IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 29, 2013< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[03:07:38] John Jason Brzozowski leaves the room
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[06:18:45] John Jason Brzozowski leaves the room
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[06:52:45] <mcr> morning.
[06:52:49] <mcr> I am remote.
[06:54:22] John Jason Brzozowski joins the room
[06:57:32] tsuichi joins the room
[06:57:48] <Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin> is remote audio working ?
[06:58:08] <Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin> (I'm remote, also)
[06:58:09] <mcr> the audio stream URL, http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf874.m3u contains: http://nagasaki.bogus.com:8000/stream04 which seems to hangup on me.
[06:59:07] <Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin> yep, same for me
[06:59:19] ctg1701 joins the room
[07:00:15] <mcr> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/remote-participation.html#Meetecho does not list homenet either.
[07:00:20] <mcr> I've emailed mtd@ietf.org.
[07:03:10] <Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin> seems to work now
[07:03:16] cz joins the room
[07:03:35] <Juan-Pedro Cerezo Martin> but with lot of distortion
[07:04:25] Ted Lemon joins the room
[07:04:56] Atarashi Yoshifumi joins the room
[07:04:58] <ctg1701> Agenda Review....
[07:05:03] Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room
[07:07:46] ctg1701 leaves the room
[07:07:53] ctg1701 joins the room
[07:07:54] <ctg1701> Homenet Arch Slides...
[07:09:18] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-1.pdf
[07:09:31] <ctg1701> Currently slide 2 - Status review
[07:09:52] kivinen joins the room
[07:09:53] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  Changes since -08
[07:11:03] Jason Weil joins the room
[07:12:37] <ctg1701> Slide 4:  Slide 4
[07:12:41] <ctg1701> Next steps
[07:12:49] <ctg1701> Comments and Questions??
[07:12:49] sa10kan3@gmail.com joins the room
[07:13:06] <ctg1701> Ted Lemon at mike
[07:13:14] <ctg1701> at mic
[07:13:31] <ctg1701> moving on...
[07:13:51] Ray Atarashi joins the room
[07:13:54] <ctg1701> draft-stenberg-homenet-dnssdext-hybrid-proxy-ospf-00 (Markus Stenberg)
[07:14:12] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-2.pdf
[07:14:40] <ctg1701> Slide 2:  Agenda
[07:14:59] <mcr> could back off on the mic slightly...
[07:15:19] <ctg1701> Is it too loud?
[07:15:36] <Ted Lemon> Is it clipping?   If not, it's probably better to turn down volume—the volume here is really up high.
[07:16:24] <ctg1701> fixing mic
[07:17:13] <Ted Lemon> Why does nobody understand that lapel mics are set up to be clipped to the lapel of your T-shirt?
[07:17:28] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  SD 1/3
[07:17:34] ray joins the room
[07:17:59] <ctg1701> He is now holding the mic lower, please advise if it is too loud or not clear
[07:18:26] <ctg1701> Slide 4:  SD 2/3
[07:19:26] pselkirk joins the room
[07:20:34] Christoffer Holmstedt joins the room
[07:21:32] <ctg1701> Slide 5:  SD 3/3
[07:21:55] dthaler joins the room
[07:24:09] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[07:25:00] Brian Haberman joins the room
[07:26:00] <ctg1701> Slide 6:  Impl 1/4
[07:26:01] <ray> Slides for the Source Routing presentation are not yet linked from the Agenda page but are available at <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-7.pdf>
[07:27:14] <ctg1701> Slide 7:  Impl 2/4
[07:29:56] <ctg1701> Slide 8:  Impl 3/4
[07:31:30] <ctg1701> Which is which?
[07:31:37] <ctg1701> free memory...
