IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, November 3, 2015< ^ >
Peter van Dijk has set the subject to: Home Networking WG at IETF 93
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

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[00:00:03] Wentao Shang joins the room
[00:00:04] <Mark Andrews> meetecho does "remember me" actually do anything useful?
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[00:00:32] <Meetecho> working on the focus, thanks for noticing us
[00:00:58] <Meetecho> Mark Andrews: it should help you in not filling in name/affiliation any time you join a session
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[00:02:49] <Mark Andrews> well it doesn't appear too.  This is the fourth session.  3 w/ no prefill.
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[00:03:12] <Witold Krecicki> meetecho: it doesn't remember, even when my wifi disconnected me and I had to hit refresh I had to fill all the fields again.
[00:03:15] <Mark Andrews> after checking on the first
[00:03:36] <Meetecho> d'oh, seems to be working for us, we'll have to look into that
[00:03:38] Michael Richardson joins the room
[00:03:44] <Mark Andrews> thanks
[00:03:50] Ole Trøan joins the room
[00:03:51] <Michael Richardson> Ole is the Jabber relay. I'm his supervisor.
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[00:03:58] <Mark Andrews> chome on a macbook.
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[00:04:05] <Witold Krecicki> chrome on mint
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[00:05:08] <Ole Trøan> Hi, I'm the Jabber scribe. Is anyone remote?
[00:05:18] <Michael Richardson> we also have a virtual mic queue for the meetecho people.
[00:05:19] Juliusz Chroboczek joins the room
[00:05:30] <Witold Krecicki> Ole: yes
[00:05:35] Simon Romano joins the room
[00:05:45] <Ole Trøan> "WG Update" slide.
[00:06:07] Noguchi Shoji joins the room
[00:06:08] <Ole Trøan> Either use the virtual mic queue (preferred) or relay questions for the mic to me.
[00:06:30] Steve Olshansky joins the room
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[00:06:53] <Ole Trøan> "Routing Protocol Outcome" slide
[00:07:32] Juliusz Chroboczek joins the room
[00:07:39] <Ole Trøan> Chair's taking clarifying questions on the RP choice…
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[00:10:19] <Ole Trøan> Mikael Abrahamson @ mic
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[00:10:46] Juliusz Chroboczek leaves the room
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[00:11:01] <Ole Trøan> Next presentation. xNCP family updates, Steven Barth
[00:11:48] <Ole Trøan> All slides are here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/94/materials.html
[00:12:00] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-1.pdf
[00:12:04] <Ole Trøan> Slide 2
[00:12:20] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Am I the only person who doesn't get audio/video?
[00:13:14] <Mark Townsley> Meetecho people - is audio/video working?
[00:13:30] <Ole Trøan> Slide 3
[00:13:36] <Ole Trøan> Slide 4
[00:13:37] <Juliusz Chroboczek> (The mp3 stream is fine, so I still manage to listen to Steven's sweet voice.)
[00:13:42] <Mark Townsley> (thanks for jabbering Ole)
[00:15:01] <Ole Trøan> No problem!
[00:15:03] <Ole Trøan> Slide 5
[00:16:29] Simon Romano leaves the room
[00:16:34] <Ole Trøan> Slide 7
[00:17:45] <Ole Trøan> Slide 9
[00:19:02] Dave Thaler joins the room
[00:19:20] <Dave Thaler> why is there a kitten picture on a slide talking about dogfooding?  
[00:19:31] <Ole Trøan> Next presentation
[00:19:36] <Dave Thaler> unfair to kittehs!
[00:19:41] <Ole Trøan> Dogs eating cats?
[00:19:55] <Ole Trøan> SHSP, or, 'what else could DNCP do?'
[00:20:16] <Ole Trøan> Slide 2
[00:20:20] <Ole Trøan> "Motivation"
[00:20:45] <Ole Trøan> "security 101"
[00:22:16] Suzanne joins the room
[00:22:27] <Ole Trøan> 'rather non-novel idea'
[00:23:10] <Ole Trøan> 'shsp in a nutshell'
[00:24:20] <Ole Trøan> 'example shsp state'
[00:24:45] <Ole Trøan> 'interesting dncp-ish….'
