IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, July 25, 2014< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
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[13:01:57] Dave Thaler has set the subject to: Home Networking WG at IETF 90
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[13:03:43] <Dave Thaler> chair slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-0.pdf
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[13:04:17] <Simon Romano> Presentation is over
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[13:04:18] <Dave Thaler> mark on routing
[13:04:27] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-1.pdf
[13:04:34] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: From    
 IETF    
 89…    
 
[13:04:34] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Rou$ng    
 Protocol    
 Selec$on    
 
[13:04:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: From    
 IETF    
 89…    
 
[13:04:44] Juliusz Chroboczek joins the room
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[13:05:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Dave    
 Thaler:    
 
[13:06:08] Tero Kivinen joins the room
[13:06:26] <Tobia Castaldi> hi all, FYI a Meetecho session is avalaible at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf90/homenet
[13:06:33] William Lupton joins the room
[13:06:37] Tero Kivinen leaves the room
[13:06:59] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: “Zero,    
 One    
 or    
 2     
 Rou$n
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[13:07:31] <Dave Thaler> if you want anything relayed to the mic, please prefix with "MIC:"
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[13:08:56] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Ideas    
 for    
 the    
 process    
 of
[13:09:38] <William Lupton> i am finding mark's voice quite distorted… is he very close to the MIC?
[13:09:48] <Dave Thaler> it sounds fine in the room here
[13:09:48] <Ted Lemon> yes
[13:09:50] <David Lamparter> room audio is good
[13:09:53] <Ted Lemon> it's a bit loud
[13:11:07] <jch> He has a good point about suggestion 2.
[13:11:21] sarikaya2012 joins the room
[13:11:28] <Dave Thaler> Hannes Tschofenig
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[13:11:42] <Dave Thaler> Michael Richardson
[13:11:42] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: “Zero,    
 One    
 or    
 2     
 Rou$n
[13:11:53] Rick Payne joins the room
[13:13:17] <Dave Thaler> David Lamparter
[13:13:59] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Collitti
[13:16:04] <Dave Thaler> Marcus Steinberg
[13:17:15] <Dave Thaler> Ted Lemon
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[13:18:54] <jch> Why three?
[13:19:14] <jch> I see at least four contenders.
[13:19:39] <Dave Thaler> Kerry Lynn
[13:19:51] <Dave Thaler> (if you want MIC relay, prefix comment with "MIC:")
[13:20:51] <Dave Thaler> Mikael Abrahamson
[13:21:26] <Dave Thaler> Acee Linden
[13:21:54] <Dave Thaler> David Lamparter
[13:22:17] <Ted Lemon> Because three-sided dice are cool.   :)
[13:22:29] <Dave Thaler> Ran Atkinson
[13:22:34] resnick joins the room
[13:23:04] <David Lamparter> jch: babel, isis, ospf - what's the 4th?
[13:23:11] <jch> RIPng
[13:23:19] <David Lamparter> let me answer that on mic
[13:23:45] Andrew Yourtchenko joins the room
[13:23:52] <jch> k
[13:24:18] <Dave Thaler> Steven Barns(?)
[13:24:24] <jch> Barth?
[13:24:31] <Dave Thaler> Barth yes
[13:25:00] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Collitti
[13:25:13] Stefanie Gerdes joins the room
[13:25:45] <Dave Thaler> Hannes Tschofenig
[13:26:36] <David Lamparter> (didn't bring it up on mic, didn't make sense)
[13:26:53] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Collitti
[13:27:07] <jch> No bother.
[13:27:44] <Dave Thaler> next presentation, no slides, Mikael Abrahamson
[13:28:20] <Dave Thaler> Abrahamsson
[13:28:25] <jch> "Replacing Babel".  I'm so proud :-)
[13:28:44] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: undefined
[13:29:06] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Colitti
[13:30:17] <Dave Thaler> Ted Lemon
[13:30:38] Wolfgang Beck joins the room
[13:31:51] <Dave Thaler> Uma from Ericsson
[13:32:02] <Dave Thaler> Acee Lindem
[13:32:39] <Dave Thaler> (I think it was Uma Chunduri)
[13:32:44] <Dave Thaler> Dave Taht
[13:33:25] <Dave Thaler> Uma Chunduri
[13:33:44] <Dave Thaler> next preso, Li Xue
[13:33:48] matthijs joins the room
[13:34:02] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-2.pdf
[13:34:06] <mcharlesr> RPL could do src/dst routing by forming a DODAG from each exit router for the prefix involved, and then the common host-based problem of selecting the right source address to use for a given destination (that's a FIB problem common to all routing protocols)
[13:34:32] David Lamparter leaves the room: offline
[13:34:39] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: IETF #90
[13:34:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Why Hybrid Access Network is needed?