[07:31:53] <ctg1701> Slide 9:  Impl 4/4
[07:31:58] <mcr> sadly, the sarcasm might be lost due to the mic distortion :-)(
[07:33:07] <ctg1701> Slide 10:  Questions (Cows)
[07:33:26] <ctg1701> Lorenzo at mic
[07:33:52] danyork leaves the room
[07:35:38] <ctg1701> Dave Thayler at Mic
[07:39:44] <ctg1701> Stewart at the mic
[07:40:00] <ray> Stuart Cheshire
[07:40:48] <ctg1701> stuart at the mic
[07:41:22] <ctg1701> Ralph Droms at the mic
[07:43:49] <ctg1701> Bill Manning at mic
[07:44:36] danyork joins the room
[07:44:56] pselkirk leaves the room
[07:45:43] <ctg1701> Tim Chown at mic
[07:46:07] <mcr> mic: I think that Bill Manning's concern is real, but I think that for HTTP we now have solutions where the client can indicate what name it thought it was using to contact the device.  That works for self-signed certificates (if they can be resigned).
[07:46:35] <mcr> Michael Richardson. Yes.
[07:46:43] <ctg1701> Stuart Cheshire at mic
[07:48:50] <ctg1701> Dan York at mic
[07:50:04] <ctg1701> draft-mglt-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-02 (Daniel Migault)
[07:50:14] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-3.pdf
[07:50:18] <ray> audio OK?
[07:50:34] <ctg1701> Slide 2:  Table of Contents
[07:50:37] <Christoffer Holmstedt> much better
[07:50:52] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  Problem Statement
[07:52:12] <ctg1701> Slide 4:  Public Authoritative Server
[07:52:25] <mcr> yes, the audio is much better.
[07:52:35] <ctg1701> Skipped to slide 6:  Public Auth Server
[07:52:45] <mcr> I think that the problems listed as being problems with the CPE are mis-directed.
[07:53:50] <ctg1701> Slide 7:  Questions?
[07:53:54] <mcr> The problem isn't that the CPE can't do DNS(sec), nor that it's so very hard. The problem is that the CPE doesn't have a trust relationship with anyone to that will delegate. That's what Daniel solves...
[07:53:55] Ted Lemon leaves the room
[07:54:25] <danyork> mcr - do you want that comment relayed?
[07:54:26] <mcr> not worth the mic here. I'll write to the list.
[07:55:00] <ctg1701> Tim Chown at Mic
[07:55:09] <ctg1701> Ted Lemon prior at mic
[07:55:29] <ctg1701> Jim Gettys at mic
[07:55:59] <Andrew Sullivan> @mcr: it has always seemed to me that the other thing Daniel solves is ISP vendor lock-in.  
[07:56:04] <Andrew Sullivan> (no, not for mic)
[07:56:24] <ctg1701> Ted Lemon at mic
[07:57:47] Ted Lemon joins the room
[07:57:48] <ctg1701> Simon kelley at mic
[07:57:54] <ray> (dnsmasq author)
[07:59:06] Floris joins the room
[07:59:59] <ctg1701> Erik Kline at mic
[08:00:21] <danyork> (NOT for mic) Back on the last presentation, the report I mentioned at the mic from the ICANN SSAC about the conflict with proposed new gTLDs actually had to do with the issuing of *certificates* for those "internal" TLDs (such as .corp, .local, .site, .home, etc.) - http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-055-en.pdf     The point was similar, though.  There are companies applying for new gTLDs such as ".home" which, if approved, would then make that globally routable and could create conflicts with usage in environments like homenet.
[08:00:27] <mcr> Andrew Sullivan: it certainly provides some ISP lock-in... the idea is that it automates things. Whether a CPE offers a lock-in to the ISP, or a lock-in to the CPE vendor, or...
[08:01:31] <mcr> Andrew Sullivan: but there is a need for reverse DNS delegation.
[08:01:40] <ctg1701> Olafur Guðmundsson @ mic
[08:01:45] <ray> Olafur Gudmunson
[08:02:08] <ray> (oops, didn't see you already introduced him - scrollbar error)
[08:02:24] <ctg1701> Olafur Gudmunson @ mic
[08:02:34] <ctg1701> Bill Manning at mic
[08:03:28] <Andrew Sullivan> I no longer believe there is any utility in the reverse DNS tree, although I recognize that mine is not really a mainstream position.
[08:04:21] <Andrew Sullivan> (I'm sort of trying to follow this meeting from APPSAWG, I should probably shut up.)
