IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, April 5, 2016< ^ >
Peter van Dijk has set the subject to: Home Networking WG at IETF 93
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[16:54:39] <timc (scribe)> /title Homenet @IETF95
[16:54:41] <timc (scribe)> oops
[16:55:12] timc (scribe) has set the subject to: Homenet @ IETF95
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[17:03:35] <Garima Pandey> hummmmmmmmm
[17:04:24] <Richa Chauhan> huummmmmmmm
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[17:06:11] <timc (scribe)> chairs starting meeting now
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[17:07:09] <timc (scribe)> agenda bashing
[17:07:27] <RISHABH JAIN> humm
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[17:07:46] <Tim Wicinski> etherpad :  http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-95-homenet?useMonospaceFont=true
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[17:08:37] <timc (scribe)> on chair slides https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-homenet-0.pdf
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[17:08:58] <timc (scribe)> slide 4/4
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[17:10:43] <timc (scribe)> any questions or comments to relay on chair slides?
[17:10:59] <timc (scribe)> on to first talk
[17:11:03] <timc (scribe)> Babel - https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-homenet-1.pdf
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[17:11:22] <timc (scribe)> slide 2/9
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[17:12:01] <Garima Pandey> A home n/w is a type of LAN?
[17:12:09] <timc (scribe)> slide 3/9
[17:12:28] <timc (scribe)> see RFC 7368 for homenet architecture
[17:12:32] <Markus Stenberg> basically multiple subnet IPv6 network, physical layer not really interesting (typically LAN + WLAN)
[17:12:43] <timc (scribe)> slide 4/9
[17:12:46] <Markus Stenberg> IPv4 obviously happening too for foreseeable future
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[17:13:17] <Lee Howard> We are explicitly not constrained by IPv4, per the charter.
[17:13:18] <timc (scribe)> slide 5/9
[17:14:04] <timc (scribe)> slide 6/9
[17:14:07] <Lee Howard> The draft says "SHOULD" do IPv4, which is congruent with charter, I think.
[17:14:09] <Mark Townsley> +1 Lee. It's fine if IPv4 works, but no design concessions for that.
[17:14:25] <Markus Stenberg> MUST is not really in HNCP, nor in charter/arch draft, so I think SHOULD is fine
[17:14:26] <Lee Howard> ah, it's like I predicted this slide. :-)
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[17:15:56] <Markus Stenberg> hummmmm
[17:16:03] <Markus Stenberg> MAY or SHOULD
[17:16:26] <timc (scribe)> Lee has said as much
[17:16:31] <timc (scribe)> agreement on SHOULD
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[17:16:44] <timc (scribe)> slide 7/9
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[17:17:23] <Lee Howard> Happy to keep taking questions from folks here. We got a little silly on that conversation on may/should/must.
[17:17:26] <Markus Stenberg> REQ5: HNCP generates keying material which can be used to derive per-other-protocol key material (pre-shared key) => 'instruct' is straightforward, but I am not sure about MUST
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[17:18:13] <Markus Stenberg> MUST implement perhaps
[17:18:39] <timc (scribe)> so not enable by default?
[17:18:42] <Markus Stenberg> although I think all MUSTs here really imply just that a) it must be implemented, and b) enabled iff HNCP tells it to
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[17:18:44] <Lee Howard> Markus, do you mean you're not sure HMAC auth must be implemented?
[17:18:48] <Markus Stenberg> so I think the text is fine
[17:19:33] <timc (scribe)> any objections then to text as is? on slide 7?
[17:20:20] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP defines PSK generation, PSK would be either stuck to config file, or told via IPC (e.g. Bird daemon impl might support that some day)
[17:20:23] <Markus Stenberg> but it is impl detail
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[17:20:41] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP specifies it already, just no impl. details on how process-process IPC is done.