[13:34:43] David Lamparter joins the room
[13:34:59] <David Lamparter> i'd say the thing to do with RPL is to define a clear border and interface
[13:35:10] <David Lamparter> RPL will have its own very specific routing anyway
[13:35:26] <Ted Lemon> That's what the architecture doc suggests.
[13:35:31] <David Lamparter> so, as long as we can interchange reachability info - all is fine
[13:35:33] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Use Cases
[13:36:22] <Dave Thaler> @David: interchange between routing protocols?
[13:36:22] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: An Example of Hybrid Access Network
[13:37:01] <David Lamparter> Dave Thaler: well, we may need to assign a prefix to RPL and ensure that prefix is reachable in the homenet
[13:37:17] <jch> David Lamparter: could you please drop by on #babel on Freenode, there's a couple questions I'd like to ask you without bothering everyone.
[13:37:30] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Traffic Distribution
[13:38:50] <mcharlesr> David Lamparter, I see zero problems either interoperating RPL with another protocol (or just DHCPv6-PD), or with having RPL in the home.
[13:39:01] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Traffic Distribution cont’
[13:39:05] <David Lamparter> mcharlesr, neither do I :)
[13:39:05] <mcharlesr> (I say this with both implementer and co-chair hat on)
[13:39:25] <David Lamparter> it seems to me that people just keep waving this around as issue to be considered
[13:40:00] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: What IETF Work is needed
[13:40:31] Brian Carpenter joins the room
[13:42:13] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Solutions
[13:43:31] <Simon Romano> Slide 9: Why Homenet
[13:44:15] <Simon Romano> Slide 10: Feedback
[13:44:30] <Simon Romano> Slide 11: BBF Activity
[13:45:29] <Dave Thaler> Mark Townsley speaking as chair
[13:46:10] <Dave Thaler> Erik Kline
[13:46:33] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Colitti
[13:47:27] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: An Example of Hybrid Access Network
[13:47:38] <Dave Thaler> (chairs speaking)
[13:48:00] <Dave Thaler> (Ray Bellis and then Mark Townsley)
[13:49:32] <Dave Thaler> Erik Kline
[13:50:50] <Dave Thaler> Marcus Stenberg
[13:50:54] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[13:50:56] <Dave Thaler> (Markus)
[13:51:05] <Dave Thaler> Sri Gundavelli
[13:52:19] Brian Carpenter leaves the room
[13:53:35] <Dave Thaler> Mikael Abrahamsson
[13:54:10] <Ted Lemon> Why are we even discussing this here?
[13:55:07] <David Lamparter> there isn't enough air movement in the room
[13:55:12] <jch> Ted Lemon: sounds like something that would be worthy of Informational, Individual Submissin, no?
[13:55:20] <Dave Thaler> next preso, Steven Barth
[13:55:25] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: undefined
[13:55:29] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Changes from non-WG draft (-00)
[13:55:30] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Home
[13:55:32] <Ted Lemon> If you can find an AD to take it on.   Individual submissions are a royal PITA.
[13:55:33] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-3.pdf
[13:55:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Changes from non-WG draft (-00)
[13:55:55] <jch> Ted Lemon: ?
[13:55:57] <Ted Lemon> Even if this were work for the WG, it's not work for the WG to do before we have a homenet standard.
[13:56:04] bpenfield leaves the room
[13:56:53] <Ted Lemon> You basically have to emulate a working group with no working group.   The only reason I'd do one at this point is if it's some trivial process thing that needs to happen quickly and about which consensus can easily be established.
[13:57:16] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Refining Border Discovery (-01)
[13:57:37] Stefan Petrov leaves the room
[13:58:51] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Fine grained internal categories (-01)
[13:59:53] Mark Townsley joins the room
[14:01:01] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Compatibility with legacy routers (-01)
[14:02:05] resnick leaves the room
[14:02:36] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Reference Implementation Updates
[14:03:07] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: One More Thing
[14:03:27] <jch> Pretty.
[14:03:45] Brian Smith leaves the room
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[14:04:03] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Thank You
[14:04:07] bpenfield joins the room
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[14:04:31] <Dave Thaler> Ray Bellis
[14:04:36] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Colitti
[14:06:22] <Dave Thaler> next up: Prefix Assignment - Pierre Pfister (15m) - draft-pfister-homenet-prefix-assignment-02
[14:06:37] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-4.pdf
[14:07:01] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: undefined
[14:08:34] <jch> I'm confused.  Is he describing stuff that part of HNCP, or an independent protocol?
