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[04:45:46] Rich Salz has set the subject to: HTTPAPI at IETF 109
[04:46:03] <Rich Salz> Hi Darrel!
[04:46:36] <Rich Salz> Any feeling for what percentage will be IETF newcomers (0-1 prior meetings) ?
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[04:55:42] <zulipbot> [zulip] <Jay Daley> @Rich it was 9.5% for IETF 108 +/- 4%
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[06:55:57] <Rich Salz> Thanks.  I'm curious about what httpapi will be like since mnot and others said 50% new folks.  Trying to judge how much to walk people through the process.
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[07:20:00] <PhilA> I'm in that 50% new folks, Rich, so walk throughs welcome. But it's a full agenda so I'm OK with "pick it up as you go along"
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[07:20:28] <PhilA> Currently trying to work out if it's me or the meetecho room that's broken this morning
[07:20:50] <alex-meetecho> PhilA: what's the issue?
[07:21:03] <Chris Lemmons> I'm typing this into the meetecho chat. Does that help you determine?
[07:21:11] <alex-meetecho> the Meetecho room is up & running
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[07:21:22] <alex-meetecho> I don't see issues
[07:21:24] <Darrel> It wouldn't surprise me if it is significantly more than 50%.  Depends how many people are night owls :-)
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[07:21:59] <PhilA> I get a security warning and can't connect (with Firefox or Vivaldi which is essentially an up to date Chrome browser)
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[07:23:07] <alex-meetecho> PhilA: is this the first session you try to attend from that browser?
[07:23:23] <PhilA> First IETF meeting period!
[07:23:38] <PhilA> (long history at W3C)
[07:23:52] <Roberto Polli> Hi @all :)
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[07:24:04] <Roberto Polli> @rich no catastrophich events 'till now :P
[07:24:10] <alex-meetecho> anyway, can you please open a ticket at tickets.meeting.ietf.org and post a screenshot and possibly a dump of the  browser js console?
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[07:24:31] <Chris Lemmons> I can hear you both.
[07:24:31] <Julian Reschke> yes
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[07:27:51] <Julian Reschke> Guten Morgen, Erik!
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[07:29:06] <PhilA> alex-meetecho Ticket raised (by email). Sorry 😞
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[07:30:24] <Roberto Polli> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18RWq_XYfKHf2E5TTCAc5xx9rgdIZgrN0tfB0jmVlnSM/edit#slide=id.g57a2f875b8_0_0 slide links
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[07:30:40] <Mike Bishop> I like having speaker video, FWIW, but then I have a pretty capable Internet connection.
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[07:30:55] <PhilA> As I can't get in to Meetecho, is there a dial in number I can use please?
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[07:31:08] <Meetecho> PhilA: there's an mp3 stream you can use to listen
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[07:31:29] <Meetecho> http://mp3.conf.meetecho.com/ietf109/httpapi/1.m3u
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[07:31:56] <Erik Wilde> hallo julian!
[07:32:07] <alex-meetecho> PhilA: you're actually hitting a wrong address! this is the correct one: https://az.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=httpapi
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[07:32:38] <Erik Wilde> in case somebody wants to follow along with my slides, here's a web-based online version: http://dret.net/lectures/ietf-109/
[07:32:43] <mnot> I suspect that only a subset of the community will come to meetings, especially at this kind of time.
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[07:32:59] <alex-meetecho> wondering where did you get the other one though, has it been published anywhere by mistake?
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[07:33:03] <Roberto Polli> 'day Alejandro
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[07:33:37] <PhilA> I seem to be here, thanks alex-meetecho Silly me, I used the address in the agenda
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[07:33:45] <Alejandro Martinez> good day Roberto
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[07:34:48] <alex-meetecho> I guess you mean the agenda posted on the slides. There must have been an oversight, as gce.conf.meetecho.com was the domain used at previous IETF meeting :)
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[07:36:09] <Roberto Polli> it seems I can't access to jabber today
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[07:36:30] <Carsten Bormann> Actually it is in the agenda: Meetecho: https://gce.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=httpapi
[07:36:43] <Julian Reschke> yep
[07:36:52] <Carsten Bormann> 10 points off the HTTPAPI house
[07:36:53] <Julian Reschke> I just fixed it in the notes
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[07:37:18] <Julian Reschke> I'll help if needed
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[07:38:26] <Chris Lemmons> I can voice jabber.
