IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 27, 2017< ^ >
Barbara Stark has set the subject to: Homenet @ IETF96
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[13:43:36] <Mark Townsley> Is this IETF 98?
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[13:46:46] tomek has set the subject to: Homenet @ IETF'98 (Chicago)
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[14:01:31] <mellon> No, we’re in Seoul.   Don’t you remember the long flight?
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[14:02:36] <Lee Howard> Good morning! I will be your jabber scribe today.
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[14:02:43] <Lee Howard> We are now bashing the agenda.
[14:02:44] <Mark Townsley> Thank you, Lee
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[14:03:20] <Mark Townsley> And thank you to the note takers, Barbara and Stuart, who will be taking notes in the etherpad
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[14:04:07] <Lee Howard> Moving on to draft-homenet-babel-profile
[14:04:14] <each> is it me or is the sound system terrible? I'm 12 feet from ray but I'm starting to think I'll have to rely on the jabber scribe to follow the meeting
[14:04:25] <Lee Howard> Materials are at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/materials
[14:04:25] <Markus Stenberg> I can pick the remote stuff reasonably well
[14:04:41] <Lee Howard> Audio is too quiet in the room; somebody should open a meeting room ticket.
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[14:04:57] <Pierre PFISTER> And close the door, please.
[14:04:59] <Lee Howard> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-homenet-babel-profile-for-homenet-00.pdf
[14:05:05] <Lee Howard> Slide 2/7
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[14:05:25] <Lee Howard> Juliusz Chroboczek presenting
[14:06:26] <Lee Howard> Slide 3/7
[14:07:16] <Lee Howard> Slide 4/7
[14:07:32] <mellon> That’s a yiddish proverb.
[14:07:45] <Lee Howard> Slide 5/7
[14:08:01] <Lee Howard> But it's labelled 4/7
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[14:08:45] <Lee Howard> "REQ5 is not precise enough" slide, 5/7
[14:09:25] <Lee Howard> Slide 6/7
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[14:10:02] <Lee Howard> Slide 7/7
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[14:10:42] <Lee Howard> btw, something can be a Yiddish proverb and also a Polish proverb. :-)
[14:11:17] <Lee Howard> Open for suggestions. . .
[14:11:38] <Mark Townsley> Anyone want to code? Please volunteer for #2
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[14:12:11] <Lee Howard> David Schinazi, Apple
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[14:13:22] <Lee Howard> I need a personal break. Can someone take over scribing for a minute?
[14:13:26] <Lee Howard> Pierre Pfister speaking
[14:13:40] <Lee Howard> brb
[14:14:09] <Markus Stenberg> running manually keyed IPsec SA would be obvious choice, all RFCs out there already (smirk)
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[14:15:26] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP assumes DTLS for security -> assuming DTLS for Babel would be the sensible choice (and it can get keying from HNCP)
[14:15:33] <Markus Stenberg> unfortunately no spec etc.
[14:15:39] <Markus Stenberg> (and motivated implementors)
[14:15:44] <Markus Stenberg> (no particular need to relay, just amusing myself)
[14:16:58] <Pierre PFISTER> Markus: I think babel already has authentication. It only needs a pre-shared key provided by HNCP.
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[14:17:14] <ajs> This is a different meaning of “proud” than the one with which I am familiar :)
[14:17:16] <Markus Stenberg> yes, but that scheme is quite dated
[14:17:22] <Lee Howard> btw, that's Ted Lemon speaking
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[14:17:52] <Markus Stenberg> but unfortunately for multicast security there isn't really good solutions
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[14:19:11] <Lee Howard> Pierre Pfister speaking
[14:19:41] <Lee Howard> David Schinazi
[14:20:24] <Lee Howard> Ted Lemon
[14:20:55] <Markus Stenberg> babel is multicast, I wonder how it works p2p
[14:21:02] <Lee Howard> Pierre
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[14:21:40] <Lee Howard> Ted
[14:22:09] <Lee Howard> Ray Bellis, in case you don't recognize the chair's voice
[14:22:15] <Lee Howard> Mark Townsley, the other chair
[14:22:19] <Markus Stenberg> technically it supports multiple keys, but not N^2 keys for N devices
[14:22:23] <Markus Stenberg> (it will not scale)
[14:22:45] <Lee Howard> Markus, do let me know if you want anything relayed. I'm happy to see conversation here.
