IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 17, 2017< ^ >
tomek has set the subject to: Homenet @ IETF'98 (Chicago)
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[11:36:40] <LeeH> Good afternoon! I will be your Jabber scribe today.
[11:36:55] <mtownsley> Thank you.
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[11:38:28] <LeeH> We are still covering the Chair slides, on the "WG Update" slide
[11:38:46] <LeeH> Meeting agenfa is at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/agenda/agenda-99-homenet-00.txt
[11:38:54] <LeeH> Ted Lemon speaking
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[11:39:33] <LeeH> draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile
Juliusz Chrobocek
[11:39:54] <LeeH> Slide 2
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[11:40:15] <LeeH> If you're looking for the materials, they are at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/session/homenet
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[11:41:04] <LeeH> Slide 3 of Homenet Babel Profile  <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-homenet-homenet-babel-profile-00.pdf>(slides-99-homenet-homenet-babel-profile-00)  <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-homenet-homenet-babel-profile/00/>
[11:41:07] <LeeH> Slide 4
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[11:42:43] <LeeH> Slide 4 advanced (also labelled 4/6)
[11:42:54] <LeeH> Slide 5/6
[11:44:00] <LeeH> Slide 6/6 ":ast Call?"
[11:44:10] <LeeH> Last Call, I mean.
[11:44:47] <LeeH> Ted Lemon
[11:45:42] <LeeH> Matthieu Boutier coming up to talk about Source Specific Routing  <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-homenet-source-specific-routing-01.pdf>(slides-99-homenet-source-specific-routing-01)  <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-homenet-source-specific-routing/01/>
[11:45:44] <LeeH> Sldie 2
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[11:46:17] <LeeH> Slide 3
[11:46:55] <LeeH> Slide 3
[11:46:57] <LeeH> Slide 4
[11:46:59] <LeeH> Slide 5
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[11:48:07] <Glenn McKnight> slide pages don't work
[11:48:18] <LeeH> Adminsitrivia-bis: need new chairs
[11:48:32] <LeeH> Can you get to materials from https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/session/homenet ?
[11:48:54] <mtownsley> Thanks for all the fish :-)
[11:49:17] <LeeH> Ted Lemon on "Distirbuted Keys with DNCP" which is part of the "Naming and Service Discovery" deck, I think
[11:49:22] <LeeH> Slide: Motivation
[11:49:52] <Antonin Décimo> Congrats on the great talk Matthieu :) (from the 3055 squad)
[11:50:10] <LeeH> Ah, here it is, this deck: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-homenet-dncp-security-00.pdf
[11:50:26] <LeeH> Slide "Status Quo"
[11:51:37] <LeeH> Slide: "Proposal"
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[11:53:32] <LeeH> Slide: Conclusion
[11:53:53] <LeeH> Looking for co-authors
[11:54:06] <LeeH> Barbara Stark
[11:54:14] <LeeH> Juliusz Chroboczek
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[11:55:08] <LeeH> Juliusz again
[11:55:21] <LeeH> Barbara again
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[11:56:31] <LeeH> Something I like to say to newcomers: when someone says, "Anyone interested in helping?" that's an invitation to co-author an internet-draft. If you understand what Ted's talking about, you should consider writing up
[11:57:00] <LeeH> Ray Bellis (chair) asking about first slide
[11:58:24] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I think this is an interesting idea, though I'm worried about the scaling properties.  But in the absence of a draft to review in detail it's hard for me to know whether it'll work :)
[11:58:32] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I guess that means "I will review a draft."
[11:58:42] <LeeH> David Schinazi
[11:58:58] <jch> ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca: nobody knows how big Home Networks will be, but think 20 routers, not 10000.
[12:00:48] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I think you're right, but Ted's description at one point was _every node_ would have the keys of every other node.  That's not 20 routers given the "campus network" use case we had back in the day
[12:01:04] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> or rather, it's 20 routers but the 20 is not the number that matters.
[12:01:26] <jch> That's flooding less than 1kB per router.
[12:01:39] <jch> HNCP can do that just fine.
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[12:02:00] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> sure, but I'm not sure all the classes of device we might care about will be able to keep that much state
[12:02:09] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I just don't know until I read a draft :)
[12:02:18] <jch> Ah, I see.  Yes, that's a concern.
[12:02:41] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> It still seems good to get started on the proposal, so that we can work out those details
[12:03:02] <LeeH> "Experiences Deploying a Home Network"
[12:03:24] <LeeH> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-homenet-hncp-experiences-00.pdf
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[12:03:32] <LeeH> Slide: "Deployment Scenario"
[12:03:55] <LeeH> Slide: Initial research
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[12:04:49] <LeeH> Slide: "Deployment"
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[12:05:46] <LeeH> Slide: "What happened?"
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[12:06:24] <LeeH> Juliusz again
[12:07:03] <LeeH> Slide: "Conclusions"
[12:07:36] <LeeH> Slide: "Questions"
[12:08:00] <LeeH> Slide: "What I think"
[12:09:14] <Pierre Pfister> Students can get homenet working. And add functionalities. -> http://www.thomasclausen.net/en/wifi-too-much-of-a-hassle-alleviating-pain-with-constellation/
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[12:09:51] <LeeH> Slide: "Specification update?"
