IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 22, 2015< ^ >
DanYork has set the subject to: Home Networking WG at IETF 91
Room Configuration
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[11:01:46] Peter van Dijk has set the subject to: Home Networking WG at IETF 93
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[11:04:33] <james woodyatt> Hello, my name is James, and I'll be your voice at the microphone.
[11:04:47] <Ted Lemon> Hello, James!   Thanks for scribing!
[11:04:53] <Ted Lemon> Or voicing, I guess. :)
[11:04:56] Jiazi Yi joins the room
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[11:05:16] <kerneis> hi, is there an audio stream available?
[11:05:28] <kerneis> (I am admittedly lost on ietf.org)
[11:05:35] <james woodyatt> Meetecho is so awesome. There is audio and video in the Meetecho.
[11:05:44] <Meetecho> :)
[11:05:50] <james woodyatt> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf93/homenet
[11:05:51] <Meetecho> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf93/homenet
[11:05:52] <Ted Lemon> https://grandhiltonballroom.conf.meetecho.com/meetecho/Index.jsp
[11:06:26] <Ted Lemon> Audio is a bit dropout-y.
[11:06:26] Gabriel Kerneis joins the room
[11:06:49] <Ted Lemon> A lot dropout-y now.
[11:06:50] <kerneis> got it, thanks
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[11:10:32] <Ted Lemon> meetecho, audio is dropping out and clipping.
[11:11:09] <kerneis> works almost well for me (clipping, not dropping)
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[11:12:41] <Wes George> have you tried the m3u version from the IETF page?
[11:12:57] <Wes George> that'll help to determine if it's a problem with meetecho specifically
[11:13:11] <Meetecho> we're looking into that
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[11:16:29] <Meetecho> mp3 sounds better than meetecho audio, yes, but we reduced a bit of the levels so that should be better now (by the way, mp3 and meetecho audio are captured by the same machine)
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[11:17:00] <jch> 150 people?
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[11:18:22] <Russ Mundy> @meetecho: reconnected about 1 min ago & the sound is now better
[11:18:22] <Mark Townsley> Hi everyone. Very happy to be here in person this time! :-)
[11:18:50] <james woodyatt> (Y)
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[11:20:00] <Ted Lemon> :)
[11:21:24] <Mark Townsley> Ah, looks like Pierre Pfister is finished in Bier. Thanks to the Bier chairs for putting his talk early in the agenda to help manage the conflict.
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[11:24:05] <Mark Townsley> Pretty full room here.
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[11:24:47] <Mark Townsley> Smile, you are about to be on Facebook.
[11:25:28] <Nathalie  Trenaman> :)
[11:25:29] <Victor Kuarsingh> Display unit appears to not be in focus (in room)
[11:26:02] <Victor Kuarsingh> I am willing to adjust as I am 1ft from unit (if folks agree it's out of focus)
[11:27:58] <Mark Townsley> Please do Victor.
[11:28:01] <Ted Lemon> Might be better for meetecho folks to do it, but yes, it is out of focus.
[11:28:07] <Mark Townsley> You get a star for being our A/V club guy.
[11:28:31] <Mark Townsley> Hi Ted, sure, if there are Meetecho guys available, but I trust Victor. He's an engineer.
[11:29:15] <Meetecho> :D
[11:29:25] <Ted Lemon> Second HNCP daemon?
[11:30:03] <Meetecho> if you mean out of focus in the slides video feed, though, that's what we get out of the beamer, so it's the source that is like that
[11:30:16] <Ted Lemon> Nope, the presenter is out of focus.
[11:30:21] <Meetecho> aaah ok
[11:30:28] <Meetecho> then lease don't touch the webcam in the room
[11:30:29] <Ted Lemon> This is not a very serious problem.   :)
[11:30:33] <Meetecho> we can handle that from here
[11:30:51] <Ted Lemon> Thanks.   Slides look fine.
[11:30:56] <Ted Lemon> Well, aside from the font.