[00:25:44] Witold Krecicki leaves the room
[00:26:19] <Ole Trøan> 'summary'
[00:26:33] Witold Krecicki joins the room
[00:27:11] <Ole Trøan> questions?
[00:27:17] <Ole Trøan> Lee Howard @ mic
[00:28:50] <Ole Trøan> Steven Barth: 'Host-route based wifi roaming'
[00:29:53] <Ole Trøan> Slide 3
[00:31:14] Suzanne leaves the room
[00:31:24] Suzanne joins the room
[00:32:13] <Witold Krecicki> meetecho is the android app up to date? It shows me IETF88 agenda...
[00:32:16] <Ole Trøan> Slide 3 (again?) Hmm "Approach: Host routes"
[00:32:24] <Meetecho> Witold Krecicki: no, sorry
[00:32:39] <Meetecho> we have to update it as the backend changed quite a lot
[00:32:46] Suzanne joins the room
[00:33:24] <Ole Trøan> Next slide: 'Some more fine-tuning: RAs"
[00:33:56] <Ole Trøan> Michael Richardson@Mic
[00:34:11] <Ole Trøan> Next slide
[00:34:22] <Ole Trøan> 'And finally statelessly proxy DAD'
[00:34:26] <Ole Trøan> Lorenzo Collitti@mic
[00:35:18] <Ole Trøan> Next slide: 'open points'
[00:36:32] <Ole Trøan> Lorenzo
[00:36:35] mikit_t@xmpp.jp joins the room
[00:38:12] <Ole Trøan> David L
[00:39:07] <Ole Trøan> Mikael Abrahamson@mic
[00:39:27] Simon Romano joins the room
[00:41:28] <Ole Trøan> Pierre Pfister@mic
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[00:44:14] Mark Townsley joins the room
[00:44:24] <Ole Trøan> Lorenzo
[00:46:25] <Ole Trøan> David L
[00:47:28] <Rafael de Amorim Silva> Hello People!!!! Good Morning for all!!!!
[00:48:14] Suzanne leaves the room
[00:49:43] <Ole Trøan> Michael R@mic
[00:51:37] <Ole Trøan> Someone remote should ask a question at some point so we can see the Meetecho virtual mic queue in practice! ;-)
[00:51:46] <Meetecho> :D
[00:51:55] <Meetecho> they're using it a lot in CORE right now!
[00:52:24] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Is it possible to cheer remotely?
[00:53:06] <Ole Trøan> Juliusz: I can relay on mic. ;-)
[00:54:49] <Ole Trøan> Lorenzo@mic
[00:57:38] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Heh, Markus and Steven taking over the IETF.
[00:58:04] <Mark Townsley> At least taking over the pink box on the stage floor.
[00:58:11] <Ole Trøan> Next presentation.
[00:58:15] <Michael Richardson> Marks and Spencer.
[00:58:22] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-4.pdf
[00:58:30] <Ole Trøan> 'Zone stitching…'
[00:58:48] Juliusz Chroboczek leaves the room
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[00:59:18] <Ole Trøan> Next slide
[00:59:26] Juliusz Chroboczek leaves the room
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[01:01:21] <Ole Trøan> 'Zone stitching disclaimers'
[01:02:05] <Ole Trøan> 'Implementation status'
[01:02:44] <Ole Trøan> Stuart Chesire @ mic
[01:03:20] Rafael de Amorim Silva leaves the room
[01:03:51] Borje Ohlman leaves the room
[01:04:04] <Ole Trøan> Mikael A@mic
[01:04:48] Rafael de Amorim Silva joins the room
[01:05:26] <Ole Trøan> Ray @ mic
[01:07:40] <Ole Trøan> Steven Barth@mic
[01:08:16] Borje Ohlman joins the room
[01:08:51] <Ole Trøan> Ted Lemon
[01:09:26] <Ole Trøan> Didn't get name
[01:11:18] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Interesting that Steven is assuming stateful DHPv6, even though it doesn't interact very well with HNCP.
