Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
meetecho-alexamirante has set the subject to: HTTPAPI at IETF 111 -
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[11:37:17] alexamirante has set the subject to: HTTPAPI at IETF 112 -
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[11:58:11] <Darrel Miller_web_249> Good day to all!
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[11:59:47] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> Hi Rich
[12:00:02] <Martin Thomson_web_783> I only now realize that Rich has his name in the background.
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[12:00:15] <Rich Salz_web_248> It says "The great RICH has spoken"
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[12:00:29] <francesca> hello hello
[12:00:30] <Rich Salz_web_248> an ironic, i think, gift from my wife.
[12:00:33] <Martin Thomson_web_783> not enough pixels to see anything else, but that's ... modest
[12:00:47] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> Crazy Rich {Insert demographic here}
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[12:03:28] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> yeah, I can take notes
[12:03:46] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> yep
[12:04:28] Ali Begen_web_589 joins the room
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[12:04:51] <Alexey Melnikov_web_647> Just don’t use the ACME link as in the slides ;-)
[12:05:22] Sean Turner_web_588 joins the room
[12:05:25] <Darrel Miller_web_249> Apparently the video is on the East Coast and still waking up
[12:05:29] <mnot> no
[12:05:32] <Martin Thomson_web_783> it's bizarre
[12:05:34] <mnot> I see 1/4 of it
[12:05:38] <Erik Wilde_web_983> super slow.
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[12:06:09] <Martin Thomson_web_783> much better
[12:06:26] <francesca> slides can also be found here:
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[12:13:35] <Darrel Miller_web_249> I much prefer QUERY over SEARCH.
[12:13:46] Sanjay Dalal_web_333 joins the room
[12:14:59] <Erik Wilde_web_983> same here, it's better to start over.
[12:15:17] <Phil Archer_web_329> Just absorbing that
[12:15:26] <Erik Wilde_web_983> looks very useful!
[12:15:50] <Erik Wilde_web_983> it has been a long time people either (misusing) GET with a body or having to report to POST.
[12:15:56] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> Indeed, looks useful
[12:16:15] <Hiroyuki Goto_web_349> A trivial question about example, is content-length is unnecessary?content-length
[12:17:18] <Erik Wilde_web_983> GraphQL comes to mind...
[12:17:55] <Darrel Miller_web_249> Yes, the GraphQL group were hoping this would become a thing
[12:18:55] <Darrel Miller_web_249> I took the example directly from the draft.
[12:19:06] <Justin Richer_web_664> this is a perfect fit for the ACME use case, IMHO
[12:19:22] <Justin Richer_web_664> FAT_GET
[12:19:26] <Mike Bishop_web_142> Yes, this is effectively the semantics of a GET, but with a body forming part of the request.
[12:19:27] <Kenneth Murchison_web_797> FETCH?
[12:19:27] <Erik Wilde_web_983> it might make sense to add a section for people "migrating" from POST.
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[12:19:52] <Justin Richer_web_664> @Erik that's a good idea
[12:19:53] <Erik Wilde_web_983> because this might be one of the main reasons where people might come from.
[12:20:05] <Erik Wilde_web_983> will do!
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[12:23:45] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> Sounds useful, but without reading the draft I don’t understand the example…
[12:23:58] <Darrel Miller_web_249> I think the question for every draft should be "is there any reason not to use structured headers?"
[12:24:28] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> @Darrel: rightly so
[12:26:47] <Martin Thomson_web_783> var-base isn't straightforward
[12:27:17] <Darrel Miller_web_249> @martin Could you speak to why?
[12:30:36] Wanghong Yang_web_111 joins the room
[12:31:08] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> Yes, I can see slides
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[12:33:35] <Phil Archer_web_329> Currently being implemented by Johnson and Johnson, Proctor & Gamble, among others
[12:38:27] <mnot> First, sacrifice a goat.
[12:39:04] <Phil Archer_web_329> *Being impemented* (i.e. not  yet implemented by those big companies)
[12:39:04] <Erik Wilde_web_983> let me get that goat right now...