[07:38:33] <Chris Lemmons> Or he can. :)
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[07:41:02] <Alexey Melnikov> Agree with Mark. Different WGs have different modes of operation. There is flexibility even within IETF rules.
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[07:44:03] <Erik Wilde> thanks to everybody who was part of the effort of creating this working group! @mnot probably was most instrumental...
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[07:45:49] <Martin Thomson> "Runs on the board" is an interesting colloquialism for this.
[07:47:42] <Erik Wilde> existential fear certainly is a great motivator! ;-)
[07:48:04] <Chris Lemmons> Motto for 2020? :)
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[07:49:04] <Martin Thomson> The criteria we might use for adoption is that we believe that the problem is worth solving, we believe that the draft is a reasonable stab in the direction of solving the problem, or at least a workable framework for doing that, and we believe that we can all turn that into something that can reach consensus.
[07:49:17] <Bron Gondwana> time check: we're 1/3 of the way through our time
[07:49:27] <mnot> https://httpwg.org/CONTRIBUTING.html
[07:49:31] <Martin Thomson> When a draft is adopted, the working group then has change control.
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[07:49:46] <Martin Thomson> The chairs decide who is editor.  That might not be the original proponents.
[07:49:48] <Chris Lemmons> &gt; problem worth solving
... by us. Many problems are worth solving, but some might find a better home elsewhere.
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[07:49:58] <mnot> ^^ all of this is in that CONTRIBUTING document :)
[07:49:59] <Martin Thomson> Chris, thanks, that is important.
[07:50:16] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks, mnot.
[07:50:18] <Martin Thomson> mnot: :) paraphrasing for the crowd here.
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[07:52:32] <Roberto Polli> I'm +1 for GH as I'm confortable with its use in the http-wg
[07:52:38] <Chris Lemmons> It works well for the task at hand.
[07:52:45] <Darrel> Yaron, do you still have a question or is that a legacy hand?
[07:54:49] <mnot> ietf-wg-http?
[07:55:03] <Darrel> ietf-wg-hhtpapi
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[07:55:06] <Roberto Polli> @mnot httpapi. the org exists
[07:55:08] <mnot> ah
[07:55:27] <Roberto Polli> https://github.com/ietf-wg-httpapi
[07:55:27] <Darrel> https://github.com/ietf-wg-httpapi
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[07:55:53] <Roberto Polli> we need a cool logo :)
[07:56:25] Benjamin Kaduk joins the room
[07:56:30] <Rich Salz_391> The IETF has a graphics arts firm that has designed them, using an emerging command graphics language (tls quic acme have logo's)
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[07:56:59] <Martin Thomson> I don't think that Yaron's concern here is especially worrying.
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[07:57:18] <Rich Salz_391> the ietf-wg-httpapi org exists, and fits the standard naming scheme :)
[07:57:21] <Julian Reschke> (time check?)
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[07:57:32] <Martin Thomson> There is always a strong incentive to generate standards.  And a few more won't do so much harm, relative to the junk we have already standardized.
[07:57:35] <Darrel> I think there is a reasonable pool of latent specs that have existing adoption.
[07:57:42] <Julian Reschke> Martin +1
[07:57:57] <Martin Thomson> I mean, if we can top PROPFIND, we're doing great.
[07:58:09] <Martin Thomson> :p
[07:58:10] <Roberto Polli> @martin :rotfl
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[07:58:15] <Julian Reschke> Martin -1
[07:58:26] <Martin Thomson> That was for you Julian :)
[07:58:41] <Julian Reschke> Let's try SEARCH then
[07:59:01] <Rich Salz_391> i'll mention time right after this, thanks julian
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[07:59:31] <Martin Thomson> Julian: by which you mean we should try to make SEARCH worse?
[07:59:45] Julian Reschke needs more coffee
[08:00:17] <mnot> Julian needs to review my PRs. :)
[08:00:28] <Julian Reschke> later today
[08:00:43] <Martin Thomson> both Mark and Julian need to finish http-core, because they promised not to be the long pole
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[08:00:53] <Julian Reschke> yep
[08:01:04] <mnot> MT: How much is it worth to you?