[01:12:13] <Ole Trøan> Stuart Cheshire on the mic
[01:12:50] <Ole Trøan> Next presentation
[01:13:01] <Ole Trøan> Outsourcing home network name service
[01:13:12] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-5.pdf
[01:14:00] <Ole Trøan> Next slide: "log"
[01:15:47] <Ole Trøan> Nextd slide 'Next step'
[01:15:51] <Ole Trøan> Ted Lemon @mic
[01:16:36] <Ole Trøan> Mark Andrews Virtual
[01:16:56] <Meetecho> is it fine in the room?
[01:16:59] <Ole Trøan> Yes
[01:17:01] <Ole Trøan> Very good
[01:17:02] <Meetecho> (y)
[01:17:07] <Ole Trøan> and "hear hear" to his comment. ;-)
[01:17:21] <Ole Trøan> Markus Stenberg@mic
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[01:18:01] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Beautiful ceiling ;-)
[01:18:19] Borje Ohlman leaves the room
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[01:19:29] <Ole Trøan> Steven Barth@mic
[01:21:09] <Ole Trøan> Stuart C@mic
[01:22:16] <mikit_t@xmpp.jp> >Didn't get name
His name is Tominaga
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[01:23:29] <Ole Trøan> Slide Q1
[01:25:04] <Ole Trøan> Dave Thaler@mic
[01:25:08] <Ole Trøan> Slide: Q3
[01:26:31] <Ole Trøan> Chair's naming session
[01:27:01] <Ole Trøan> Slide 1: Open issue #1
[01:27:10] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-6.pdf
[01:28:07] <Ole Trøan> Michael R@mic
[01:28:10] <Ole Trøan> (soon)
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[01:29:33] <Ole Trøan> Markus S@mic
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[01:30:09] <Ole Trøan> Ralph Droms @ mic
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[01:30:58] <Ole Trøan> Next slide: "Internal cs External resolution"
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[01:32:09] <Ole Trøan> Ralph Droms@mic
[01:32:24] <Ole Trøan> Stuart C, Dave T, Markus S in line
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[01:37:34] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Thaler?
[01:37:47] <pusateri> yes
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[01:39:53] <Juliusz Chroboczek> And who is that?
[01:39:56] <Ole Trøan> Douglas Otis
[01:40:01] <Juliusz Chroboczek> ty
[01:40:41] <Mark Andrews> rock (4212) is what happens when you don't solve this problem
[01:41:04] <Mark Andrews> There is only one machine called rock.
[01:41:28] <Ole Trøan> or printer-27?
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[01:46:47] <Andrew Sullivan> I am pretty sure that this is the same spinning-knives discussion I tried to have with Doug in dnssd yesterday
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[01:47:28] <Ole Trøan> I'll suggest that the secretariat cover the floor around the mike in plastic to ease cleaning
[01:47:53] <Suzanne> @andrew with the additional element of a special use name
[01:47:54] <Mark Andrews> the user of the zone sets the border
[01:48:10] <Ole Trøan> New presentation
[01:48:19] <Ole Trøan> "use cases for multiple provisioning domain in homenet"
[01:48:22] <Ole Trøan> Liang Geng
[01:48:37] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-7.pdf
[01:50:14] <Juliusz Chroboczek> What's a "provisioning domain"?
[01:50:47] <Ole Trøan> Juliusz: No-one knows.
[01:51:20] <Dave Thaler> @Juliusz: a set of config that comes from a given authority (possibly via multiple ways)
[01:52:03] <Dave Thaler> e.g. the network admin of a given network might provision a set of info via RA+DHCP.  So that network is a provisioning domain.
[01:52:16] <Ole Trøan> Juliusz: A way for an ISP to create something looking like a PPPoE interface on a host. (:-))
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[01:52:52] <Ole Trøan> 'PvD in Homenet' slide
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[01:53:20] <Michael Richardson> a "provisioning domain" is the polite term for a walled-garden.
[01:53:47] <Michael Richardson> for me, it means, really, "marketing people didn't understand IPv6 and ACLs"
[01:53:48] <Dave Thaler> @Michael: disagree.   The IETF network here is a provisionig domain.  It's not a walled garden.
[01:54:44] <Michael Richardson> Dave: all of the IETF network DNS names are resolveable from any domain.  Most uses of PvDs want the names only resolvable when you are on "their" network.
[01:55:11] <Ole Trøan> 'PvD-aware node behaviour' slide
[01:55:14] <Dave Thaler> Disagree
[01:55:32] <Dave Thaler> most uses of PvDs are just how IP works today.
