IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, November 7, 2013< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
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[16:58:40] <Ralf Weber> Moin! No audio yet
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[17:02:38] <mcharlesr> I am scribe1.
[17:03:35] <mcharlesr> please mic: if you want it relayed.
[17:03:41] <mcharlesr> er, jabber scribe.
[17:03:54] Barbara joins the room
[17:04:11] <mcharlesr> anyone remote?
[17:04:17] <mcharlesr> you all look local.
[17:04:17] <Barbara> yes
[17:04:24] <mcharlesr> how is the mic volume?
[17:04:37] <Barbara> very low
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[17:04:49] <Mark Townsley> Andrew Y is the jabber scribe
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[17:05:01] <Andrew Yourtchenko> agenda slide
[17:05:22] <mcharlesr> I will be the backup jabber scribe, since I have to go at 10:30.
[17:05:28] <Barbara> Can the mic volume be increased?
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[17:05:56] <Ted Lemon> This has been a perennial problem, unfortunately.
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[17:06:06] <Mikael Abrahamsson> the volume is quite high here in the room, so it might be the device recording it that makes it too low then?
[17:06:14] <Ted Lemon> Apparently if they turn it up much more it clips.
[17:06:25] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Tim Chown presenting
[17:06:32] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "progress since Berlin"
[17:06:48] <Andrew Yourtchenko> [draft-ietf-homenet-arch-11 sildes]
[17:07:31] Ole Troan joins the room
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[17:08:23] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Changes post IESG review"
[17:08:44] Barry Leiba joins the room
[17:09:25] <mcharlesr> email mtd@ for mic issues, not tickets@meeting, I think.
[17:10:10] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "The open source text"
[17:11:38] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Peter Lothberg at the mic
[17:12:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Lee Howard at the mic
[17:13:09] Atarashi Yoshifumi joins the room
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[17:13:41] Brian Carpenter joins the room
[17:13:41] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Crocker at the mic
[17:14:11] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt
[17:14:15] <Andrew Yourtchenko> at the mic
[17:14:37] resnick joins the room
[17:14:52] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Lee Howard at the mic
[17:15:10] <resnick> This is going to rathole. This is *not* the reason this text was put in. At least, that's not what we were told in the IESG.
[17:15:15] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Peter Lothberg
[17:15:26] <Brian Carpenter> Why are we wasting valuable time on this trivial point?
[17:15:44] <Ole Troan> +1. move on.
[17:15:49] <resnick> We were told this was about the particular ability to run particular kinds of devices that run particular pieces of software.
[17:15:55] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Barry Leiba
[17:16:19] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ted Lemon at the mic
[17:16:43] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler\
[17:17:29] <mcharlesr> resnick: 95% of the devices out there are running modified *WRT stack.  Those vendors have no R&D department.  If the code isn't free, it won't get deployed.
[17:17:38] <mcharlesr> That's why the WG said this.
[17:17:47] <resnick> Right. So all this talk is not on point.
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[17:18:53] <Lee Howard> "I'm not sure I'm all that upset about lightweight" was James Woodyatt
[17:19:03] <Lee Howard> but I didn't hear the name of the following commenter
[17:19:06] <resnick> That was Charlie Perkins, BTW.
[17:19:08] <mcharlesr> Charlie
[17:19:14] <Andrew Yourtchenko> thanks, did not catch the name
[17:19:22] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "the appsdir review"
[17:20:01] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Open issues {1}"
[17:20:28] KK Chittimaneni leaves the room
[17:21:07] <Mark Townsley> Nice to see you hear on the front row, Ole Troan. You're looking a little "flat" this morning though.
[17:21:14] <mcharlesr> getting *INFO* about the homenet is an standard way would help when neighbour's teenager comes over to sort something out.
[17:21:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Open issues {2}"
[17:22:03] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Fred Baker at the mic
[17:22:25] <Ole Troan> MT: I'll ask Andrew to bring a fish bowl to carry me around in for next IETF. ;-)
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[17:23:55] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Richardson at the mic
[17:24:22] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Tina Tsou at the mic
[17:24:40] <Ole Troan> It certainly is going to 5. 3 is something else.
[17:25:14] <Ted Lemon> Actually 3 seems like a very good fit.   Why do you thinkgive is better.