[17:21:43] <Markus Stenberg> (skip those comments btw)
[17:21:45] <Markus Stenberg> I agree with MikaelA
[17:22:18] <Lee Howard> Thanks, Markus, tha'ts actually the info I was looking for, that HNCP actually already specifies it.
[17:23:07] <timc (scribe)> on to slide 8/9
[17:24:19] <Lee Howard> Found it, section 9 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-hncp-10
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[17:24:40] <timc (scribe)> (I assume all Lee's text here is for Markus and not the mic :)
[17:24:45] <Lee Howard> "9 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-hncp-10#section-9>.  Securing Third-Party Protocols"
[17:24:53] <Lee Howard> Yes, I'll relay myself at the mic.  :-)
[17:25:02] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP node == the whole router
[17:25:04] <Markus Stenberg> I think
[17:25:44] <Markus Stenberg> e.g. hnetd has nothing to do with DHCPv6 or DHCP sourced routes, and instead Babel propagates them directly from kernel FIB (linux has no real RIB except in particular routing daemons)
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[17:26:26] <cabo> (Tim, you are overdriving the mic)
[17:26:35] <timc (scribe)> i want double pay for this jabber session :P
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[17:26:46] <timc (scribe)> ok sorry i have a hearing problem this week
[17:27:27] <Lee Howard> Tim, I'll chip in as much as the chairs are paying you.
[17:27:37] <timc (scribe)> very generous!
[17:27:54] <Tim Wicinski> as a fellow Tim, I'll double that pay
[17:28:04] <timc (scribe)> quadruple pay!
[17:28:09] <Nathalie Trenaman> :)
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[17:29:08] <timc (scribe)> on to last slide 9/9
[17:29:43] <timc (scribe)> any more comments or questions?
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[17:33:29] <timc (scribe)> chairs asking for more contributors to draft
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[17:33:38] <timc (scribe)> will do a call for adoption of the draft to the list
[17:34:17] <Lee Howard> Chairs note that if you aspire to become an HNCP expert, this is a great time to volunteer to co-author this draft.
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[17:34:30] <timc (scribe)> on to the naming architecture draft
[17:34:37] <timc (scribe)> slides - https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-homenet-2.pdf
[17:34:42] <Lee Howard> (That was me shamelessly encouraging new comers to participate)
[17:34:46] <timc (scribe)> slide 2/9
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[17:35:35] <timc (scribe)> slide 3/11
[17:37:29] <Lee Howard> sound okay with Tim now?
[17:37:35] <Nathalie Trenaman> fine
[17:38:28] <Andrew Sullivan> Given the number of people who (didn't) read the document, it'd be a good idea to get the overview out of the way before we start talking about things that are missing
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[17:39:19] <Andrew Sullivan> It was just a jabber remark.  I'm here :)
[17:39:43] <timc (scribe)> sorry!
[17:39:57] <Andrew Sullivan> no worries, and thanks.  Just apologising
[17:40:04] <timc (scribe)> ok so if its a mic thing pls put mic: before comment :)
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[17:41:16] <timc (scribe)> on to slide 4/11
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[17:42:53] <timc (scribe)> discussing slide 4/11 of https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-homenet-2.pdf
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[17:46:33] <timc (scribe)> slide 5/11
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[17:47:25] <timc (scribe)> slide 6/11
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[17:49:36] <Suzanne> domain names don't have language. ".homenet and all its translations" is not OK.
[17:50:10] <timc (scribe)> are you here? :)
[17:50:22] <Andrew Sullivan> And anyway, there's no way to find out what "its translation in the local language is" because we don't have a way of signalling that in DNS
[17:50:27] <Mark Townsley> .casa, .maison,… did we have to worry about this for .local?
[17:50:44] <Andrew Sullivan> No, because .local doesn't actually appear in user interfaces
[17:50:54] <Andrew Sullivan> you pick from a pick list that shows the labels you personally picked
[17:51:01] <timc (scribe)> true
[17:51:08] <Andrew Sullivan> and they all happen to resolve with [whatyoupicked].local.