[11:32:05] <Mark Townsley> Very entertaining presentation here based on the chuckles in the room :-)
[11:32:50] <Mark Townsley> Reminds me of Proteon code ;-)
[11:36:29] Dave Thaler joins the room
[11:37:43] <Mark Townsley> "We are homenet, this is a MUST" is a remnant from RFC 6204 heritage.
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[11:38:05] <Mark Townsley> (now 7084)
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[11:39:17] <james woodyatt> ...which was V6OPS not HOMENET.
[11:40:28] <james woodyatt> (Joining the queue for the microphone now.)
[11:40:55] <Mark Townsley> Indeed. Why I called it Heritage…. Homenet was born for the Home side, while v6ops focused on the WAN side as that interacted with the ISP of course.
[11:41:23] <Mark Townsley> But there seems to be some genetic code passed down based on JC's comment.
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[11:42:46] <Mark Townsley> Anyone who writes an implementation from scratch and gives such a great report on the good, bad, and ugly of it deserves an award. Thank you Juliusz. Jari, maybe we need an "Independent Implementor Award" for such efforts ;-)
[11:43:16] <james woodyatt> The V6OPS culture can be somewhat ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US at times.
[11:43:29] <jch> Thanks, Mark.
[11:43:41] Christian Hopps leaves the room
[11:49:53] <Nathalie  Trenaman> who's that at the mic?
[11:50:07] <Ted Lemon> Teco Boot?
[11:50:10] <Jiazi Yi> Teco, I think
[11:50:15] <Nathalie  Trenaman> tnx
[11:50:27] <james woodyatt> Teco Boot.
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[11:50:43] <james woodyatt> (Joining the queue for the mic.)
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[12:28:00] <Ted Lemon> Stay in the bo-o-o-oxxx!
[12:28:14] <kerneis> :-)
[12:28:33] <kerneis> or, you know, build a bigger box
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[12:28:49] <Ted Lemon> Maybe the camera could auto-pan to track the presenter...
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[12:29:35] <Meetecho> Ted Lemon: it's something we'd love to do, but we found no way to do that yet
[12:29:42] <kerneis> or people remote-control it, and it would move based on the average of requests
[12:29:49] <Meetecho> you have to rely on our director to follow people around in 8 rooms at the same time :)
[12:29:52] <kerneis> (terrible idea)
[12:29:57] <Nathalie  Trenaman> thanks :)
[12:30:04] <Meetecho> we do control them remotely
[12:30:14] <kerneis> I meant people on the internet :-)
[12:30:18] <Suzanne> who, the directors?
[12:30:24] <Meetecho> aah then I agree it might be dangerous :D
[12:30:40] <Ted Lemon> you control people on the internet?
[12:31:02] <Ted Lemon> wow, really jumpy controls!
[12:31:10] <Meetecho> too much zoom, sorry :)
[12:31:15] <Ted Lemon> :)
[12:32:16] <Ted Lemon> It's really not that big a deal.
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[12:32:49] <John Scudder> can the remote attendees please request Russ to pat his head and rub his belly? This pink-box thing is fun.
[12:33:01] <Ole Trøan> at least the cameraman got some practice
[12:33:04] <Ted Lemon> And can he hop around on one foot?
[12:33:18] <Meetecho> :)
[12:33:22] <Ted Lemon> Yes, Barbara!   Thank you!
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[12:34:33] <Ted Lemon> Maybe homenet should just join the provider's routing cloud.
[12:35:12] <Ted Lemon> This conversation could go on long enough that we never hear Russ' conclusion.
[12:35:17] <David L.> Ted: I think we need 64-bit ASNs ;)
[12:35:19] <Jason Weil> Is that a recommendation Ted? ;)
[12:35:19] <Ole Trøan> so the homenet could provide transit from ISP A to ISP B?
[12:35:33] <Ted Lemon> Ole: exactly.
[12:35:37] <Ted Lemon> Jason: no, not at all.
[12:35:58] <Ted Lemon> David, clearly we do, in order to do transit from ISP A to ISP B.
[12:35:59] <Ole Trøan> Ted: That would save on peering costs wouldn't it. ;)
[12:36:04] <Ted Lemon> Yes.