[08:05:15] <ctg1701> draft-boutier-homenet-source-specific-routing-00 (Juliusz Chroboczek)
[08:06:01] Suz joins the room
[08:06:11] <mcr> these slides were the ones that were late?
[08:06:20] <ctg1701> yes
[08:06:25] <ray> yes
[08:06:35] <ctg1701> not currently on materials
[08:06:38] Brian Haberman leaves the room
[08:06:44] <ctg1701> Ray published this earlier
[08:08:39] <ctg1701> Currently on slide 4:  next hop routing
[08:09:12] <ctg1701> slide 5:  Limitations
[08:09:41] <ray> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-7.pdf
[08:10:16] <ctg1701> Slide 6:  Limitations (2)
[08:11:01] <ctg1701> Slide 7:  Limitations
[08:11:15] <ctg1701> Slide 7:  Limitations (3)
[08:11:25] zorun joins the room
[08:11:31] <ctg1701> Slide 8:  Manually configured routing rules
[08:11:44] <ctg1701> slide 9:  source routing
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[08:12:51] <ctg1701> slide 10:  source-sensitive routing
[08:13:54] <ctg1701> Slide 11:  Source-sensitive routing (2)
[08:14:46] <ctg1701> Slide 12:  Source-sensitive routing;  specificity
[08:15:24] yuichi.igarashi joins the room
[08:16:02] <ctg1701> slide 13:  source-sensitive routing:  ambiguity
[08:16:51] <ctg1701> Slide 16:  Solving Ambiguity (2) skipped a few slides
[08:17:13] <ctg1701> Slide 17:  Solving Ambiguity (3)
[08:17:40] <ctg1701> Slide 18:  Implementation
[08:18:34] <ctg1701> Lorenzo at mic
[08:18:56] gl joins the room
[08:19:28] <ctg1701> Slide 21:  Implementation (4)
[08:20:30] <ctg1701> Slide 22:  Interoperability with plain babel
[08:21:18] <ctg1701> Slide 23:  Terminology issues
[08:21:52] <ctg1701> Slide 24:  Status and further work
[08:23:04] <ctg1701> Slide 25:  Conclusion
[08:23:04] <mcr> mic: my take home, at this point is three things.  1) do we need a requirement about dealing with the ambiguous source routing case (are there externally visible requirements), 2) babel can easily be extended to handle source routes, and 3) babel can deploy this incrementally (but homenet is really a greenfield for routing protocols).
[08:23:12] <ctg1701> Jim Gettys at mic
[08:23:37] <ray> Chris, will you relay MCR's comment?
[08:24:12] <Ted Lemon> I don't clearly understand mcr's third point.
[08:24:24] dthaler leaves the room
[08:24:31] <ctg1701> will relay at mic shortly
[08:25:22] <mcr> Ted: the fact that babel can add this TLV without screwing up legacy babel deployments (in community mesh networking), is interesting, but not particularly relevant as we assume routing in the home is a green field.
[08:27:38] Markus Stenberg joins the room
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[08:28:46] <mcr> ray: question to the chairs at the end of this presentation. Now that we are the point where we have two proposed technologies, how will the WG decide on a path forward?
[08:29:16] <Ted Lemon> Thanks, that's clearer.
[08:29:28] <Markus Stenberg> the technologies are same more or less
[08:29:34] <Markus Stenberg> Fred Baker's, Juliusz', and Ole's
[08:29:41] <Markus Stenberg> Juliusz draft is closest to real Linux implementation
[08:29:45] <mcr> please/
[08:29:58] <Markus Stenberg> and Fred's furthest away, but same routing result
[08:30:18] <mcr> please remember that there is a 5-10s delay through the audio when you ask a question.
[08:30:55] Floris leaves the room
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[08:31:03] <ctg1701> draft-jvkjjmb-home-networking-incremental-00 (Victor Kuarsingh) John Brzozowski reading presentation
[08:31:14] <ray> @mcr we shall probably suggest that the two groups collaborate on producing a single draft for the WG
[08:31:23] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-4.pdf
[08:31:42] <ctg1701> Slide 1:  Overview
[08:31:48] <Ted Lemon> I am concerned that the Babel effort is going to pull in a large pile of unneeded stuff.