[17:51:15] <Andrew Sullivan> but you never see the last label
[17:51:23] <Mark Townsley> then why would .homenet have to appear in any UI?
[17:51:29] <Andrew Sullivan> The i18n considerations here are miserable
[17:51:50] <Andrew Sullivan> because you have to do global resolution and it's allowed to be crankycanuck.ca _or_ .homener
[17:52:02] <Andrew Sullivan> [or whatever we use.  I suggest foobar. ;-) )
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[17:52:22] <timc (scribe)> i think it was either geoff huston or alain durand who was VERY vocal about this previously. but yeah…
[17:52:47] <Andrew Sullivan> It's an issue and it's important and we doubtless have to cope with it
[17:52:51] <timc (scribe)> slide 7/11
[17:52:56] <Andrew Sullivan> but it's also a completely intractable problem
[17:52:59] <mcr> maybe RIRs should/could be providing this forward unique (but ugly) namespace, as part of their delegation of the address space.
[17:53:18] <timc (scribe)> (btw i won't got to mic unless you prefix a comment with mic: )
[17:53:26] <timc (scribe)> slide 8/11
[17:53:43] <Suzanne> I'm not sure it's going to work to assume the reverse names will be populated for IPv6, but we can burn that bridge when we get to it.
[17:54:12] <Andrew Sullivan> No, we can't, if we're gonna build on top of this, given the WG's charter :-|
[17:54:57] <Andrew Sullivan> This part of the draft makes my teeth hurt.  I am pretty sure it's the only way to do it, but it's hideous
[17:55:21] <Lee Howard> Yeah, I was reading the doc to see what it actually said and didn't jump up in time.  I'll get in line when he's done.
[17:56:15] <Andrew Sullivan> As usual, Dave Thaler puts his finger directly on the fatal flaw
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[17:57:43] <timc (scribe)> :)
[17:57:59] <timc (scribe)> slide 9/11
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[17:58:50] <jch> What does DANE stand for?
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[17:59:00] <Andrew Sullivan> I decided not to get up for this, but section 3.8 does not make it clear that if you're using the non-unique name you can't talk to your own homenet
[17:59:19] <Andrew Sullivan> I forget the expansion but it's a way of putting keys in the DNS so you can look them up
[17:59:22] <Lee Howard> DNS-based Authentication of Named Entities (DANE) is
[17:59:23] <Andrew Sullivan> for TLS purposes
[17:59:30] <Markus Stenberg> DANE is DNS based security scheme (name => TLS key)
[17:59:30] <jch> ty
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[17:59:45] <Markus Stenberg> essentially to avoid global cert hierarchy if desired and-or harden the lookup potentially
[18:00:08] <Dave Thaler> yeah my point is if you're using a non-unique name, there's a lot of stuff that just won't work.  (security is one of many concerns)
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[18:00:23] <timc (scribe)> yeah
[18:00:24] <Andrew Sullivan> I agree, and that is way far from obvious in the doc ATM
[18:00:40] <timc (scribe)> worth a mic comment to get it in minutes...
[18:01:07] <mcr> We need to have a summit with the TR-69 community.
[18:01:36] <Lee Howard> It would be interesting to have an IETF and BBF collocated.
[18:01:44] <jch> TR-69?
[18:01:49] <timc (scribe)> slide 10/11
[18:02:15] <timc (scribe)> (again if you want me to relay at the mic put mic: at the start of your comment/question)
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[18:03:08] <jch> Answering myself: TR-69 is remote management of CPEs.
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[18:05:20] <timc (scribe)> discussion at mic ongoing - any questions or comments?