[17:25:44] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ted Lemon at the mic
[17:26:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> clarifying question from [ … ] (did not catch the name
[17:26:33] <Ole Troan> The homenet consist of multiple routers.
[17:26:33] <resnick> There is (unfortunately) a BCP defining OAM.
[17:26:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
[17:26:55] <Ole Troan> Just like the homenet borders is a ULA boundary
[17:27:02] <Ole Troan> it is also a multicast scope boundary
[17:27:12] <Ted Lemon> Yes.
[17:27:16] <resnick> http://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp161
[17:27:20] <Ted Lemon> But why is 3 the wrong scope?
[17:27:20] <Ole Troan> 2 is for a single link
[17:27:22] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Lee Howard at the mic
[17:27:29] <resnick> It is "Operations, Administration, and Maintenance"
[17:27:33] <Ole Troan> 3 is for something akin to a multilink subnet (single /64)
[17:27:41] <Ted Lemon> 3 is undefined.
[17:27:43] <Ole Troan> A homenet isn't that. It is multiple routers, multiple links
[17:27:46] <resnick> If you're using a different definition, you're violating a (stupid, IMO) BCP.
[17:28:12] <Ole Troan> What purpose does using 3 serve? While a "site scope" fits perfectly fine?
[17:28:22] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Richardson at the mic
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[17:28:54] <Ole Troan> The homenet does administratively configure boundaries automatically.
[17:29:08] <Ole Troan> Don't confuse that with the automatically bounded scope zones.
[17:29:09] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[17:29:27] <Ted Lemon> You should fight that out with Brian.   Contrary to what Tim said, it was Brian who raised this concern.
[17:29:52] <Ole Troan> Brian C? or H?
[17:29:56] <Mark Townsley> Yes, it was Brian - Brian has said to me in the Hallway "just use 3 and we are OK"
[17:30:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Carry at the mic
[17:30:14] <Andrew Yourtchenko> (sp.)
[17:30:30] Barry Leiba joins the room
[17:30:35] <Mark Townsley> H
[17:30:46] <mcharlesr> Ole, I don't understand "confuse that with the automatically bounded scope"
[17:31:09] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ralph Droms at the mic
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[17:31:55] <Ole Troan> link-local is an automatically bounded scope.
[17:32:01] <Ole Troan> While organisational-scoped isn't.
[17:32:02] <mcharlesr> scope 2 is obvious.
[17:32:25] <Ole Troan> But org-scoped is perfectly fine for the home network.
[17:32:32] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mark Townsley speaking
[17:32:34] <Ole Troan> Just like it is for Cisco's Enterprise network.
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[17:33:00] <Ole Troan> The homenet has just replaced the administrator with a "robot".
[17:33:00] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Kerry at the mic
[17:33:16] <Ole Troan> Triggered by border configuration.
[17:33:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ted Lemon
[17:33:32] <mcharlesr> Ole... yes.
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[17:33:44] <mcharlesr> robots.
[17:33:59] <mcharlesr> scope <3 is obvious to an outsider who can't see in the box.
[17:34:11] <mcharlesr> er, scope <= 3 is that is.
[17:34:20] <mcharlesr> <3 is a heart on my IM client.
[17:34:26] <Ole Troan> Very cute indeed.
[17:34:33] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Incremental deployment?"
[17:34:35] Ralf Weber leaves the room
[17:34:59] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Next steps?"
[17:35:44] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Fred Baker presenting "Source/Destination routing"
[17:35:48] <Olafur Gudmundsson> OT: Anyone else in Regency D having problems getting v4 addresses ?
[17:36:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Olafur: I saw at least a couple of people
[17:36:16] <Ole Troan> With regards to multicast scope I thought we had that discussion in RFC6204, stating that it was org-local, at least I remember to have that discussion with the multicast people. Cannot find text now though.
[17:36:17] <Olafur Gudmundsson> I just sent an email to NoC
[17:36:18] <Andrew Yourtchenko> I think we finally ran out of IPv4 addresses.
[17:36:31] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Problem History"
[17:36:42] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "RFC3704"
[17:37:20] Franck Martin joins the room
[17:37:46] David Lamparter joins the room
[17:37:52] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Homenet's first concern"
[17:38:01] <Franck Martin> is there a jabber room for ietf noc?