[01:56:03] <Dave Thaler> For example, just because you have a different DNS resolver IP address configured on each network doesn't mean you want a different DNS scope.
[01:56:11] <Juliusz Chroboczek> From the point of view of a host, it's an OS-wide data structure?
[01:56:21] <Ole Trøan> Next steps slide
[01:56:29] <Michael Richardson> Dave, I agree that it doesn't mandate that you have a different scope, but that's what the carriers want.
[01:56:53] <Dave Thaler> @Juliusz: correct. it's a container for config data obtained from various protocols (DHCPv4, DHCPv6, RAs, manual config, etc.) from a given source
[01:56:58] <Michael Richardson> Juliuz, yes, OS-wide, accessible into the application.
[01:57:09] <Ole Trøan> Ted Lemon @ mic
[01:57:19] <Ole Trøan> Homenet is a provisioning domain
[01:57:27] <Ole Trøan> and a PVD demarcation point
[01:57:40] <Ole Trøan> Leaking external PVDs into home doesn't seem like a good idea
[01:57:46] <Dave Thaler> agree
[01:59:06] <Michael Richardson> The VPN is a good example of a case where there are names which are only resolvable when you are connected... good ol' split-DNS... I built lots and lots and lots of those, and it's a total disaster. Even when you tell all that stuff to the applications, the users can not deal.
[01:59:11] <Dave Thaler> of course a host may be multihomed to both a homenet and (say) a 3G operator at the same time.
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[01:59:30] <Dave Thaler> the VPN case is another good example of multiple PvDs attached at the same time
[01:59:38] Ole Trøan leaves the room
[01:59:44] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Who's speaking?
[01:59:45] Ole Trøan joins the room
[01:59:51] <Dave Thaler> Mikael Abrahamsson
[02:00:11] <Ole Trøan> The VPN case is extremely tricky to get right in this case
[02:00:22] <Ole Trøan> Given the typical want to not do split tunnelling for example.
[02:00:42] <Ole Trøan> And require authentication for users… So I can't quite see how you can do VPNs in homenet
[02:00:53] <Suzanne> @michael, see also yesterday's DNSSD "rotating knives" discussion
[02:00:56] <Ole Trøan> At least not corporate VPNs
[02:00:59] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Ole, Dave, mcr, it sounds like you're going though a fun discussion abohis stuff.ut t
[02:01:09] <Suzanne> re: split brain names
[02:01:11] <Ole Trøan> Steven Barth new presentation
[02:01:20] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-8.pdf
[02:01:27] <Ole Trøan> Slide 2
[02:01:31] <Michael Richardson> Suzanne, I'll go look it up, or persuade you to tell me about it in person.
[02:02:00] <Suzanne> :)
[02:02:34] <Ole Trøan> Slide 3
[02:03:07] <Dave Thaler> yellow on white is really hard to read
[02:03:33] <Andrew Sullivan> I'll say
[02:03:53] <Mark Townsley>     5. "Duplication..."
[02:03:57] <Ole Trøan> That's the colour to use when you can later claim "I told you so"
[02:04:03] <Mark Townsley> 6. "Requires individual…"
[02:04:26] <Dave Thaler> :) Ole
[02:04:34] <Mark Townsley> I think he was trying to convey "Bad" "Really Bad" and "Really Really Bad"
[02:04:45] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Why are the security issues different from ordinary RA/DHCPv6?  Why an additional signature?
[02:05:06] <Ole Trøan> Juliusz: Please ask the question at the mic
[02:05:06] <Mark Townsley> Inversely proportional to readability.
[02:05:19] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Ole, I'm shy.
[02:05:38] <Mark Townsley> Ole, would you proxy?
[02:05:40] <Dave Thaler> Um... maybe because no one does secure RA or secure DHCPv6 so we need another security mechanism (that no one will implement either)?
[02:05:40] <Ole Trøan> :-)
[02:05:56] <Mark Townsley> Unless Dave just answered it in parallel
[02:06:08] <Juliusz Chroboczek> mic: the fact that there's an additional signature seems to imply that the security considerations for this information are different.  Could you please explain why this is the case?