[12:36:33] <Ted Lemon> Improves usability too.
[12:37:17] <Mark Townsley> I know we are not talking OSPF, but for an example of what AC means for a protocol is RFC 7503
[12:37:29] <Mark Townsley> which was motivated by the early work in Homenet.
[12:37:39] <Mark Townsley> (well, the advancement of was motivated)
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[12:39:37] <Mark Townsley> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boutier-babel-source-specific-01
[12:39:52] <Ted Lemon> Russ is getting a quick introduction into how we've managed not to agree on this for so long.
[12:40:20] <james woodyatt> >(
[12:42:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> The mic is saying basically a really long version of, "It's not clear what the requirement is," surely
[12:43:09] <John Scudder> SMH
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[12:44:30] <ajsaf@jabber.org> On equipment I run, I don't "input" metrics.  The equipment measures stuff and generates metrics.  Why is this not "just metrics"?  It's an unmanaged network.  State view of the topology is surely nuts.
[12:44:53] <John Scudder> +1
[12:49:51] <Ted Lemon> Sold!
[12:50:13] <John Scudder> he forgot twitter
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[12:51:04] <Suzanne> by that reasoning, go for broke: EMACS.
[12:51:19] <Ted Lemon> Emacs Makes All Computing Simple.   It's right there in the name!
[12:51:45] <Wes George> as I put on twitter the other day, "OH: If you need to pull it, put it in DNS, if you need to push it, put it in BGP"
[12:52:25] <Mark Townsley> DT Charter for reference: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/homenet/c0sX3g0mFcu7Mtj43eC7PD6fkBA
[12:52:27] <Ted Lemon> I am a little frustrated that the design group was entirely running silent, apparently.   I didn't hear a thing from them, and it sounds like most of the principles in the working group didn't either.
[12:52:32] <John Scudder> the Bag of Goop Protocol?
[12:55:33] <Ted Lemon> The design team was supposed to make a recommendation _because the working group couldn't come to consensus_!
[12:56:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> https://xkcd.com/927/ ?
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[12:58:11] <John Scudder> I see no reason a coin toss shouldn't be an option. If you have rough consensus in the WG for it. Why not?
[12:58:21] <John Scudder> Turtles all the way down, though.
[12:58:42] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Given the outcome of the design team, also, it sounds like a coin toss _is_ an option
[12:58:54] <james woodyatt> (Going to the microphone in anticipation of comments from the Jabber participants.)
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[13:00:23] <Wes George> my concern as a member of the design team is that if we had made a decision, there's enough wiggle room in the requirements to end up being told we're playing favorites and appeal the decision as being not acceptably objective regardless of which we choose
[13:00:33] <Wes George> (not for the mic, just for the record)
[13:01:02] <Ted Lemon> I think the working group actually knows the answers to the questions Russ asked.
[13:01:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> This discussion (along with the last three times it happened) reminds me of the old saw, "The reason academic disputes are so nasty is because the stakes are so small."  As near as I've ever been able to tell, there is really no reason to prefer strongly one approach over another, and the only really critical thing is to pick one.
[13:01:27] <Ted Lemon> mic: if we can get working group consensus, we could just spin the requirements doc.
[13:02:08] <james woodyatt> ok ted.
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[13:02:27] <Ted Lemon> that is, with just the changes that Russ asked for, nothing else negotiable.
[13:03:13] <james woodyatt> should i say "in all seriousness?" (I plan to adopt a tone of voice to convey that it's a serious comment.)
[13:03:31] <Ted Lemon> It is a serious comment.
[13:03:41] <james woodyatt> ok
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[13:04:03] <ajsaf@jabber.org> _Someone_ will make a decision.  Go nuts.
[13:04:48] <jch> What's the name of the AD who just spoke?  And which area?
[13:04:52] <Ted Lemon> Terry
[13:04:53] <Ted Lemon> INT
[13:04:55] <Ted Lemon> This is Brian.