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[17:38:20] <SM> Probably
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[17:38:40] <Andrew Yourtchenko> there are some people in "noc" jabber room
[17:38:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "But residential routers usually have one upstream"
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[17:39:54] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Multi-LAN case"
[17:39:54] SM leaves the room
[17:40:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "NTT B-FLETS Case"
[17:41:29] William Lupton leaves the room
[17:41:46] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Generalizing"
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[17:44:46] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler at the mic
[17:45:04] Brian Haberman joins the room
[17:45:42] <Brian Haberman> @dan: Is the WG past the discussion of the homenet arch issues?
[17:46:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
[17:46:37] <Ted Lemon> yes
[17:46:45] <Ole Troan> BH: Now on SADR
[17:47:03] <Brian Haberman> Thanks… stuck talking address allocation in LISP.
[17:47:51] SM joins the room
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[17:48:27] <Ted Lemon> Hi, Ralf!
[17:48:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mark Townsley talking
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[17:49:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> [..] at the mic
[17:50:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Richardson
[17:50:39] <Andrew Yourtchenko> at the mic
[17:51:04] Franck Martin leaves the room
[17:51:27] Brian Haberman leaves the room
[17:52:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Markus Steinberg at the mic
[17:53:39] <Andrew Yourtchenko> […] at the mic
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[17:53:45] <Ole Troan> see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-multihoming-without-ipv6nat-05 for the NTT flets use case
[17:54:28] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Don St… at the mic
[17:54:34] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler at the mic
[17:55:00] <Ted Lemon> Don Sturek, I think.
[17:56:24] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Peter Lothberg at the mic
[17:57:09] Dave Thaler joins the room
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[17:58:36] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Shu Yang presenting draft-xu-homenet-traffic-class-00
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[17:58:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Home Network Configuration"
[17:58:55] <Lee Howard> We're going to need two sessions at the next IETF
[17:59:02] <Dave Thaler> no slide numbers...
[17:59:16] <Ole Troan> "Home IT Staff" is a bit of an oxymoron. ;-)
[17:59:19] <Mikael Abrahamsson> yes, I agree, we need a lot more time. v6ops has two full sessions, homenet needs the same.
[17:59:27] <Ole Troan> (although I've got a CCIE at home. ;-))
[17:59:33] <Andrew Yourtchenko> @Dave: I am doing content-based slide numbering
[17:59:40] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Multihoming in Home Networks"
[17:59:46] <Markus Stenberg> Ole Troan: and she cooks too! brilliant ;)
[17:59:49] <Ted Lemon> We shouldn't have stuff on the agenda that's not been discussed on the mailing list.
[17:59:56] <Ted Lemon> That said, if you need more time, I will support that.
[18:00:05] <Ole Troan> but she refuses to do anything with the network.
[18:00:10] <Ted Lemon> But please do push back on stuff that doesn't need to go on the agenda.
[18:00:25] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Ingress Filtering on Upstream"
[18:00:39] <Ole Troan> is this the _same_ as the previous presentation?
[18:00:45] <Ole Troan> with the added policy of traffic class?
[18:00:52] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Traffic Class Routing"
[18:00:59] <Dave Thaler> looks like it to me
[18:01:27] resnick leaves the room
[18:01:35] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Router Behavior"
[18:01:46] <Ted Lemon> (I feel only slightly guilty about saying that on the jabber—I think the working group should work with the chairs to achieve effective meetings.)
[18:02:14] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "TC-LSA Format"
[18:02:32] <Ole Troan> I was going to ask someone to ask on the mic what the use case / deployment scenario was, but given Ted's point, perhaps not.
[18:02:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Routing Table Calculation"
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[18:03:52] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "overall implementation"
[18:04:12] <Dave Thaler> Was there any justification presented on why to use the traffic class specifically?
[18:04:27] <Markus Stenberg> it's just a way of representing src+dst
[18:04:29] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Forwarding Table - simple solution"
[18:04:37] <Ole Troan> oh, so it isn't QOS based routing?
[18:04:44] <Mikael Abrahamsson> but why do we need both routes and traffic class?
[18:04:44] <Markus Stenberg> no
[18:04:51] <Markus Stenberg> they call it traffic class, just reuse of term
[18:04:51] <Mikael Abrahamsson> route seems to be TC + cost ?