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[18:06:25] <Markus Stenberg> it actually depends - DNS-SD legacy browse is typically hidden (one flat list of services) and normal browse (one with domains) includes domain names also in service names in UI, typically; ironically enough legacy browse seems the more supported type
[18:06:33] <Markus Stenberg> feel free to relay that to mic as well if there's space ;)
[18:06:46] <timc (scribe)> there now
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[18:09:00] <Dave Thaler> I agree with Stuart's point, though I also don't believe the statement that ".local" never appears in UI.   Users can type it into "ssh foo.local" or into the address bar "http://foo.local/" etc.
[18:09:16] <Andrew Sullivan> Well, sure, but "ordinary users" don't do that
[18:09:34] <timc (scribe)> only 9 year olds :P
[18:09:51] <Andrew Sullivan> But I thought this all had to work with things like browsers, in which case what Stuart is suggesting is that all the user interfaces have to be updated to understand that
[18:09:58] <Lee Howard> True, but I think from Stuart's perspective, the app (whatever has that address bar) should have the localization that changes foo.casa to foo.local
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[18:10:30] <Dave Thaler> in that sense, "ordinary" users never type any name.   But in reality ordinary users see them in extra-ordinary cases.  but I think this is (or should be) largely out of scope of homenet.
[18:10:56] <Dave Thaler> (so I didn't get up at the mic)
[18:11:06] <Andrew Sullivan> But it can't be, is the point, because these kinds of things are going to leak all over
[18:11:16] <Dave Thaler> yes, just like .local
[18:11:18] <Andrew Sullivan> because _some_ of the names are of the form example.crankycanuck.ca
[18:11:32] <Andrew Sullivan> no, because local really is a protocol switch
[18:11:43] <Andrew Sullivan> whereas these are things that are supposed to be usable globally too
[18:11:52] <Dave Thaler> doesn't matter to the UI whether it's a protocol switch or a context switch within a protocol.
[18:11:59] <Dave Thaler> both leak.
[18:12:12] <Lee Howard> I think users will see, if not type, names, once we have this. In the short term, you'll browse to another device in the home to find content. In the long term, it'll feel like all one device (cloud).
[18:12:17] <Mikael Abrahamsson> if that's the case, then why don't we have "xm--foobar" style name? If the prefix is reserved it'll never collide with anything
[18:12:33] <Mikael Abrahamsson> instead of .homenet. that is...
[18:12:56] <Andrew Sullivan> The point is that applications that use mDNS _usually_ present them in pick lists and so on
[18:13:04] <Dave Thaler> I think the jabber room discussion is more interesting than the mic discussion, but I claim it's out of scope for homnet :)
[18:13:06] <Andrew Sullivan> which is a point that Stuart has beaten me with repeatedly
[18:13:09] <Dave Thaler> I disagree with that assertion.
[18:13:17] <timc (scribe)> theres a better discssion here than at the mic!
[18:13:37] <Markus Stenberg> Andrew, you're Stuart victim too? we should form a club
[18:13:37] <Dave Thaler> Apps that use names don't necessarily know whether they're using mdns.
[18:13:54] <Markus Stenberg> I used to believe in names mattering but Stuart semi-convinced me that only service names do, for normal people
[18:14:00] <Dave Thaler> Applications that *know* they're using mdns usually (I might admit) present them in pick lists.
[18:14:01] <Markus Stenberg> and after observing normal people I am starting to agree with him
[18:14:18] <Dave Thaler> Applications that *don't know* do whatever the applications do.
[18:14:22] <dave taht> markus - I sure wish I could find my media server when on the road.
[18:14:28] <Markus Stenberg> I mean, I lovingly polish my home zone file BUT that doesn't mean normal people
[18:14:32] <Markus Stenberg> I can find mine just fine ;)
[18:14:47] <timc (scribe)> well dave's use case should be supported
[18:15:04] <Markus Stenberg> well, I think OS X has supported that usecase after 10.4 or so
[18:15:08] <dave taht> That's my point. Users can't find "theirs" when on the road.