[14:08:42] <Dave Thaler> Slide 4: Designated router election
[14:08:51] <Simon Romano> New presentation: 05-slides-90-homenet-4.pdf
[14:08:52] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: undefined
[14:09:02] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Designated router election
[14:09:23] Brian Smith leaves the room
[14:09:35] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Designated router election
[14:09:35] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Interface Ad-Hoc mode
[14:09:49] Brian Smith joins the room
[14:10:02] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Interface Ad-Hoc mode
[14:10:38] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Downstream Prefix Delegation
[14:11:39] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Downstream Prefix Delegation
[14:12:05] <Simon Romano> Slide 9: Delegated prefix deprecation mechanism
[14:12:37] Markus Stenberg joins the room
[14:13:10] <Simon Romano> Slide 10: Prefix selection algorithm
[14:14:02] <Simon Romano> Slide 11: Prefix selection algorithm
[14:14:59] <Simon Romano> Slide 12: Prefix selection algorithm
[14:16:37] <Simon Romano> Slide 13: Thanks
[14:17:26] <Dave Thaler> Lorenzo Colitti
[14:17:32] <jch> Markus Stenberg: am I right to understand that this is part of HNCP?
[14:17:45] <Markus Stenberg> jch: yep
[14:17:55] <Markus Stenberg> or well, part of implementation (and the PA TLVs are in HNCP draft)
[14:18:08] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP 'TLV exchange protocol' itself doesn't really need this
[14:18:15] <Markus Stenberg> PA code just uses HNCP to synchronize
[14:18:38] <David Lamparter> i would actually reply with no to the question
[14:18:48] <David Lamparter> but it's only implemented over HNCP
[14:19:09] <jch> So HNCP depends on this, but this doesn't depend on HNCP?
[14:19:17] <Markus Stenberg> HNCP doesn't depend on this either
[14:19:23] <Markus Stenberg> for convenience the TLVs are in the draft
[14:19:27] <Ted Lemon> I'm getting the impression that this is a hack for supporting legacy routers.
[14:19:28] <Markus Stenberg> so on strict IETF terms it does, at it refers to this draft
[14:19:45] <Dave Thaler> Dave Taht
[14:19:47] <Markus Stenberg> downstream PD part is; however, general prefix assignment has been in homenet now what, soon 3 years
[14:20:07] <Markus Stenberg> and the downstream PD is part of it, efficient use of delegated prefix is the main point of PA
[14:20:18] <Markus Stenberg> even when doing just /64s
[14:20:26] <Markus Stenberg> hierarchical PD is harmful, especially with multiple uplinks
[14:20:36] <Ted Lemon> +1
[14:20:43] <David Lamparter> +1
[14:21:06] <Ted Lemon> There's a way to do it that would work, but it won't work for legacy routers, so no need for it given that we have HNCP.
[14:21:30] <Markus Stenberg> yeah, the spec isn't really against it
[14:21:41] <Markus Stenberg> but e.g. changes in the assigned delegated prefix etc are hard to communicate dynamically
[14:21:45] <Markus Stenberg> you wind up with reconfigure chains etc.
[14:21:50] <Dave Thaler> next up is: Front End Naming Delegation and DHC Options - Daniel Migault (15m) - draft-mglt-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-04 - draft-mglt-homenet-dnssec-validator-dhc-options-02
[14:21:59] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-5.pdf
[14:22:02] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: undefined
[14:22:08] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Scope
[14:23:08] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Scope
[14:23:29] bpenfield leaves the room
[14:27:19] <Dave Thaler> Dave Thaler
[14:27:22] <Dave Thaler> Lee Howard
[14:27:34] <jch> MIC: have you actually checked that this is implementable without binding the IHAS to the CPE?  I.e. do you have an actual implementation that runs on an independent IHAS?
[14:27:38] <Dave Thaler> mic ack
[14:28:13] <Dave Thaler> @jch, full name=?
[14:28:18] <jch> Juliusz Chroboczek
[14:28:55] <jch> (pronounced cro-bo-tcheck)
[14:29:01] <Dave Thaler> thx
[14:30:01] <Andrew Sullivan> Um, "DNS views" aren't actually specified anywhere, either
[14:30:03] <Dave Thaler> ihas=?
[14:30:15] <Dave Thaler> Evan Hunt
[14:30:23] <jch> Homenet Authoritatie Server.
[14:30:39] <Markus Stenberg> I is 'internet'
[14:30:41] <Markus Stenberg> dunno why
[14:30:41] <jch> slide 5.