[18:04:54] <Markus Stenberg> it's just src+dst route
[18:04:56] <Dave Thaler> map source prefix to a TC so it's dest+TC rather than dest+src?
[18:04:57] <Markus Stenberg> with a cost
[18:05:05] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Data structure"
[18:05:06] <Markus Stenberg> that then maps to a dst route
[18:05:14] <Markus Stenberg> to be directly forwarded on
[18:05:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Forwarding table - patricia trie based"
[18:05:29] <Lee Howard> This is overloading of term "traffic class."  Forget that and look at what's proposed
[18:05:29] <Markus Stenberg> idea's fairly simple, I do same, except I don't even publish src+dst stuff, just use the Arkko usable prefixes as info
[18:05:33] <Ole Troan> so this has nothing to do with the traffic class field in the IPv6 header?
[18:05:41] <Markus Stenberg> yes, nothing
[18:05:43] <Markus Stenberg> just term reuse
[18:05:51] <Markus Stenberg> sadly enough :p
[18:05:56] <Ole Troan> ah, that accounts for the confusion.
[18:05:58] <Markus Stenberg> just like hipnet has nothing to do with hip RFC
[18:05:59] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "implementation in click router"
[18:06:10] <Markus Stenberg> 'thanks for playing, gg reading IETF historic stuff' :p
[18:06:21] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "conclusion"
[18:06:22] <Markus Stenberg> Dave Tath was keen about hipnet until he learned it had nothing to do with hip
[18:06:48] <Ted Lemon> :)
[18:06:50] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ron (?)… at the mic
[18:07:06] <Mark Townsley> Rowan Mahy
[18:07:06] <Barry Leiba> Rohan Mahy
[18:07:07] <Lee Howard> I was excited about martini until I learned it had nothing to do with gin.
[18:07:15] <Ole Troan> or PCP
[18:07:19] mcharlesr has gin-mode.el
[18:07:28] <Ted Lemon> I was excited about LISP until I realized that there would be no s-exprs.
[18:07:35] <Mark Townsley> yes, rowan/rohan
[18:07:54] <Ole Troan> Ted: make a t-shirt please! ;-)
[18:08:00] <Ted Lemon> Ha!
[18:08:12] <mcharlesr> would the T-shirt have s-expr on it?
[18:08:27] <Ted Lemon> I want a T-shirt of the xkcd comic.
[18:08:41] <Andrew Yourtchenko> AC (sp?) at the mic.
[18:08:46] <Lee Howard> Acee Lindem
[18:08:47] <Markus Stenberg> Acee Linden
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[18:09:11] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Fred Baker at the mic
[18:09:16] <Ted Lemon> http://xkcd.com/297/
[18:09:33] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt
[18:09:51] <Ole Troan> my first guess was that you meant http://xkcd.com/927/
[18:10:06] <Andrew Yourtchenko> ^^ This needs to be on the next IETF's t-shirt
[18:10:10] <Ted Lemon> Indeed.
[18:10:31] <Andrew Yourtchenko> IPv6 Home net naming services presentation
[18:10:42] <Lee Howard> can you hear remotely?
[18:10:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> [ re. t-shirt: and something about consensus ]
[18:10:52] <Ralf Weber> barely
[18:10:56] <SM> No
[18:11:03] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[18:11:32] <Lee Howard> better?
[18:11:41] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Problem statement"
[18:11:43] <SM> Yes, thanks, Lee
[18:12:03] Barry Leiba joins the room
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[18:13:26] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Public Authoritative Server"
[18:13:45] <Ole Troan> I run this at home now, but without DNSSEC unfortunately.
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[18:14:09] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Change Log"
[18:14:17] <Markus Stenberg> I don't see the point of dnssec, it has trust hierarchy that has lots of dodgy CAs in it most likely in any case
[18:14:23] <Ole Troan> didn't Mark Andrews have a mechanism to update the NS glue records, so that the shadow master can change IP address?
[18:14:28] <Markus Stenberg> so I want app level security in any case
[18:14:52] <Ole Troan> we need some automated way to deal with the shadow DNS server registering.
[18:15:00] <Ted Lemon> It would be difficult to do a pervasive DNSSEC attack without it being detected.