[18:15:12] <dave taht> thus the rise of the cloud
[18:15:13] <Markus Stenberg> i.o.w. DNS-update, DNS-SD service registration, remote browsing
[18:15:14] <dave taht> drop box
[18:15:15] <dave taht> etc.
[18:15:34] <Markus Stenberg> it never got off due to UI being worse (and people not having home servers), as opposed to 'always there' cloud
[18:15:43] <Markus Stenberg> and I cannot see any of my 'normal people' friends actually wanting to use home server
[18:15:53] <Markus Stenberg> while I have 15TB of RAID at home, they don't
[18:15:59] <Lee Howard> Are we getting anywhere on this name conversation?  It feels like we need 5-10 name nerds to sit down and hash out all the possibiliites and let us know.
[18:16:12] <Dave Thaler> The assertion that "xn--" was for applications to implement was a flawed assumption that led to the IAB RFC explaining why that's a bad assumption
[18:16:24] <Markus Stenberg> not optimistic about the naming going anywhere in general
[18:16:25] <Suzanne> I'm not going to waste realtime but the situation as I understand it is: ICANN has said delegation is "deferred indefinitely" for home, corp, and mail.The independent consultant that ICANN hired to advise them on name collision risks said that those names should be "referred to the IETF" for "RFC1918-like treatment". There are still applications for those names with ICANN. Someone did write a draft about adding those names to the special use names registry, which DNSOP did not advance.
[18:16:26] <Dave Thaler> (the one Stuart, John Klensin, and I co-authored I believe)
[18:16:28] <timc (scribe)> well, the cahirs tried to form a design team, but only Ted had time to pen
[18:16:41] <Markus Stenberg> but I am pessimist; pessimists seldom get only positive surprises
[18:16:55] <Markus Stenberg> they also get the worst outcomes they expect frequently enough :-p
[18:17:00] <timc (scribe)> I wonder if the applicant's money has been refunded Suzanne… sticky busin ess I fear
[18:17:07] <Suzanne> There is no current draft or discussion in DNSOP about reserving any of those names.
[18:17:38] <Suzanne> I believe Avri's comment that they're still being contended was a reference to the ICANN and its policy processes.
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[18:18:43] <Tim Wicinski> I'm qualified....to buy the beers
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[18:19:30] <Dave Thaler> (RFC 6055 is the number I was looking for above)
[18:19:50] <Andrew Sullivan> I think I agree with Dave about "applications that don't know", which was the issue that got me worried about this in the first place
[18:20:05] <Lee Howard> I'm qualified to drink the beers.
[18:20:28] <dave taht> I can get my own beer from the fridge.
[18:20:40] <timc (scribe)> fridge.homenet?
[18:20:53] <Andrew Sullivan> I guess the issue that worries me is that things like web interfaces to everything in the home are likely to start showing up.
[18:21:07] <Andrew Sullivan> now, I suppose there's an argument to be made that many of those will end up in mDNS anyway
[18:21:10] <timc (scribe)> well, they already are…
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[18:21:17] <Andrew Sullivan> so that's also a point.  And yes, they already are
[18:21:27] <Ralph> Suz - were you referring to draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds, Chapin/McFadden?
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[18:21:44] <timc (scribe)> /?
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[18:22:24] <Dave Thaler> is the jabber version of the bof ending now too? ;-)
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[18:23:15] <mcr> no, we can continue for weeks if you like.
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[19:23:32] cabo joins the room
[19:24:24] Tim Wicinski joins the room
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[19:28:41] Caciano Machado joins the room
[19:28:59] Caciano Machado leaves the room
[19:29:05] jch joins the room
[19:31:24] Lee Howard leaves the room
[19:33:11] Ralph leaves the room
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[19:40:46] cabo leaves the room
[19:44:16] Lee Howard joins the room
[20:06:12] Lee Howard leaves the room
[20:39:17] Mark Townsley joins the room
[22:57:10] Mark Townsley leaves the room
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