[14:30:52] <Markus Stenberg> it's on the current slide
[14:30:57] <Andrew Sullivan> split-horizon DNS has always been contentious enough that nobody has specified quite how it works, which means at the very least we have a documentation problem.
[14:31:07] Rick Payne leaves the room
[14:31:12] <Andrew Sullivan> (I'm not going to the mic, in the interests of time)
[14:31:48] <Dave Thaler> David Lamparter
[14:32:40] <mcharlesr> I think that Split-Horizon DNS has become a really bad idea... (I say this as someone who sold multi-million of equipment running it back in 1994...)
[14:32:48] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-6.pdf
[14:34:52] <jch> Who's the speaker?  And could we please have him on camera?
[14:35:03] <Ted Lemon> Daniel Migault
[14:35:04] <Markus Stenberg> Daniel Migault
[14:35:08] <jch> ty
[14:35:10] <Dave Thaler> @Andrew: sort of like the problem of denial we had with NAT before Behave.
[14:35:30] <Dave Thaler> speaker is same as previous slides
[14:35:33] Ken Murchison joins the room
[14:35:59] <mcharlesr> not sure why meetecho camera now points at chairs...? (I'm observing the camera, not the output...)
[14:36:06] <Andrew Sullivan> @Dave: I'm certainly not trying to defend the view.  I'm just noting that, as a document-publication bit of bureaucracy, Evan's suggestion "use views" is not going to be too helpful.
[14:36:23] <jch> mcharlesr: that's because we have such handsome chairs ;-)
[14:36:32] <mcharlesr> Andrew, probably documenting split-horizon is a good idea.
[14:36:32] <Markus Stenberg> I think it has traditionally pointed at chairs in many other meetings
[14:36:40] <Markus Stenberg> don't know why
[14:38:08] <Simon Romano> Meetecho camera points at chairs because the presenter keeps on walking back and forth...
[14:38:20] <Simon Romano> ...and puts himself in front of the screen.
[14:38:37] <Dave Thaler> Peter Koch
[14:38:37] <Simon Romano> I'm sick of trying to follow him; he drives me crazy :-)
[14:38:56] <mcharlesr> Thanks Simon for attempting :-)
[14:39:15] <Simon Romano> Here he is.
[14:39:22] <Simon Romano> Hope he stops for a while :-)
[14:39:40] <Andrew Sullivan> @mcharlesr: I'm delighted to hear your spirit of voluntarism ;-)
[14:39:50] <Simon Romano> You bet!
[14:39:56] <Simon Romano> Even on Friday...
[14:40:43] <Dave Thaler> Bernie Volz
[14:40:44] <mcharlesr> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-homenet-secret-gardens/ <- would have liked to link to split-DNS document, so it explains it a bit, so maybe there is some text that could be pulled out.
[14:42:35] William Lupton_2 joins the room
[14:42:50] <Dave Thaler> Markus Stenberg
[14:43:37] Markus Stenberg leaves the room
[14:43:45] <Dave Thaler> next preso: DNS SD Hybrid Proxy - Markus Stenberg (10m) - draft-stenberg-homenet-dnssd-hybrid-proxy-zeroconf-01
[14:44:00] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-7.pdf
[14:45:44] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: undefined
[14:46:03] <Simon Romano> Wow...Markus is my ideal speaker!
[14:46:18] <Dave Thaler> :)
[14:46:28] <Simon Romano> He stands in front of the webcam and does not wander around.
[14:47:04] <Simon Romano> He'll certainly be glad when he watches recordings ;-)
[14:47:36] <jch> Heh.  When you start lecturing, it takes a few months to learn that students hate it when you wander around the lecture theatre.
[14:47:53] <Andrew Sullivan> [ot, meetecho] maybe WG session rooms need an x on the floor to anchor the speakers
[14:47:58] William Lupton_2 leaves the room
[14:48:06] <Simon Romano> True.
[14:48:15] <Andrew Sullivan> "hit your mark, performers!"
[14:49:06] <Simon Romano> @Andrew: I just proposed what you say at today's breakfast session, indeed.
[14:50:05] William Lupton_2 joins the room
[14:50:17] Mark Townsley leaves the room
[14:50:17] Mark Townsley joins the room
[14:50:17] Mark Townsley leaves the room
[14:51:01] Mark Townsley joins the room
[14:51:01] <Dave Thaler> Mikael Abrahamsson
[14:51:23] William Lupton_2 leaves the room
[14:52:00] <Andrew Sullivan> I like the idea of a Thaler Doctrine!