[18:15:18] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Bob Hinden at the mic
[18:15:21] <Ted Lemon> It is vulnerable to targeted attacks if someone has the root key.
[18:15:25] <Markus Stenberg> yes, but I'm also concerned about targeted ones
[18:15:33] <Ole Troan> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-dnsop-pd-reverse-02
[18:15:35] <Ole Troan> is Mark's draft.
[18:15:37] <Markus Stenberg> pervasive ones are unlikely to target my home services
[18:15:40] <Ted Lemon> Right, so we shouldn't do anything about the other issue.
[18:15:42] <Ole Troan> Ted also has one solving the same problem
[18:15:42] <Markus Stenberg> but someone might target it
[18:15:43] <Ted Lemon> That makes perfect sense.
[18:15:48] <Lee Howard> Bon Hinden at mic
[18:15:53] <Markus Stenberg> in homenet case, I don't see dnssec value, that's all
[18:15:54] <Ole Troan> but I wonder if Mark's method can't also be used for the forward zone.
[18:16:08] <Ted Lemon> Pervasive suborning of the DNS is a pretty big deal.
[18:16:14] <SM> You mean update?
[18:16:35] <Ted Lemon> That is to say, being protected from targeted attacks on DNS by non-government entities is worthwhile.
[18:16:46] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
[18:17:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Lee Howard at the mic
[18:17:06] <tonyhain> "by definition -advanced- is bogus"
[18:17:09] <Ole Troan> I'm perfectly fine with my ISP(s) running secondary DNS servers
[18:17:16] <Ole Troan> for either my domain, or one they give me.
[18:17:28] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Tim Chown at the mic
[18:17:50] <Ralf Weber> mic:The ISP can give a domain per subscriber in services setup
[18:17:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
[18:18:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> [.. ] at the mic
[18:18:15] <Ole Troan> Ralf: That makes changing ISPs painful, but it is certainly better than no name
[18:18:37] <Markus Stenberg> I'd rather not have my home infra names tied to ISP, especially as I have two upstream ones..
[18:18:48] <Markus Stenberg> but for typical home I suppose ISP-provided ones would be fine
[18:18:55] <Ted Lemon> I think if this becomes popular we'll see service providers show up who provide this as a non-ISP service.
[18:18:55] <Ralf Weber> Well the draft doen't specifiy that as there are multiple ways to achieve it
[18:18:55] <Andrew Yourtchenko> s/../Evan/
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[18:18:58] jabber-relay-ay is now known as Andrew Yourtchenko
[18:18:59] <Lee Howard> right.  can be user-specified or automated through ISP.  
[18:19:13] <Andrew Yourtchenko> John (?) .. at the mic
[18:19:24] <Lee Howard> John Levine
[18:19:40] <Lee Howard> don't know who this is, though
[18:19:44] <Andrew Yourtchenko> .. at the mic.
[18:19:45] <Dave Thaler> Olafur
[18:20:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic.
[18:20:06] <Dave Thaler> Gudmunson (sp?).   He was chair of dnsext
[18:20:15] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Thanks Dave!
[18:20:16] mcharlesr leaves the room
[18:20:45] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson
[18:21:06] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Richardson at the mic
[18:21:18] <Dave Thaler> (for minutes, correct spelling is Gudmundsson)
[18:21:54] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic
[18:22:23] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Beringer at the mic
[18:22:41] <Ole Troan> James has a point, which I thought we had all agreed on earlier. any service must be manually configured to publish anything with DNS-SD in an external zone
[18:22:42] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler at the mic
[18:22:57] <Ted Lemon> I wonder how long we can continue agreeing violently before we move on. :)
[18:23:21] <Ole Troan> before violence breaks out you mean? ;-)
[18:23:35] <Ted Lemon> Well, I'm hoping that we will just move on.
[18:23:44] <Ted Lemon> We have a lot of work to do still.
[18:24:00] <Mikael Abrahamsson> yes, policy and security is going to need a lot more work here.
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[18:24:25] <Mikael Abrahamsson> ... for all work being done in this working group
[18:24:26] <Andrew Yourtchenko> presentation draft-mglt-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-00
[18:25:24] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "table of contents"
[18:25:53] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Architecture Description"
[18:26:23] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #5 "Setting the DNS Homenet Zone"
[18:26:38] <Markus Stenberg> Wonder if I should skip my presentation; it's going to wind up with conclusion that M. Behringer stuff is the way to go anyway, and he's presenting it right before..