[12:39:27] <Sean Turner_web_588> do two :)
[12:39:33] <Per Andersson_web_706> so i'm an actual vegan. is that a problem for the ietf? i thought the note well would avoid these things. disappointed to have these things cloud my participation.
[12:40:23] <francesca> yes :)
[12:40:26] <francesca> Palombini :)
[12:40:50] <Sean Turner_web_588> @per anderssson no
[12:41:20] <francesca> FYI, except for the usual review, I pay particular attention to:
[12:41:43] <francesca> "usual review" = comments as any other participants might have
[12:41:46] <Sean Turner_web_588> very fun dinner in Paris at a nice vegan place with tls wg folks ;)
[12:42:32] <Sean Turner_web_588> yeah!
[12:43:02] <Erik Wilde_web_983> thanks, rich. i'll of course help as much as necessary/possible.
[12:45:21] <Rich Salz_web_248> your biggest "job" will be resonding to Francesca's feedback and then the whole IESG review. :)
[12:45:34] <Sean Turner_web_588> yes :)
[12:46:00] <Erik Wilde_web_983> there still is the (expired) warning spec out there...
[12:46:40] <Erik Wilde_web_983>
[12:50:22] <Rich Salz_web_248> I am sorry if I offended someone with my vegan "joke"  I was trying to be inclusive, saying we don't need to kill anything for our process.  Sorry if my wording upset anyone, my fault.
[12:51:07] <Erik Wilde_web_983> @per, in case you disliked me holding up my little wooden horse: i am vegetarian but simply like joking around. i am sorry if that offended you.
[12:52:26] <Mary Barnes_web_859> @Per Andersen We have a document that addresses the fact that there are IETFers that eat and/or need particular types of diets:   So, you are welcome in IETF ;)
[12:53:37] <Rich Salz_web_248> Yes, without a doubt please forgive us and we REALLY WANT your contributions.  If you want to talk further, is my email.
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[12:59:01] <Per Andersson_web_706> thanks all, happy to participate
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[13:01:19] <Per Andersson_web_706> just remember that not all people tell when they're the but of a joke (and don't like it); hence path of least resistance might be to stop participating.
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[13:04:43] <Martin Thomson_web_783> Retry-After has an ambiguous scope, why not this also?
[13:05:10] <mnot> Because it's annoying
[13:05:24] <Martin Thomson_web_783> and we can't retroactively fix Retry-After?
[13:05:46] <mnot> We tried and decided we couldn't.
[13:05:48] <Martin Thomson_web_783> Thanks.
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[13:07:52] <Sanjay Dalal_web_333> :) ease of use I was thinking about
[13:08:29] <Darrel Miller_web_249> We'll fix OpenAPI :-)
[13:09:07] <Erik Wilde_web_983> do it, @darrel. it's easy, there's almost no adoption out there.
[13:09:27] <Justin Richer_web_664> Strong disagree on polymorphic types but that's philosophical differences :)
[13:10:36] <Erik Wilde_web_983> it's probably some bor mark wrote...
[13:10:43] <Erik Wilde_web_983> s/bor/bot/
[13:10:53] <mnot> no but that's not a bad idea...
[13:17:06] <Erik Wilde_web_983> that's a good point: general API mechanism vs OData feature option.
[13:17:47] <Sanjay Dalal_web_333> no harm to add on #4
[13:18:16] <mnot>
[13:18:34] <Erik Wilde_web_983> yay irakli's draft!
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[13:20:23] <Erik Wilde_web_983> it's not "heathcheck API", it's "API healthcheck", @darrel. or in the end it's probably an "API healthcheck API"...
[13:20:36] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> damn I missed that bit that Mark was responding to, distracted by something
[13:22:18] <mnot> Darrell: You can handle more drafts than this, trust me :)
[13:22:27] <Darrel Miller_web_249> haha
[13:22:30] <mnot> s/ll/l/
[13:23:41] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> @Bron: I think Mark encouraged other people to add their own ideas to work on
[13:23:42] <Erik Wilde_web_983> exactly. RFC 7807 is pretty successful. because it's a convenient building block.