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[08:01:22] <Julian Reschke> now we're talking
[08:01:23] <Martin Thomson> mnot: we can always refer to 732x
[08:01:33] <Martin Thomson> You can't call my bluff on that.
[08:01:59] mnot wonders how much work it would take to unwind...
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[08:02:21] <Martin Thomson> You mean field vs. header?
[08:02:34] Josh Cohen joins the room
[08:02:37] <Julian Reschke> split SEMANTICS into four parts again...
[08:02:45] <mnot> Well, if you're goign to refer to 723x, you have to do it right…
[08:03:20] <Rich Salz_391> this is http*api* not http*bis* guys
[08:03:34] <Darrel> +1 :-)
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[08:03:37] <Martin Thomson> Roberto: is this "requests" or "units"?
[08:03:39] Erik Wilde joins the room
[08:03:55] <Darrel> It depends...
[08:04:01] <Chris Lemmons> The draft says that some requests can consume different amounts of units.
[08:04:27] <Martin Thomson> OK, that is a little tricky, but then it becomes harder to predict whether your request will be accepted.
[08:04:40] <Chris Lemmons> Yes, in some cases impossible.
[08:04:55] <mnot> Remember: this is an adoption discussion, not a technical discussion of their particular draft.
[08:04:58] <Julian Reschke> shouldn't this use SH syntax?
[08:05:08] <Julian Reschke> ah
[08:05:09] <Martin Thomson> mnot: this is not something I plan to ask on mic.
[08:05:13] <mnot> akc
[08:05:36] <Phil Archer> I can def see uses of this proposed standard at GS1
[08:05:47] <Chris Lemmons> Yes. SH syntax, quota-unit types, intermediary issues, and other things are stuff we can handle after adoption if we want.
[08:05:58] <Martin Thomson> I wonder whether a rejection might include an extension that says "that request would have consumed X units".
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[08:06:17] <Martin Thomson> Or more generally, for any response, this request used X units.
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[08:06:33] <Martin Thomson> Rate-Limit-Consumed.
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[08:06:53] <Chris Lemmons> Aye. The draft says that the consumption should be communicated in a side channel somehow, I think.
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[08:07:16] <mnot> +1 for adoption, PROVIDED that the proponents understand that the draft may change in ways that break early implementations if necessary.
[08:07:18] <Darrel> I would like to see guidance in the spec as to when to return these headers.  There seems to be an existing pattern where these are returned on every request which is concerning.
[08:07:20] <Martin Thomson> Yeah, this is not really necessary: you can infer from RateLimit fields what was consumed.
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[08:09:02] <Phil Archer> I'd need to review before a formal yes, but in principle, yes
[08:09:02] <mnot> Maybe get a sense of the room of who supports adoption here?
[08:09:13] <Martin Thomson> I'm also for adoption.
[08:09:16] <Michael Kalika> Some institutions may have additional constraints bounded to time. For example X units within Y seconds between 2am - 5am. Wouldn't that be good to take care of such cases too?
[08:09:21] <Rick Taylor> How about a how of hands?
[08:09:37] <Rick Taylor> *show
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[08:09:46] <Martin Thomson> Was going to say that I'm not worried about Roberto yielding change control.  But that any changes need to be moderated by deployment needs, as always.
[08:10:09] <Chris Lemmons> That question was asked in the opposite way I thought it was. :)
[08:10:12] <Martin Thomson> OK, the wording on that was not good.
[08:10:12] <mnot> MIchael: That's getting to the point where you'd need a policy description language. There be dragons.
[08:10:31] <Martin Thomson> We need a pre-canned "adopt/not" voting slate.
[08:10:39] <Rick Taylor> !!(yes)
[08:10:43] <mnot> Thanks Roberto!
[08:10:49] <Alejandro Martinez> thanks Roberto
[08:10:55] <Martin Thomson> Thanks.  Nice and fast too.
[08:10:57] <Michael Kalika> thanks mnot!
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[08:11:29] <Martin Thomson> Michael, you can always change your response over time.  It's not like when you claim a limit of X you are committed to respecting that limit forever.