[18:26:51] <Markus Stenberg> (and then some hnet advertising, but as we're short on time..)
[18:27:03] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #6 "ZONE_PUBLIC_MASTER: Factorized"
[18:27:12] <Lee Howard> Markus, that would be quite noble of you
[18:27:26] Suzanne Woolf joins the room
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[18:29:11] <Ole Troan> So all of this would require that your secondaries must be run by any or all of your ISP
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[18:29:11] <Ole Troan> and tied with the 'normal' provisioning
[18:29:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #7: "ZONE_PUBLIC_MASTER: Expanded"
[18:29:41] <Peter Koch> somebody tell me i grossly misunderstand that the draft establishes DHCP as a zone provisioning protocol
[18:29:55] <Ted Lemon> Ole, it looks like you can push IP addresses of your own secondaries upstream.
[18:30:03] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #8
[18:30:12] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "ZONE_PUBLIC_MASTER: Example"
[18:30:27] <Suzanne Woolf> I'm more concerned that the questions/comments on the previous draft suggest people are going to want to define not two but three DNS namespaces for a homenet: local, public/global, and "arbitrary"
[18:30:40] <Ted Lemon> What's arbitrary?
[18:30:49] jeferson.nobre leaves the room
[18:31:44] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #9
[18:31:49] <Suzanne Woolf> I'm trying to think through the comment on "I don't want public, I want something in the cloud that's visible to me and others I might choose". Which I may have misunderstood (I'm sitting in the back) but once I've imagined it I realize I won;t be surprised when someone else does.
[18:32:04] <Ted Lemon> Ah.
[18:32:05] <Ole Troan> services available to your "friends"?
[18:32:09] <Ted Lemon> Yeah, I don't think DNS can do that.
[18:32:29] <Ralf Weber> Yeah this draft talks about global - dns-sd does local and the pollicy what goes where is for another draft
[18:32:30] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Bernie Volz at the mic
[18:32:49] <Suzanne Woolf> I don't think it can either, unless you're willing to play some extremely strange games— I haven't looked closely at the boundary stuff lately. All I meant was that people will *want* to :)
[18:32:57] <Ted Lemon> Ralf, dns-sd doesn't currently support multi-subnet naming, so we still need a home zone that's not externally visible.
[18:33:19] <Ted Lemon> Or else a magic new dns-sd… :)
[18:33:24] <Lee Howard> sounds like you need an Auth DNS, where "auth" means "authenticated/authorized"
[18:33:37] <Ole Troan> well, we've got unicast DNS-SD which does it just fine
[18:33:38] <Suzanne Woolf> I don't even assume the users will want it, DNS is so last century! but I can easily imagine providers wanting to use it that way
[18:33:40] <Ted Lemon> I think "need" is the wrong word.
[18:33:46] <Suzanne Woolf> Ted: +1
[18:33:52] <Lee Howard> James Woodyatt
[18:33:54] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic
[18:33:58] <Ole Troan> or hybrid mdns / DNS-SD
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[18:34:12] <Lee Howard> need to improve discipline in self-ID'ing at mic
[18:34:44] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #11
[18:35:05] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "OPTION_PUBLIC_MASTER_UPLOAD"
[18:35:14] Victor Kuarsingh joins the room
[18:35:15] <Ole Troan> hey, this is going to blow the DHCPv6 option code space
[18:35:16] <Ted Lemon> Ole, I have never seen any multicast dns-sd that works across multiple subnets.
[18:35:28] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Evan at the mic
[18:35:41] resnick joins the room
[18:35:47] <Ole Troan> Stuart's hybrid mDNS stuff that I think he presented last time, Markus has a prototype of
[18:35:47] <Ted Lemon> Sorry, unicast
[18:35:56] <Olafur Gudmundsson> All he needs is a template zone that gets populated with content i.e. takes the NS set provided
[18:35:57] <Ted Lemon> Yeah, AFAIK that completely fails.
[18:36:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> [ quick transition through the remaining slides. presentation finished ]
[18:36:06] <Ted Lemon> Also, it's patented out the wazoo.