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[12:10:25] <LeeH> Students at Poytechnique might not represent our typical users.
[12:10:43] <LeeH> Pierre Pfister:
[12:10:47] <mtownsley> Neither does Ted ;-)
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[12:11:36] <jch> Mark has a point.
[12:12:17] <LeeH> Juliusz interrupts to make my point
[12:12:23] <LeeH> [laughter]
[12:13:42] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I think Ted's point about the target audience is a worthwhile thing.  If the goal is "this works for my mother" we're some distance from the task we set for ourselves.
[12:13:56] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> that doesn't imply any criticism of anyone
[12:14:00] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> (yet)
[12:14:10] <LeeH> Bob Hinden
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[12:14:59] <LeeH> Mark Townsley, from the floor not the chair
[12:16:32] <LeeH> George Michaleson
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[12:18:44] <LeeH> [that was Lee Howard]
[12:19:15] <LeeH> Juliusz
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[12:21:38] <LeeH> Pierre Pfister
[12:22:29] <LeeH> Jordi Palet
[12:23:09] <LeeH> note to newcomers: Pierre asking for code and documentation contributions to hnetd. Another place where contributing is welcome.
[12:23:25] <LeeH> Ted Lemon still: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-homenet-naming-and-service-discovery-00.pdf
[12:24:02] <LeeH> Slide 2
[12:24:08] <jch> LeeH: here's some starting points https://www.irif.fr/~jch/software/homenet/
[12:24:34] <LeeH> I don't mean to imply that contributions aren't welcome everywhere, but you will be welcome with open arms in places where people ask for help
[12:24:35] <LeeH> Slide 3
[12:25:01] <LeeH> Slide 4
[12:25:46] <LeeH> Slide 5
[12:25:59] <LeeH> Slide 6
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[12:27:53] <LeeH> Andrew Sullivan
[12:32:19] <LeeH> Barbara Stark
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[12:33:02] <mtownsley> Hacking Homenet at Bits n Bites IETF 85, November 2012:
[12:33:07] <mtownsley> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ypvtw67o0c1omi8/Homenet-IETF-85-Atlanta.jpg?dl=0
[12:34:09] <LeeH> David Schinazi
[12:34:28] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> The problem here is not happy eyeballs at the DNS level.  It's happy split-brain
[12:35:01] <LeeH> +1 ajs.
[12:35:28] <LeeH> I was told there would be no math.
[12:35:48] <jch> I was told there would be a discussion whether we use .home or .home.arpa.
[12:35:53] <jch> (Just kidding.)
[12:36:06] <LeeH> You must've been told that prior to the last meeting.
[12:36:09] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I suppose we could get a lobotomy and all feel better, but this doesn't sound like it's quite as trivial as people seem to think it is
[12:36:22] <LeeH> Pierre Pfister
[12:37:01] <LeeH> Barbara Stark
[12:37:54] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> I'm also ok if we say, "This requires a host mod and go do that other thing over there."  But there's no way this Just Works for unchanged hosts, which as Ray pointed out is the charter limitation
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[12:38:40] <jch> ajs, not quite.  The charter says that Homenet must work with unmodified hosts, but we're allowed to suggest host modifications if they improve the experience.
[12:38:56] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> right.  
[12:39:13] <jch> I'd have left this group a long time ago were it not for that particular loophole.
[12:39:24] <LeeH> George Michaelson
[12:39:39] <ajs@jabber.crankycanuck.ca> Ted's point is that the CDN case won't work, period, at all, across multiple links if the host doesn't do the right thing
[12:40:00] <LeeH> Stuart Cheshire
[12:40:23] <LeeH> Slide 7!
[12:40:41] <LeeH> Slide 8
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[12:41:40] <LeeH> Slide 9
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[12:42:37] <mtownsley> For more recent visitors: We called what we could and could not expect from hosts the “Thaler Doctrine” back during the early chartering days... Essentially that we would first aim to define something that worked with no host changes, then (2) define what we would really like to see but which might require host changes.... mPVDs are (partially) the result of some of the #2
[12:43:01] <LeeH> Stuart Cheshire
[12:45:30] <LeeH> Slide 10
[12:45:41] <LeeH> Slide 11
[12:46:39] <LeeH> Slide 12
[12:47:47] <Andrew Sullivan> I will just note that this is the _simple_ naming architecture.  The complicated one has more moving parts.
[12:48:17] <LeeH> Slide 13
[12:48:25] <Suzanne> "simple" is relative, yes
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[12:50:09] <LeeH> Slides skipped, now on #18
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[12:52:12] <LeeH> Chroboczek. I'll get it right on the first try someday.
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[12:53:21] <LeeH> George Michaleson
[12:53:28] <LeeH> Michaelson.
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[12:55:32] <LeeH> Stuart Cheshire
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[12:58:21] <LeeH> I was told there'd be no math
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[13:01:07] <Andrew Sullivan> That last point (don't cut off the future) is a good idea
[13:01:30] <mtownsley> The authors of RFC 7695 have a formal mathematical proof that the algorithm converges :-)
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[13:02:20] <LeeH> mtownsley :)
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