[13:04:58] <Ted Lemon> also INT
[13:05:01] <jch> ty
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[13:06:54] <Ted Lemon> Actually James I think the conversation has gone past what I was proposing to say, so maybe it's better not to bother.
[13:09:26] <james woodyatt> ok
[13:11:04] <Ted Lemon> yup.
[13:13:51] <Ted Lemon> is that Suzanne?
[13:13:52] <Wes George> margaret Wasserman
[13:13:55] <Ted Lemon> No, Margaret.
[13:13:57] <Ted Lemon> :)
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[13:17:31] <Russ Mundy> I certainly agree with Margaret
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[13:17:47] <ajsaf@jabber.org> "What are we going to do tonight, Brain?"  "Same thing we do every meeting … Fight Over Routing!"
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[13:17:56] <Wes George> :-)
[13:18:15] <Ted Lemon> It's pretty obvious to me that Babel is farther along than IS-IS, but apparently this is not broadly accepted as true.
[13:18:37] <Laurent Ciavaglia> Would it cost less (mney and time) to impose both protocols...?
[13:18:38] <Wes George> ted, that is less obvious to me as someone staring at it from outside
[13:18:52] <Ted Lemon> how are you more outside than I?
[13:19:03] <Russ Mundy> If one is not specified, there should be mods to at least the HNCP document to say there should be one per each installation
[13:19:16] <Wes George> my involvement in homenet is limited to the design team
[13:19:29] <Wes George> so I don't have the history that the former responsible AD would have
[13:19:34] <Ted Lemon> right, but babel already has one of the required features, which is-is lacks, as the speaker is stating.
[13:19:47] <Ted Lemon> this is really straightforward.
[13:20:08] <Ted Lemon> I mean, the one advantage to leaving it to the market is that Babel currently has a clear advantage.
[13:22:03] <james woodyatt> I've decided that I don't want HOMENET to choose a routing protocol and I don't want an election process added to HNCP. I plan to say this at the microphone.
[13:22:34] <jch> I'd like the chairs to ask the room who read the IS-IS spec, and who read the Babel spec.
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[13:23:48] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I also don't care if the WG does that
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[13:24:23] <ajsaf@jabber.org> What I cannot see is the reason to circle this drain for another 30 meetings
[13:24:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (where "that" is "don't pick and publish what we have")
[13:24:46] Casper Meijn joins the room
[13:25:16] <Ted Lemon> it would be better to risk an appeal than to continue not risking an appeal.
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[13:25:41] <james woodyatt> who is ajsaf?
[13:25:46] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Andrew Sullivan
[13:25:47] <ajsaf@jabber.org> sorry
[13:25:48] <Ted Lemon> I think it's Andrew Sullivan.
[13:25:54] <Ted Lemon> heh
[13:26:07] <james woodyatt> ok
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[13:26:39] <akatlas> I'd be fine with an appeal - as long as there was a decision.
[13:27:06] <Ted Lemon> this is of course _exactly_ the outcome we expected.
[13:27:08] <John Scudder> I think I just saw a recommendation
[13:27:19] <Ted Lemon> we knew this going into the process.
[13:27:28] <John Scudder> And within zero seconds, validation for the design team's trepidation
[13:27:32] <akatlas> Ted - no
[13:28:00] <Ole Trøan> an active no decision decision seems awfully attractive...
[13:28:09] <Ted Lemon> with all due respect, it was obvious to me that this would be the decision that came out of the routing area, because the routing area was clearly not okay with a decision that chose babel.
[13:28:14] <Ole Trøan> not because making a choice is too hard, but because it no longer matters much...
[13:28:26] <Ole Trøan> Ted: indeed.
[13:28:33] <Nathalie  Trenaman> Ole :o
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[13:28:57] <John Scudder> Is that the usual meaning of "all due respect"?
[13:29:06] <Wes George> :-)
[13:29:09] <Ted Lemon> I have a tremendous amount of respect for Alia.
[13:29:12] <ajsaf@jabber.org> @John in current use, I think so, yes.
[13:29:16] <Ted Lemon> I just think this was a completely predictable outcome!