[18:36:14] <Andrew Yourtchenko> draft-cap-homenet-mif-srvdis-00 presentation
[18:36:22] <Andrew Yourtchenko> s/cap/cao/
[18:36:23] <Ole Troan> unicast DNS-SD is where I think we need to go, but we need to find a way to make it deployable.
[18:36:27] <Ralf Weber> The draft says that the homenet server only accepts connections from the public authoriative masters - thus the IPs must be send to the hg
[18:36:33] <Ole Troan> Ted: true.
[18:36:40] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Background"
[18:36:48] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Multihoming service discovery"
[18:37:16] <Ted Lemon> I think you should just use DNS to host the zone, and use a cache coherency protocol to manage it.
[18:37:56] <Ole Troan> Ted: please write it up
[18:37:59] <Ralf Weber> Ted: What is this?
[18:38:25] <Ted Lemon> Ralph was talking about it back in Orlando—I assume he has a document up his sleeve.   :)
[18:38:26] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Service Instance Access Issues"
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[18:38:48] <Ole Troan> mumble, I'm still carrying a grudge against the IETF for not having solved service discovery before I was out of diapers.
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[18:39:13] <Lee Howard> did you need a diaper service discvoery?
[18:39:28] <Ole Troan> yes, in a week or so.
[18:39:30] <Andrew Yourtchenko> @Ole: back then the home networks did have administrators, so no need to do discovery - they knew it :)
[18:39:36] <Markus Stenberg> you need diaper replacement service
[18:39:39] <Markus Stenberg> I'd imagine
[18:39:50] <Ole Troan> ;-)
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[18:40:21] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Matter of fact", "Next Steps"
[18:41:02] <Andrew Yourtchenko> … at the mic talking about the dnssd wg
[18:41:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Tim Chown at the mic
[18:42:04] <Andrew Yourtchenko> draft-andrews-dnsop-pd-reverse presentation
[18:42:55] <Ted Lemon> Ole, don't you remember SLP?
[18:43:07] <Andrew Yourtchenko> (presented by Evan Hunt)
[18:43:32] KK Chittimaneni joins the room
[18:43:32] <Ole Troan> I do, I should correct myself, to a successful one.
[18:44:03] <Ralf Weber> mic: The reverse zone is just another domain name between the home gateway and the public authoritative server
[18:44:07] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ted Lemon at the mic
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[18:44:58] <Ole Troan> right, but it is inherently tied to the ISP, and you get told about it via IA_NA
[18:44:58] <Ole Troan> IA_PD. sorry.
[18:44:58] Doug Montgomery joins the room
[18:44:58] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dan York at the mic
[18:45:17] <Ralf Weber> Yeah the dhcp is different, but the dns work is the same
[18:45:36] <Ole Troan> agree
[18:46:00] <Ralf Weber> I'm a DNS guy. I have Ted for dhcp stuff ;-)
[18:46:13] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic
[18:46:17] <Dave Thaler> who's relaying for Ralf?
[18:47:08] <Dave Thaler> (andrew getting up to relay now)
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[18:48:18] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Daniel at the mic
[18:48:37] <Dave Thaler> "Ralf Weber" c/o Andrew Yourtchenko at the nic :)
[18:48:39] <Dave Thaler> mic
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[18:49:29] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Behringer presenting draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap-01
[18:49:56] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Overview" (#2)
[18:50:28] Suzanne Woolf leaves the room
[18:50:35] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #3
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[18:50:50] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "Approach: 1) Defining a Trust Anchor"
[18:51:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #4
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[18:51:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "Approach: 2) Neighbor Discovery"
[18:52:06] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #5
[18:52:13] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "Approach: 3) Domain Join"
[18:52:28] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #6
[18:52:46] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "Approach: 3a) Validation using Vendor Cert"
[18:52:58] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide #7
[18:53:00] <Andrew Yourtchenko> "Result"
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[18:53:47] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
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[18:54:27] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ian Farrer at the mic
[18:55:00] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Eric Vyncke at the mic
[18:55:12] <Ole Troan> could someone summarise Ian's comment? hard to hear remotely
[18:55:26] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ole: there is cost associated with SMS etc
[18:55:30] <Ted Lemon> He's concerned with attacks where the attacker gets the mobile phone user to spend money.
