Thomson_web_913> yay Erik!
[09:59:31] <Martin Thomson_web_913> YARR! yet another registration rfc!
[09:59:40] <Roberto Polli_web_731> :P
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[09:59:54] <Erik Wilde_web_824> yay roberto!
[10:01:06] <mnot> I really like the project view - well done Darrel!
[10:01:08] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> this is really cool, thanks for setting it up!
[10:01:20] <Martin Thomson_web_913> this makes it too easy to see what is going on
[10:01:27] <Erik Wilde_web_824> this was quite a revelation, darrel! such a cool new feature!
[10:01:29] <Martin Thomson_web_913> it's almost like this is very well organized
[10:01:32] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> *too* easy XD
[10:01:39] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> I think this is cheating at IETF. :D
[10:01:54] Philipp Tiesel_web_587 leaves the room
[10:02:26] <Erik Wilde_web_824> true. this isn't driven by CLI? that cannot be ok!
[10:03:13] <Erik Wilde_web_824> darrel just earlier today fixed some permission thing for me.
[10:03:58] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I also think that this taxonomy is useful; nice work Darrel.
[10:06:47] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> good point, clear to know who is responsible for changing this field/keep this updated
[10:07:08] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> s/clear/good
[10:07:10] <Erik Wilde_web_824> so this is just a status view and not additional process. that's good.
[10:08:14] <mnot> I think the status column is fine - -just want to be clear about the norms around it
[10:08:15] <Erik Wilde_web_824> how easy it is to share labels across repos? not so easy, i think?
[10:08:21] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I like the unified status column
[10:08:29] <Martin Thomson_web_913> labels are per-repo
[10:08:32] <Erik Wilde_web_824> i like the current approach.
[10:08:33] <mnot> that's one of the annoying things about gh
[10:08:53] <mnot> You *can* actually create org-wide default labels, but that's only for new repos, I think
[10:09:56] <Erik Wilde_web_824> hello SF! ;-)
[10:10:12] <Rich Salz_web_719> haha
[10:12:21] <Martin Thomson_web_913> the draft does seem to be useful, but it looks like it needs some attention, that's all
[10:13:02] <Martin Thomson_web_913> please do 7807
[10:15:12] <Martin Thomson_web_913> we don't have a good track record with warnings
[10:15:12] <Rich Salz_web_719> 99 problems and the rate ain't one
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[10:15:36] <Erik Wilde_web_824> as a suggestion: what about starting to use github discussions? i like using those for things that are not yet issues (such as the RFC 7807 report as a header), but then again it would be another category of "things" to track.
[10:15:46] <Martin Thomson_web_913> maybe the right answer for warnings is a request header field called "Lint-This: ?1"
[10:16:21] <Roberto Polli_web_731> It can have value...
[10:16:30] <Erik Wilde_web_824> the dreaded "warning" word...
[10:18:04] <Rich Salz_web_719> Mark did set up a discussion area for "new work" IIRC
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[10:21:53] <Erik Wilde_web_824> i'd suggest to use URIs for new standard properties instead of weird ugly prefixes.
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[10:26:12] <Erik Wilde_web_824> "wemessedupinRFC7807-xxx"
[10:26:29] <mnot> no, "markmessedupinrfc7808" :)
[10:26:31] <Roberto Polli_web_731> don't like $ stuff
[10:27:05] <Rich Salz_web_719> I like it -- r$
[10:27:45] <Rich Salz_web_719> (just kidding, no opinion really)
[10:28:08] <Erik Wilde_web_824> yes, assuming machinery being used is a slippery slope.
[10:28:27] <Erik Wilde_web_824> markmessedupinrfc7808-xxx
[10:29:26] <Erik Wilde_web_824> thanks mark.
[10:32:13] leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[10:34:27] <mnot> That's not actually why CDNs rewrite the Date
[10:35:00] <Jonathan Lennox_web_677> Not being very HTTP-savvy: does there need to be an error description for "my replay protection needs the request to have a Date header, but you didn't include one"?  Or is there already something defined for that?