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[13:30:07] <kerneis> yes
[13:30:11] <Russ Mundy> yes
[13:30:12] <kerneis> I am in Paris :-)
[13:30:15] <John Scudder> sorry, I didn't mean to jump the line!
[13:30:18] <Nathalie  Trenaman> I'm in Amsterdam
[13:30:34] <james woodyatt> Well, okay then.
[13:30:41] <Ted Lemon> Alia, I think it was worth trying.   I'm just not surprised by the outcome.   Thank you for organizing it.   I'm sorry if my comments suggested that I wished we hadn't--that's not the case.
[13:31:29] <Wes George> Ted, go propose a BABEL WG instead of complaining about the predisposition on ISIS
[13:31:34] <Wes George> kinda tired of hearing this
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[13:31:48] <Ted Lemon> We talked about that in Dallas, but it didn't happen.
[13:32:01] <Wes George> not the DT's fault
[13:32:05] <Ted Lemon> Nope.
[13:32:11] <Ole Trøan> Does anyone think that the frustration and time spent on this issue in homenet has been worth it? And the talk about lack of requirements certainly isn't helpful or very constructive...
[13:32:16] <Wes George> fwiw, we've been telling the AD's teh same thing
[13:32:20] <kerneis> jch asked for guidance IIRC, but then it died somehow
[13:32:21] <Ted Lemon> I don't htink the design team made a mistake here.
[13:32:26] <Wes George> that they should jsut go ahead and spin it up
[13:32:56] <Russ Mundy> it still seems important to have HNCP contain a flag of some sort to identify what routing protocol to use
[13:33:39] <james woodyatt> If I were one of the authors of RFC 7368, I'd be a bit peeved at this We Don't Have Clear Requirements line.
[13:34:00] <Ole Trøan> 7368 was never written as a requirements for a new routing protocol
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[13:34:09] <Ted Lemon> I understand why they didn't seem clear to the design team.   I think the working group was clear on what the requirements were, but language is hard.
[13:34:12] <Ole Trøan> it is the homenet architecture draft...
[13:34:19] <Wes George> ted, yes.
[13:34:21] <Wes George> exactly
[13:34:31] <Wes George> multiple answers from multiple people
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[13:34:59] <John Scudder> @james, I dunno, they wrote a 'spec', someone tried to implement the 'spec' (the DT), the implementors said "your spec is unclear". Being peeved is the wrong reaction of the authors of a spec to hearing their spec is not implementable.
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[13:35:02] <james woodyatt> Writing is difficult, but technical reading is a skill too.
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[13:35:56] <Ted Lemon> Clarifying questions really would have been nice.   That is my main gripe, although I also understand why the DT didn't want to talk to the working group.
[13:36:19] <Ole Trøan> The DT didn't talk to the authors of 7368 either.
[13:36:23] <akatlas> the DT did ask some questions - they thought they'd gotten answers from the chairs
[13:36:29] <John Scudder> that is the most sense I've heard in this whole meeting (the dog food comment)
[13:36:30] <akatlas> did any of you reach out to the IETF
[13:36:32] <Ted Lemon> The working group is the author of 7358.
[13:36:51] <Ted Lemon> IS-IS doesn't have support for link metrics today.   Babel does.
[13:36:52] <Ole Trøan> Ted so neither working group nor authors then for clarification.
[13:37:09] <akatlas> Link metric assignment doesn't belong in the routing protocol
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[13:37:16] <John Scudder> The statement about metrics is perplexing.
[13:37:17] Wes George leaves the room
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[13:37:26] <Ted Lemon> And there goes the audio.
[13:37:27] <John Scudder> At least one of us is very confused.
[13:37:36] <kerneis> :-(
[13:37:38] <Nathalie  Trenaman> audio and video gone...
[13:37:39] <Jiazi Yi> I think the meetecho is broken?
[13:37:44] Steve Simlo leaves the room
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[13:37:49] <Ted Lemon> Nope, we're just over our time limit.
[13:37:56] <Ted Lemon> Alia, thanks for trying.
[13:37:57] <Nathalie  Trenaman> oh
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