[08:11:51] <Roberto Polli> Thanks to everybody for your feedback.
[08:12:07] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks for the draft.
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[08:12:31] <mnot> Did we lose Erik?
[08:12:35] <Chris Lemmons> I think the audio died.
[08:12:38] <Carsten Bormann> Should I be hearing Erik?
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[08:13:04] <Meetecho> He just reconnected
[08:13:15] <mnot> Zurich
[08:13:16] <Chris Lemmons> Maybe he ran out of quota. :)
[08:13:24] <Rick Taylor> +1
[08:13:28] <Roberto Polli> Chris: lool
[08:13:47] <mnot> Chris wins Jabber for the day; congratulations!
[08:13:54] <Roberto Polli> https://ioggstream.github.io/draft-polli-ratelimit-headers/draft-polli-ratelimit-headers.html#section-appendix.d see FAQ
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[08:14:36] <Carsten Bormann> which is always the important part :-)
[08:14:42] <Julian Reschke> maybe he was deprecated
[08:15:05] <Darrel> Sunsetted more like.
[08:15:08] <mnot> Eventually, this WG will operate solely be reference to the specifications it defines
[08:15:25] <Murray Kucherawy> success metric
[08:15:39] <Julian Reschke> that's an incentive to write a lot of specs
[08:15:45] <Chris Lemmons> And it'll be far more efficient, because we'll be able to do it with just RFC numbers.
[08:16:07] <Julian Reschke> ...which will quickly get to 5 digit numbers then
[08:16:09] <Bron Gondwana> include: prison joke numbers joke
[08:17:00] <Martin Thomson> change control seems important
[08:17:20] <Martin Thomson> That is not a problem.
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[08:17:42] <Martin Thomson> Informational documents that get replaced by proposed standards show goodness.
[08:17:46] <Alexey Melnikov> Not a problem with referencing Sunset
[08:17:52] <Alexey Melnikov> +1
[08:18:02] <Martin Thomson> I think that the main concern is the lack of SF
[08:18:04] <Roberto Polli> +1 for adoption as this is useful
[08:18:20] <Alejandro Martinez> +1
[08:18:21] <Chris Lemmons> +1 on adoption here.
[08:18:23] <Julian Reschke> show of hands?
[08:18:24] <Roberto Polli> not sure http-date format is the one to go, but +1
[08:18:25] <mnot> Again, current users need to be OK with changes
[08:18:27] <Phil Archer> +1
[08:18:28] <Mario Loffredo> +1 for adoption
[08:18:29] <Julian Reschke> +1 to adopt
[08:18:33] <Martin Thomson> +1 mnot
[08:18:46] <Julian Reschke> ack
[08:18:49] <mnot> If there are compatibility problems, the fallback is changing the field name
[08:19:03] <mnot> Roberto: agreed, it needs discussion
[08:19:09] <Darrel> and then we deprecate the deprecate header?
[08:19:17] <Martin Thomson> The use case is solid.
[08:19:32] <Martin Thomson> Deprecated: rather than Deprecation: perhaps :)
[08:19:41] <Roberto Polli> @dattel They have different meaning P
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[08:20:19] <Martin Thomson> Or we could follow the fine HTTP tradition of misspeling header field names
[08:20:31] <Bron Gondwana> Depreciate:
[08:20:34] <mnot> We reserve that for only the best headers
[08:20:37] <Rich Salz_391> I see what you did there
[08:20:39] <Martin Thomson> Oh, +1 to Bron
[08:20:47] <Alexey Melnikov> RFC 6690 already registers one of these media types and the format looks identical
[08:20:50] <Martin Thomson> Depreciation FTW
[08:21:05] <Rick Taylor> Deprecated implies is has *already* been deprected, "depecation" states when it will go
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[08:21:40] <Darrel> Alexey, I believe this was brought up on the list and there was some discussion about it.
[08:21:42] <Rick Taylor> "will-be-deprecated" ;-)
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[08:22:18] <Phil Archer> That's why I'm here (GS1)
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[08:22:22] <Yaron Sheffer> Why the smiley? This one's clearer.