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[13:24:40] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> I wasn't doing anything other than trying to go to the chat tab
[13:24:43] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> operator error
[13:24:49] <Martin Thomson_web_783> don't worry
[13:24:51] <Martin Thomson_web_783> move on
[13:24:59] <Martin Thomson_web_783> Bron just hit the wrong button by mistake
[13:25:16] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> I need to cycle between chat to see what people are saying here, and the people list to see who's talking
[13:25:28] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> because this interface is a twisty little maze of interaction patterns
[13:25:32] <Martin Thomson_web_783> I don't think that Bron is entirely to blame, meetecho has some Fitts Law issues
[13:25:55] <mnot> don't blame the user...
[13:26:01] <Martin Thomson_web_783> indeed
[13:26:02] <Justin Richer_web_664> one size fitts all
[13:26:25] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> blame me a bit, I have been trying to multi-task with shmoo and doing a poor job of both part of the time
[13:26:39] <Martin Thomson_web_783> show that you can finish something before you can take more work on
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[13:27:43] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> You are not yet at the point where you need to have “1 in, 1 out” rule for working drafts
[13:27:43] <alexamirante> FYI in case you didn't notice, there's also a "Speaking" label that tells you who's currently speaking without having to switch to the "Participants" tab
[13:28:00] <mnot> OTOH if you have more specs in flights, you'll finish things more often, on average
[13:28:05] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> @alexamirate - it's yet another place to look, and it's unreliable
[13:28:10] <Erik Wilde_web_983> linkset is looking good, and deprecation isn't too far away i hope...
[13:28:25] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> it cuts in and out - which is fine for glancing, not so good for noting down names correctly into minutes
[13:28:57] <Mike Bishop_web_142>
[13:28:58] <mnot>
[13:29:01] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> it's insanely poor UX design, the "Speaking" thing, it's nowhere near the video of people which is the other indicator of what's happening
[13:29:11] <Justin Richer_web_664> HAIR
[13:29:15] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> eyetracking somebody using this interface would be an interesting exercise
[13:29:15] <Darrel Miller_web_249>
[13:29:41] <alexamirante> Bron: it's as reliable as the yellow bubble, as the information source is exactly the same.
[13:29:46] <francesca> as far as I can tell, the 9 months IESG charter review was never done - that is on me
[13:30:22] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> alexamirante: it's not as reliable as the "who's microphone is on"
[13:30:28] <Erik Wilde_web_983> sounds like we're on probation...
[13:30:32] <francesca> This is the first time I encounter this type of requirement in a charter text, so I need to look a bit more what exactly that process would look like, but I will let the wg know how it progresses
[13:30:50] <francesca> Wouldn't say probation :) Just trying to follow the charter to a T
[13:31:41] <francesca> "To assess whether the group is functioning well, this charter will be reviewed by the IESG nine months after chartering." is the text
[13:33:15] <Alexey Melnikov_web_780> @Francesca: this check doesn’t have to be very formal. You are the boss, so you decide
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[13:34:45] <Martin Thomson_web_783> this is just part of the usual "continuous improvement" process
[13:34:46] <Darrel Miller_web_249> It is working well if we ship good stuff :-)
[13:34:49] <Erik Wilde_web_983> i'd be more than happy to do a "1 year later" episode of darrel's intro for the group.
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[13:36:51] <Alexey Melnikov_web_811> Charter text is a possible stick to use (by IESG) on WGs that don’t work well. No need to use it, if the WG works well.
[13:37:48] <mnot> And especially connect to the API community(s)
[13:37:49] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> I agree with the "don't create busywork unless it's needed" approach to charter management
[13:37:57] <mnot> +1 Bron
[13:38:23] <Erik Wilde_web_983> thanks everybody!
[13:38:23] <Sanjay Dalal_web_333> Thank you everyone!
[13:38:24] <mnot> Thank you!
[13:38:27] <Per Andersson_web_504> thanks!
[13:38:28] <francesca> thank you!
[13:38:28] <Phil Archer_web_329> Thanks all
[13:38:28] <Bron Gondwana_web_191> Bye!
[13:38:29] <Alexey Melnikov_web_811> Thank you all!
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