[14:52:15] <Dave Thaler> (no objections here ;)
[14:52:28] <Dave Thaler> Dave Taht
[14:53:04] <mcharlesr> written down, Thaler and Thrawn look similar. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Admiral_Thrawn_(article)
[14:53:24] <Dave Thaler> Dave Thaler
[14:53:34] Abhay Roy joins the room
[14:54:40] <Dave Thaler> Tim Chown
[14:55:42] <jch> Dave Thaler: I cannot find any PCP drafts on tools.ietf.  What do you recommend I read to learn about the WG's work?
[14:56:00] <Dave Thaler> PCP interim is being scheduled via WebEx for August 26th 7AM Pacific / 10AM Eastern.  Will send connection details to the homenet list too when we send them out
[14:56:14] <jch> Er, sorry.  There's draft-ietf-pcp-base and friends.
[14:56:21] <Dave Thaler> @jch: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/pcp/
[14:56:42] <jch> ty
[14:56:49] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Presentation Outline
[14:57:01] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Threats and Assumptions
[14:57:02] <Dave Thaler> now up: HNCP Security - Pierre Pfister (15m) - draft-bonnetain-hncp-security-00
[14:57:12] <Dave Thaler> slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-homenet-8.pdf
[14:57:53] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Threats and Assumptions
[14:58:42] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Authentication Mechanism
[14:59:07] <Dave Thaler> btw, above slide numbers are off by 1 from what's labeled on the slide, since title slide is slide #0
[14:59:19] Markus Stenberg joins the room
[14:59:20] Markus Stenberg leaves the room
[14:59:25] Markus Stenberg joins the room
[14:59:44] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Authorization Mechanism
[14:59:50] Dan York leaves the room
[14:59:57] <Simon Romano> Slide numbers are automatically generated by the scraper...
[15:00:12] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Authorization Mechanism
[15:00:14] <Dave Thaler> I know, just pointing out to anyone remote to not be confused :)
[15:00:15] <Simon Romano> Let's say this is the sixth slide in the deck
[15:00:31] <Simon Romano> I can disable the function, if you think it's better.
[15:00:35] <Dave Thaler> no it's fine
[15:01:08] Ken Murchison leaves the room
[15:01:19] <Simon Romano> Slide 8: Authorization Mechanism
[15:02:26] <Simon Romano> Slide 9: Shared Secret Establishment
[15:02:53] Wolfgang Beck leaves the room
[15:03:23] <Simon Romano> Slide 10: Pros and cons
[15:04:21] <jch> Big win if they can get it to work reliably.  (I think it was Ted who pointed that out on the ML.)
[15:04:44] <Simon Romano> Slide 11: Other possibilities
[15:05:48] ed lewis leaves the room
[15:05:55] <Simon Romano> Slide 12: Discuss !
[15:05:57] <Dave Thaler> Mikael Abrahamsson
[15:06:39] <Dave Thaler> David Lamparter
[15:06:49] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Authorization Mechanism
[15:07:55] Markus Stenberg leaves the room
[15:08:04] <Dave Thaler> Michael Richardson
[15:08:08] <jch> Yeah, that confused me too.
[15:08:14] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Threats and Assumptions
[15:08:20] <Mark Townsley> Comment from the notetaker: MANET is working on exactly this sort of problem.
[15:08:49] Markus Stenberg joins the room
[15:09:58] Brian Carpenter leaves the room: offline
[15:10:24] <Dave Thaler> Dave Taht
[15:10:55] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Threats and Assumptions
[15:11:15] <Mark Townsley> thc - isn't that mostly legal where Dave lives now?
[15:11:31] <jch> MIC (if you think useful): it's symmetric.
[15:11:32] <Dave Thaler> Erik Kline
[15:12:21] <Dave Thaler> since we're short on time, and there's a mic line, I'll give a mic nack for now since "if you think it's useful" sounded like it could wait
[15:12:30] <jch> Sure.
[15:13:05] each leaves the room
[15:13:26] <Simon Romano> Slide 10: Pros and cons
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[15:13:55] <Dave Thaler> Hannes Tschofenig
[15:14:43] <Simon Romano> Slide 7: Authorization Mechanism
[15:15:25] <Dave Thaler> David Lamparter
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[15:16:10] <Dave Thaler> (Mark Townsley speaking as chair)
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[15:16:43] <Dave Thaler> <end of meeting>
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[15:16:47] <Simon Romano> See you guys!
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[15:17:01] <Simon Romano> Closing Meetecho session in a minute...
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[15:17:20] <jch> Thanks for the hard work (camera, notetaking, MICs, etc.)
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