[08:22:29] mnot waves at Phil
[08:22:36] <Phil Archer> We strongly endorse this standard and have already implemented it
[08:22:38] <Rick Taylor> Way too long, but maybe "deprecated-after"
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[08:23:17] <Phil Archer> https://www.gs1.org/standards/development-work-groups/public-reviews#DL_Public-Review-2020
[08:23:19] <Martin Thomson> Bye Erik
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[08:23:49] <Martin Thomson> I just skimmed through and it seems solid.
[08:24:53] <Carsten Bormann> Agree.
[08:24:54] <Yaron Sheffer> +1 to "deprecated-after".
[08:24:55] <Martin Thomson> It is not the same.  Core went with shorter keys.
[08:25:00] <Carsten Bormann> Current work: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coral/
[08:25:17] <Martin Thomson> The underlying model absolutely matters.
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[08:25:34] <Carsten Bormann> 6690 seemed like a good idea at the time.
[08:25:39] <Martin Thomson> This is Link in the body of a document.
[08:25:39] <mnot> Maybe take this to the list?
[08:27:36] <Rick Taylor> Anyone got a link for the "errors" document?
[08:27:47] <Bron Gondwana> presumably 7807
[08:27:57] <Rick Taylor> Now I se the ref :)
[08:28:02] <Darrel> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7807
[08:28:08] <Martin Thomson> For later: Why is the content- ?  There are some interesting things that happen when header fields start with "Content-"
[08:28:22] <mnot> MT: no there arent'
[08:28:36] <Martin Thomson> Not standardized things, but maybe practical things.
[08:28:36] <Julian Reschke> there shouldn't but are?
[08:28:37] <mnot> Now very, very explicitly :)
[08:29:00] <Bron Gondwana> Content-Warning: header-starting-with-content; &lt;ts&gt;
[08:29:10] <mnot> AFAICT there were but now aren't (with tests)
[08:29:23] <Martin Thomson> Oh, I missed that development.  That is reassuring.
[08:29:39] <Martin Thomson> I guess the real question is whether this is content-related rather than request-related.
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[08:30:33] <Martin Thomson> This uses SF
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[08:30:45] <Rick Taylor> @Martin: I think you have a point here - the warning is request related.  Question: Would you use this with HEAD?
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[08:30:56] <Julian Reschke> payload is JSON
[08:31:15] <Martin Thomson> Rick, I think that you might.  If you get embedded-warning in your HEAD response, that's not so useful, but maybe that is OK.
[08:31:43] <Rick Taylor> @Martin, One use-case would be "warning: deprecated" ;-)
[08:31:46] <W. Means> Since this will be a response to a request to a specific URL, I'd prefer to see a pointer to a different URL instead of dictating the body format.
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[08:31:55] <Martin Thomson> Rick: Yep.
[08:32:47] <Martin Thomson> I think that it would be good to have a parameter that recorded a warning *count*
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[08:33:21] <Julian Reschke> ...HTML
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[08:33:56] <mnot> I'll read the draft and take thoughts to the list.
[08:33:58] <Martin Thomson> I should have mentioned that while this claims to use SH, it's probably a little behind the times.
[08:34:05] <mnot> (re-, but it's been a while ;)
[08:34:28] <mnot> +1
[08:34:31] <Rich Salz_391> https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-109-httpapi
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[08:34:47] <mnot> Thanks Bron!
[08:34:50] <Roberto Polli> +1 to me
[08:34:50] <Martin Thomson> Thanks everyone.  Very constructive.
[08:34:52] <Chris Lemmons> /applause for Bron
[08:34:57] <mnot> Thanks Darrel and Rich!
[08:35:02] <Julian Reschke> yes
[08:35:03] <W. Means> Thanks!
[08:35:12] <Erik Wilde> thanks everybody, and my apologies for my ridiculous internet connectivity.
[08:35:16] <Roberto Polli> Thanks for all your time, I'll answer to your question on list.
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[08:35:28] <Michael Kalika> thank you
[08:35:28] <Phil Archer> Thanks everyone. Bye
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[08:35:32] <Alejandro Martinez> thanks
[08:35:38] <Alexey Melnikov> Glad to see this WG being formed and thank you for the meeting
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[08:36:14] <Mario Loffredo> Thanks everybody, bye
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[08:36:22] <Darrel> bye!
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