[10:35:22] <mnot> Search for Edith Cohen's paper forget the title atm
[10:35:39] <Jonathan Lennox_web_677> Cool
[10:36:07] <mnot> Ah, here it is:
[10:36:28] <Roberto Polli_web_731> I appreciate the doc is related to timestamp information and not only date
[10:36:45] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> I guess another question is - does this belong in httpapi?
[10:36:47] <Roberto Polli_web_731> I'd probably change the name to "timestamp information ... "
[10:37:16] <Roberto Polli_web_731> I have in general doubts on the use of Date
[10:40:31] <Mike Bishop_web_972> If your clock is badly wrong, won't TLS fail before you ever make a request?
[10:41:21] <Rich Salz_web_719> much TLS cert verification has an option to ignore expiration dates because clocks are bad.
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[10:42:28] <Erik Wilde_web_824> yes, that seems like it, martin.
[10:42:41] <mnot>     My audio on meetecho cuts out for ~~2 seconds every time I mute; it's extremely distracting
[10:43:01] <mnot> we're talking about a much smaller window here, I think
[10:44:37] <Darrel Miller_web_576>
[10:44:58] <Martin Thomson_web_913> mnot: same, it's not *quite* two seconds of cutout, but it's difficult to keep following
[10:45:45] <Meetecho> Mark: that's because when you switch a different PeerConnection is created, so it may take longer for you. You can try keeping the mic floor up, and locally mute iusing the mic icon in the bottom right
[10:46:00] <Meetecho> That way the switch should be immediate instead
[10:46:22] <mnot> Meetecho: what's common between Martin and I is that we're in Australia.
[10:46:54] <Meetecho> Yep, I suspected distance playing a role: the local mute thing would allow you to keep thatsame PeerConnection always up, so no need to switch that
[10:47:02] <mnot> ok will try, thx
[10:47:24] <Erik Wilde_web_824> i don't think we even mentioned linkset. that's fine for me, but just as a note.
[10:47:26] <Martin Thomson_web_913> I will do the same; though I wonder why the product couldn't do the same for anyone who unmutes (I can understand why thisisn't a default)
[10:48:32] <Martin Thomson_web_913> wfm
[10:48:35] <Erik Wilde_web_824> the "date until spec" seems like a perfect segway for linkset...
[10:48:38] <Martin Thomson_web_913> priority order is probably all you need
[10:48:43] <Meetecho> When you're active you're plugged directly in the audio mixer, while passive subscribers receive from a separate backend optimized for broadcasting
[10:49:27] <Erik Wilde_web_824> yes please, twitterbot! i like the HTTPWG one.
[10:49:37] <Martin Thomson_web_913> certainly RFC publication; WGLC
[10:49:41] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> yes, priority is what I'm looking for - estimating timelines is usually only a good exercise for the wg and gets agreement on expectations, so can be useful, but up to whatever the wg decides :)
[10:49:47] <Erik Wilde_web_824> i have no idea.
[10:50:26] <Martin Thomson_web_913> Mark's video has a nice green line along the bottom, it's like the codec is borked
[10:50:44] <Jonathan Lennox_web_677> Or maybe the camera
[10:50:56] <Martin Thomson_web_913> true dat, lots of things to go wrong here
[10:50:59] <mnot> not locally
[10:50:59] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> linkset!
[10:51:04] <Erik Wilde_web_824> ;-)
[10:51:18] <Martin Thomson_web_913> anything to share Erik?
[10:51:22] <Erik Wilde_web_824> we're in fourth last call!
[10:51:35] <Martin Thomson_web_913> so only three more to go?
[10:52:10] Alan Ford_web_727 leaves the room
[10:52:16] <Erik Wilde_web_824> i think there's last last call but last[0] is a hidden variable.
[10:52:40] <Erik Wilde_web_824> and i am cheerful, actually, just kidding here. thanks everybody for making this move forward.
[10:53:02] <Erik Wilde_web_824> -09 is published.
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[10:55:02] <Erik Wilde_web_824> thanks rich and darrel!
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[10:55:07] <mnot> Thanks!
[10:55:09] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> thanks everybody!
[10:55:12] <Benson Muite_web_223> Thanks.
[10:55:17] <Erik Wilde_web_824> bye everybody!
[10:55:19] <Chris Lemmons_web_176> Thanks.
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[10:55:35] <Francesca Palombini_web_963> meetecho: session over :)
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