[08:31:54] <mcr> ray: I think that extending OSPFv3 vs extending BABEL is a kinda fundamental question.
[08:32:08] <Ted Lemon> Otherwise, I thought Juliusz's presentation was nicely done, although a bit basic for the audience.
[08:32:48] <ctg1701> Slide 2:  Structure
[08:32:49] <Markus Stenberg> Julius has second presentation about OSPF<>something else angle I think, if there's time
[08:32:59] <mcr> Ted: I think that Babel people will say the same thing about OSPFv3, and I think that both positions are wrong. Both can be rather minimalist, if the code base supports it. Babel has the + or - that it's both a protocol and an implementation.
[08:33:03] <Markus Stenberg> he wrote draft about configuration data etc at least.
[08:33:07] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  Feedback (1/3)
[08:33:43] <mcr> I, myself, prefer to have OSPFv3 as the IGP for the homenet, and babel as the EGP for the homenet participation in a community mesh.
[08:34:28] <ctg1701> Slide 5:  Feedback (2/3)
[08:35:19] <Markus Stenberg> oh, hmm, Juliusz's other presentation got bumped off agenda
[08:35:36] <ctg1701> Slide 6:  Feedback (3/3)
[08:35:59] <ray> yeah, he was originally offered a slot for it but declined it - changed his mind too late
[08:36:37] <ctg1701> Slide 7:  Open Discussion
[08:36:40] <Ted Lemon> ray, is the agenda looking tight to you?
[08:36:44] <ctg1701> Questions??
[08:37:10] <mcr> read it.
[08:37:12] <ctg1701> Ted Lemon at mic
[08:38:04] <ray> @ted the last two presentations are subject to time availability and the presenters are aware that they may be bumped
[08:38:32] <mcr> I need to see something in the "Medius Network"  stage to facilitate an upgrade, or I'm opposed to this.  
[08:39:12] <Markus Stenberg> oddly enough they don't provide any upgrade path whatsoever
[08:39:22] <Markus Stenberg> just define marketing-grade phases :p
[08:39:22] <ctg1701> Lorenzo Colitti at mic
[08:40:10] <ctg1701> sorry, ac at mic
[08:40:28] <ctg1701> Lorenzo Colitti at now at mic
[08:40:58] <mcr> you can not stack the WG names, it takes the first one only now, the problem was that the word "core" shows up too many drafts.
[08:42:22] <mcr> What Lorenzo said, but if the operators want to do something, then can they please write a requirements document?
[08:43:33] <mcr> I think that Mark observation is very astute.
[08:43:35] Floris leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[08:44:06] <mcr> ray: are the right people in the room to actually resolve this now?   It is critical to address this now.
[08:45:05] <ctg1701> Victor Kuarsingh at Mic
[08:46:55] <ctg1701> Lorenzo Colitti back at mic
[08:48:05] <ctg1701> Barbara Stark at Mic
[08:49:21] <ctg1701> Andrew ? at mic
[08:49:46] <Ted Lemon> Andre Yourtchenko
[08:49:49] <ctg1701> Lorenzo Colitti back at mic
[08:49:51] <Ted Lemon> possibly misspelled
[08:50:11] <ctg1701> thank you
[08:50:18] <ctg1701> Ted Lemon at Mic
[08:50:28] <ctg1701> and now not at the mic
[08:52:09] <ctg1701> draft-dessez-homenet-googleplus-interconnect-01 (Cedric Dessez)
[08:52:22] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-6.pdf
[08:52:35] <ctg1701> Slide 2:  Problem Space
[08:52:51] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  Goals
[08:52:52] Chris Donley joins the room
[08:52:54] Ted Lemon leaves the room
[08:53:05] Ted Lemon joins the room
[08:53:27] <mcr> https://plus.google.com/109988850362621109918/posts found this.