[14:22:52] <Lee Howard> Ran Atkinson
[14:22:59] <Markus Stenberg> Nah, just noting things here in case Mark T wants to say something about it
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[14:23:14] <Markus Stenberg> that N^2 argument might be worth saying if nobody points it out
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[14:24:57] <Lee Howard> OK, I'm in mic line.
[14:25:30] <suzworldwide> Ted Lemon at the mic
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[14:28:03] <Lee Howard> hands raised?
[14:28:25] <Pierre PFISTER> I raised hand.
[14:28:43] <Pierre PFISTER> Saw Barbara Stark.
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[14:29:15] <Lee Howard> Moving on, Ted Lemon presenting
[14:29:30] <Lee Howard> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/slides/slides-98-homenet-simple-naming-00.pdf
[14:29:34] <Lee Howard> Slide 2, "Status"
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[14:30:55] <Lee Howard> Slide 3/9 "Discovery Proxy Differences"
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[14:31:49] <Lee Howard> Slide 4/9 "Querying Proxy"
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[14:32:52] <Lee Howard> Slide 5/9 "Relaying Proxy"
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[14:34:17] <Lee Howard> Slide 6/9 "Name conflicts"
[14:34:37] <ajs> I missed this draft because I was watching the old draft, but here’s a thing that I find odd:
[14:34:38] <ajs> Hosts that do not implement any homenet-specific capabilities
       must still be able to discover and access services on the
       homenet, to the extent possible.
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[14:35:06] <ajs> That says “they must be able to do this unless they can’t,” which seems to me to be not too much of a requirement.
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[14:35:28] <Lee Howard> "they must be able to do this if they are able to do this"
[14:35:35] <Lee Howard> SLide 7/0 "Causes of naming conflicts"
[14:35:38] <Lee Howard> 7/9
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[14:37:25] <Mark Townsley> ajs: This is probably derived from what we at one point called the "Thaler Doctrine" in this group. That is, we do as much as we can in homenet without any change required on hosts. If there is a point where that's just impossible, we MAY make a host recommendation, but it needs to be called out as to why, what happens with hosts that do not support the new option, etc.
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[14:37:52] <Mark Townsley> It's just a bias towards "please don't change the hosts unless you really, really, really, need to"
[14:38:00] <Markus Stenberg> I wonder if that boat has already sailed
[14:38:05] <Markus Stenberg> too many implementations out there
[14:38:11] <Lee Howard> Slide 8/9 "Regrets for less-simple architecture"
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[14:39:21] <jch> Why mDNS flawed?  (Link to ID welcome.)
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[14:39:35] <Lee Howard> Last slide, "For the WG to decide"
[14:40:23] <Dave Thaler> @Markus (I'm in another WG trying to pay attension): the principle was that existing hosts need to work.  If you want to add some fancy feature that only new hosts can use that is possible as long as it doesn't break basic functionality for existing hosts.
[14:40:49] <Markus Stenberg> yeah, I agree with that, not sure host changes can really improve it anyway
[14:40:58] <Markus Stenberg> I consider DNS-SD sufficient but not great solution, mdns.. well.
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[14:41:05] <Lee Howard> Stuart Cheshire at mic
[14:41:36] <Dave Thaler> just summarizing what principle mark's "Thaler Doctrine" term referred to
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[14:42:45] <Lee Howard> rfc6763 "DNS-Based Service Discovery"
[14:42:58] <Lee Howard> Terry Lyn
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[14:43:16] <Dave Thaler> "Kerry Lynn" I think
[14:43:24] <rdroms> yes
[14:43:32] <Lee Howard> Oops, thanks. Still early at IETF and I have refreshed my name cache.
[14:43:41] <Lee Howard> haven't. Drinking more coffee now.
[14:44:01] <Lee Howard> Andrew Sullivan
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[14:46:04] <Lee Howard> Ralph Droms
[14:46:19] <Mark Townsley> RFC 5218 page 7:
[14:46:21] <Mark Townsley>    o  Reduce complexity and cost by narrowing the intended purpose
      and/or scope to an area where it is easiest to succeed.  This may
      allow removing complexity that is not required for the narrow
      purpose.  Removing complexity reduces the cost of implementation
      and deployment to where the resulting cost may be very low
      compared to the benefit.