[18:55:36] <Ole Troan> ah, thanks
[18:55:45] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Markus presenting Border discovery and hnet status report
[18:55:49] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Agenda"
[18:56:07] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00"
[18:57:18] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Alternative modes of border discovery"
[18:58:48] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "hnet?"
[18:59:01] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "hnet timeline"
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[18:59:31] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "hnet versions"
[18:59:51] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide with previous bitsnbytes picture
[18:59:58] <Andrew Yourtchenko> … at the mic
[19:01:18] Markus Stenberg joins the room
[19:01:41] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Timothy Winters presenting "homenet design team"
[19:02:08] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "proposed next steps for design team"
[19:02:21] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "6204bis"
[19:02:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "6204 to homenet"
[19:03:00] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "homenet to 6204bis"
[19:03:41] <Ole Troan> this has at least some of the multilayer NAT problems
[19:03:52] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "SPER to homenet"
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[19:05:09] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mark Townsley commenting
[19:05:28] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Multi-layer SPER"
[19:05:28] <Ole Troan> this would require "mixed" mode interfaces, or per neighbor policy instead of external / internal interfaces with border discovery
[19:06:07] <Andrew Yourtchenko> .. at the mic
[19:06:18] <Barry Leiba> Rohan Mahy
[19:06:37] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Border Discovery Problems"
[19:07:06] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Homenet WAN to SPER LAN"
[19:07:07] pebersman joins the room
[19:07:23] <Ole Troan> mixed mode interfaces make my head hurt
[19:08:03] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "Homenet detects SPER"
[19:08:38] Dan York leaves the room
[19:08:40] <Ole Troan> that's nice. the "trust me" bit is set, so I'll disable the firewall. ;-)
[19:09:02] <Ted Lemon> That's okay if we don't expect the ISP and the attacker to be the same entity.
[19:09:07] <Andrew Yourtchenko> … at the mic
[19:09:09] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Kerry
[19:09:18] <Ole Troan> or the attacker get access to that shared link
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[19:09:25] <Ted Lemon> Right.
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[19:09:42] <Mark Townsley> The fundamental problem here is that the LAN of the SPER is, by definition, exactly like the WAN of the ISP.
[19:09:48] <Markus Stenberg> I'm much more leery of cables going out from my home 'somewhere' than cables within my home.
[19:09:50] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler at the mic
[19:09:54] <Mark Townsley> So, discovering between the two is, hard.
[19:10:02] <Ted Lemon> Of course, another really good argument here is simply that these devices should not just sit there running ancient firmware for all time, so we shouldn't have SPERs once we have Homenet routers.
[19:10:11] <Ole Troan> true
[19:10:14] <Markus Stenberg> that's the optimistic version
[19:10:32] <Markus Stenberg> but Teco had a good point - SPER stuff isn't in arch draft, we could pretend it doesn't exist
[19:10:42] <Andrew Yourtchenko> slide "SPER to homenet" shown ATM.
[19:10:46] <Markus Stenberg> would be very IETF thing to do
[19:10:51] <Markus Stenberg> 'what NAT?'
[19:11:31] <Ted Lemon> AOSS button!
[19:11:32] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic
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[19:15:19] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mikael Abrahamsson at the mic
[19:17:09] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Dave Thaler at the mic
[19:17:41] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Erik Kline at the mic
[19:19:30] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Michael Behringer
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[19:20:33] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Mark Townsley commenting
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[19:22:02] <Andrew Yourtchenko> John Brzozowski at the mic
[19:22:31] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Erik Kline at the imc
[19:22:38] <Andrew Yourtchenko> James Woodyatt at the mic
[19:22:43] <Andrew Yourtchenko> %s/imc/mic/g
[19:22:53] <Dave Thaler> My opinion: don't use insecure means to configure the border.  Secure by default and find ways to let the user specify what else to include.
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[19:23:54] <Dave Thaler> (i mean don't use insecure means by default.  I'm aligned with what James is saying)
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[19:24:15] <Andrew Yourtchenko> John Brzozowski at the mic
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[19:25:36] <Andrew Yourtchenko> now shown slide from draft-ietf-homenet-arch-11 "Open issues (2)"
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[19:27:20] <Andrew Yourtchenko> Ralph Droms at the mic
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[19:28:05] <Andrew Yourtchenko> meeting adjourned
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