[02:06:16] <Dave Thaler> mic ack
[02:06:24] <Mark Townsley> Thanks, Dave
[02:06:38] <Juliusz Chroboczek> ok
[02:07:23] <Ole Trøan> Suresh@mic
[02:07:33] <Dave Thaler> close enough Juliusz?
[02:07:47] <Michael Richardson> Dave, you got his name better than I ever did :-)
[02:07:53] <Dave Thaler> thanks :)
[02:08:23] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Aha, end-to-end.  Thank him please.
[02:08:34] <Ole Trøan> Markus Stenberg @mic
[02:08:43] <Mark Townsley> Hat off: My understanding is that when you cross an administrative domain with signed information, you naturally hit a point where additional signing might be necessary, new keys, different trust, etc.
[02:08:52] <Michael Richardson> yes, end to end. wow. would be nice to have....
[02:09:17] <Ole Trøan> Alternatives slide
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[02:09:51] <Mark Townsley> Admission of awkward coloring from Steven.
[02:10:24] <Mark Townsley> That Yellow is Green on Ray's laptop.
[02:10:27] <Ole Trøan> Michael R@mic
[02:10:40] <Dave Thaler> @Mark: on my screen too, must be a projector issue
[02:11:06] <Dave Thaler> meetecho, note that the projector in this room has weird color...
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[02:11:47] <Dave Thaler> probably just an in-room hardware weirdness
[02:11:56] <Meetecho> Dave Thaler: do you mean weird on the beamer or in the slides feed?
[02:12:03] <Meetecho> it looks fine in our monitor
[02:12:18] <Meetecho> we'll come check, thanks for noticing
[02:12:27] <Dave Thaler> on the screen in the room, if it looks green to remote people that's a good thing
[02:12:29] <Ole Trøan> Markus S@mic
[02:12:41] <Mark Townsley> Green is the right color. Beamer is wrong.
[02:13:13] <Ole Trøan> Ran A @ mic
[02:13:21] <Ole Trøan> I think??
[02:13:21] <Mark Andrews> day glow is wrong whatever shade
[02:13:30] <Meetecho> the background is white in our slides feed: we just checked with the webcam and the beamer has indeed a greeny bg it shouldn't have
[02:13:38] <Meetecho> notifying the A/V guys right now
[02:13:50] <Ole Trøan> Next slide: Host behaviour in detail"
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[02:17:43] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Ah-ha.  Suddently, there's the mysterious bits of HNCP that make sense.
[02:22:27] <Ole Trøan> Lee Howard
[02:22:31] <Ole Trøan> Ian F
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[02:23:21] <Ole Trøan> Erik Kline
[02:25:06] <Mark Andrews> meetecho: it would be useful to not grey out the video not published so you can get the lighting right
[02:25:31] <Mark Andrews> A band is fine.
[02:25:54] <Meetecho> Mark Andrews: we did that to make it clearer that you're not being published, as in some test runs this seemed not to be obvious to some users
[02:26:08] <Meetecho> we'll try and revisit this in the next versions, thanks for the feedback!
[02:26:45] <Ole Trøan> Next presentation: Multiple PVDs using DNS
[02:27:14] Suzanne leaves the room
[02:27:23] <Michael Richardson> %host crappy.net
crappy.net has address 69.172.201.208
[02:27:38] <Ole Trøan> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-homenet-9.pdf
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[02:29:15] <Juliusz Chroboczek> Ole et al, thanks for your help.
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[02:29:46] <Ole Trøan> Hope it was a help. Feedback from remote people on how well scribing works is helpful
[02:30:05] <Juliusz Chroboczek> It's very helpful -- absolutely impossible to follow without it.
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[02:30:51] <ida leung> thumb up
[02:31:00] <ida leung> so we cannot see the demo remotely?
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[03:54:40] each leaves the room
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[07:54:53] Jinmei Tatuya leaves the room
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[09:36:56] Jinmei Tatuya leaves the room
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[09:53:09] Rafael de Amorim Silva leaves the room
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[14:20:10] Jinmei Tatuya leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[15:03:11] Mark Townsley joins the room
[15:04:18] Mark Townsley leaves the room
[23:43:23] Mark Townsley leaves the room
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