[14:46:49] <Lee Howard> rfc5218 "What Makes for a Successful Protocol?"
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[14:47:32] <Lee Howard> (Quoting rfc number without at least the title always leaves me feeling lost, so I figure it's handy for others, too, for me to provide it when I've looked it up)
[14:47:43] <Mark Townsley> Yes, Thanks Lee
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[14:48:49] <ajs> I’m not opposed to paring down.  I just note that we had a fairly ambitious set of things that the WG said it wanted to do, and this proposal appears to be saying, “Nope, not gonna do that.”  Nothing _wrong_ with that, but it’s a decision to make
[14:48:51] <Lee Howard> Daniel Migault, I think
[14:49:14] <Mark Townsley> Brrr…. anyone else find it cold in here?
[14:49:25] <ajs> At last I am not too hot :)
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[14:49:30] <Lee Howard> Terry Manderson, AD
[14:49:34] <mellon> Nope, I'm wearing a flannel shirt.   :)
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[14:50:07] <Lee Howard> No slides for this, so nobody should feel like they're missing context.
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[14:54:06] <Lee Howard> Ted Lemon
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[14:55:37] <Lee Howard> Mark trying to clarify Ted's clarifying question
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[14:55:51] <ajs> I think this conversation is quickly drifting rather far from this WG’s competence, but I rather doubt that making the problem bigger is going to make it go faster.
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[14:58:32] <Lee Howard> Jari Arkko
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[14:59:26] <Lee Howard> Suzanne Woolf, DNSOP WG co-chair
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[14:59:58] <Lee Howard> ajs, if you make a problem bigger, eventually it overlaps our area of competence, right?
[15:00:20] <Lee Howard> Mark Townsley, WG chair
[15:00:54] <Lee Howard> Ted Lemon
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[15:01:19] <Lee Howard> Andrew Sullivan
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[15:03:31] <ajs> I do not agree with Terry’s view there.
[15:03:52] <ajs> But I think that the IETF LC is the place to have that discussion unless the WG wants to revisit its consensus
[15:04:08] <suzworldwide> What's changed is that a lot more of the process of review outside the WG is done, and there's a lot more reservations on the record
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[15:04:31] <suzworldwide> +1@ajs
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[15:06:24] <Lee Howard> Ray responding
[15:06:43] <Lee Howard> Ted Lemon
[15:07:27] <Lee Howard> Andrew Sullivan
[15:07:52] <avri doria> ICANN is just waking up to this issue. The discussion will be interesting.
[15:08:34] <Lee Howard> Ted Lemon
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[15:08:51] <Lee Howard> Stuart Cheshire
[15:09:05] <ajs> This is part of the point that I was trying to make to Ted in the previous discussion, though: a lot of this hokey-pokey is needed to make possible the complex cases we wanted to support, but if we’re going to go with the super simple approach, maybe all this stuff isn’t needed
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[15:10:47] <Lee Howard> Ray Bellis, WG chair
[15:10:51] <Lee Howard> Stuart
[15:11:10] <Lee Howard> Mark Andrews
[15:12:23] <Lee Howard> Terry, AD: Watch this space.
[15:13:06] <Lee Howard> Mark Townsley, WG chair
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[15:14:45] <Lee Howard> Mark, I got a little lost on which part you said was baby and which was bathwater
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[15:15:13] <Lee Howard> or, which parts had WG consensus and which were maybe revisit-able.
[15:15:16] <Mark Townsley> bathwater was the insecure delegation
[15:15:20] <Mark Townsley> .homenet is the baby
[15:15:24] <avri doria> remotely I understood anything with the word delegation was the baby.
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[15:15:34] <each> seriously unclear why insecure delegation is bathwater
[15:15:56] <avri doria> i man the bthwater.
[15:16:04] <avri doria> mean the bathwater.
[15:16:12] <rdroms> The fact that the insecure delegation was added after the last WG meeting does not diminish its importance.
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[15:16:18] <Lee Howard> I look forward to thrashing this on the mailing list.
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[15:16:36] <Mark Townsley> Please thrash away.
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[15:17:33] <each> an insecure delegation from the root clearly guarantees that nobody's going to register a .homenet TLD in the future, and it makes validating resolvers work correctly (you can add a local trust anchor for .homenet if you want to validate your local names)
[15:17:45] <each> I don't see the problem. anyway. off the mailing list, I guess
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