[08:54:21] <ctg1701> Slide 5:  Summary from a users perspective
[08:54:31] <mcr> oh, but wait, that violates G+ real names policy?
[08:54:47] <ray> I thought they killed that policy?
[08:55:52] <Markus Stenberg> those are sub-pages
[08:55:57] <Markus Stenberg> not whole google accounts
[08:56:04] <Markus Stenberg> sub-pages don't have to have real names
[08:56:16] <Markus Stenberg> (ok, fine, Bob/Alice are fictious, yes)
[08:56:18] <mcr> they don't look like subpages in anyway.
[08:56:39] <ctg1701> Currently on Slide 7:  Managing Tunnels
[08:57:14] <ctg1701> Slide 8:  Adding routes
[08:57:28] Christoffer Holmstedt leaves the room
[08:58:21] <ctg1701> Slide 9:  Enabling service discovery
[09:00:19] <ctg1701> Slide 10:  
[09:00:26] <ctg1701> Slide 11:  Questions?
[09:00:55] <ctg1701> Juliusz Chroboczek at mic
[09:01:07] <Markus Stenberg> what happened to the routing protocol discussion anyway, the phase stuff stole it?
[09:01:36] Suz leaves the room
[09:02:57] <ray> @ctg yeah, pretty much
[09:03:27] <ray> it covered most of what we expected to be discussed anyway
[09:03:42] <ctg1701> Didn't catch name of person at mic
[09:03:43] <ray> Arturo Severin at the mic
[09:03:57] <ctg1701> thanks ray
[09:04:48] <Ted Lemon> David Lampartchik?   Couldn't quite read his last name from the tag.
[09:05:00] <Ted Lemon> Lamparter
[09:05:20] <ctg1701> Thanks, didn't catch either
[09:05:41] <ctg1701> draft-lepape-6man-prefix-metadata-00 (Ian Farrer)
[09:05:48] gl leaves the room
[09:05:58] Chris Donley leaves the room
[09:06:07] <ctg1701> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-homenet-5.pdf
[09:06:40] <ctg1701> Slide 1:  Intro
[09:08:13] <ctg1701> Slide 3:  Prefix metadata
[09:09:09] Anuj Sehgal joins the room
[09:09:49] <ctg1701> Slide 5:  Home network with video class service
[09:10:04] Anuj Sehgal leaves the room
[09:10:57] <ctg1701> Slide 6:  Premium Video Service and ISP
[09:11:33] danyork leaves the room
[09:13:05] <ctg1701> Slide 8:  Next Steps
[09:13:45] <ctg1701> Lorenzo at mic
[09:16:02] Suz joins the room
[09:16:30] <ctg1701> David Lamparter at mic
[09:17:33] <mcr> is the problem to be solved, how to describe the colour properties?, e.g. "no route to internet".
[09:18:07] <Ted Lemon> this is in one of the drafts they mention at the end of the slide deck.
[09:19:12] <Markus Stenberg> I oddly have even implementation of this stuff
[09:19:16] <ctg1701> Bob Hindon at mic
[09:19:21] <Markus Stenberg> Still not convinced it's good idea though
[09:19:30] <Markus Stenberg> but there are some reasonable arguments for it
[09:21:07] <mcr> I buy it.  It means that big-isp-who-thinks-they-are-the-only-one has a motivation to get prefix selection rules right.
[09:21:25] <Ted Lemon> :)
[09:21:25] <ctg1701> Lorenzo at mic
[09:21:29] Ray Atarashi joins the room
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[09:22:08] <mcr> (it's also totally unuseable with IPv4 + CGN)
[09:22:20] Atarashi Yoshifumi leaves the room
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[09:22:45] <mcr> I would take the colour properties from the address prefix at the CPE, and the colour the DS bits too.
[09:23:29] Ray Atarashi leaves the room
[09:23:33] <ctg1701> Tim Chown at mic
[09:24:13] <mcr> The only reason this is different than the walled garden situation is that the walled garden is from the same ISP as the main ISP.
[09:24:15] <ctg1701> WG Chairs reviewing notes
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[09:26:58] <ctg1701> End of session
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