IETF
homenet@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, 27 July 2011< ^ >
Room Configuration

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[16:55:40] <DaveO> DaveO in the room: designated jabber scribe
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[17:00:16] <Mark Townsley> test
[17:00:20] <DaveO> Wating to start…
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[17:00:52] <Fred Baker> starting to wait
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[17:01:21] <DaveO> to wait? starting.
[17:01:31] <DaveO> Mark Townsley opened the meeting.
[17:01:39] <DaveO> note well...
[17:01:50] <DaveO> Ralph Droms is AD in charge
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[17:02:00] <DaveO> co chairs are Ray Bellis and Mark townsley
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[17:02:17] <DaveO> Stuart Cheshire and Timothy winters are note takers.
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[17:02:22] <DaveO> DaveO is jabber scribe
[17:02:37] <DaveO> network world has already called Droms, and already been slashdotted.
[17:02:59] <DaveO> Homenet ≠ homegate
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[17:03:16] <DaveO> interim meetin go fhomegate done in by volcano.
[17:03:38] <DaveO> some well-received rfcs oout of negate 092, 6125, 6204
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[17:04:20] <DaveO> figuring out how chartering of homenet affects any ongoing work that came out of homegate.
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[17:04:51] <DaveO> goal of having an ipv6 home net that works as well and hopefully better than what we have today.
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[17:05:23] <DaveO> worked hard to pick scope - mostly at layer 3, focusin on home network itself.
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[17:05:36] <DaveO> stay away from specifying the networks-to-isp interface.
[17:05:56] <DaveO> five areas - prefix delegation, routing, nameresolution, service discovery, network security.
[17:05:58] <PHB> Erm why does making the network work well have to be coupled to IPv6? The objective should be to service the home user's needs.
[17:06:26] <adrianfarrel> At some convenient and appropriate time, could a jabberee please let the room know that Acee Lindem has agreed to be Routing Area Advisor to Homenet addressing the rquest in the original draft charter for this role to be filled. The charter page will need to be updated.
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[17:07:22] <martin.thomson> DaveO: please use a mic when you do- I can't hear you from the back of the room
[17:07:50] <DaveO> that means getting up and getting down and losing conext. I'm not sittin gnear a mic - asked for one here and didn't get one.
[17:07:57] <Robert Cragie> (for the latecomers) which preso are we on?
[17:08:08] <martin.thomson> is there someone else on here who has better access to a mic?
[17:08:09] <mcharlesr> slide: consumer routers
[17:08:21] <DaveO> Chair slides
[17:08:54] <DaveO> I'll let somebody else in the jabber room go to the mic
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[17:09:17] <Robert Cragie> homenet-2
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[17:09:55] <DaveO> Ralph Droms geting up to give AD advice.
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[17:10:26] <DaveO> really glad facebook was not around hen Ralph was in college...
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[17:10:34] <DaveO> stunning turnout
[17:10:46] <DaveO> taken a while, some evolutionary work with homegate.
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[17:11:09] <DaveO> aimed now exactly where we need to be - good work but bounded driven by real world requirements
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[17:11:49] <DaveO> back to Mark - on to agenda bashing
[17:11:59] <DaveO> agenda slide up
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[17:12:28] <DaveO> next is 30 mins on architecture - arkko-townsley-homenet-arch
[17:13:03] <DaveO> then 25 mins on prefix config and managing routing
[17:13:39] <DaveO> the 20 mins by Chris Palmer on security - iportant topic - what hosts in home want from the net
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[17:14:10] <DaveO> then discussion of name resolution based on mailing list discussion - Chris Griffiths did preso based on mailing list
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[17:14:33] <DaveO> won't talk about service discovery at this meeting today,
[17:14:37] <DaveO> OK on agenda?
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[17:14:39] <DaveO> yes
[17:14:42] <DaveO> on to Jari.
[17:15:05] <DaveO> preso is "thoughts on Home Networking Architecture"
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[17:15:54] <DaveO> outline slide:
[17:16:02] <DaveO> next slide trentds.
[17:16:42] <Robert Cragie> homenet-1
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[17:17:46] <chris.grundemann> link to slides?
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[17:18:32] <barryleiba> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
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[17:18:46] <Robert Cragie> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-1.pdf
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[17:20:25] <DaveO> slide: ASIC network architectures
[17:20:29] <DaveO> BASIC
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[17:22:32] <DaveO> slide with 11 subnets (about) in home
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[17:22:56] <chris.grundemann> thanks
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[17:24:17] <DaveO> slide: some experiences
[17:25:27] <DaveO> slide: some experiences
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[17:26:17] <PHB> And here we see the reason that NAT will never go away.
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[17:28:21] <DaveO> slide: some experiences (3) - internet of things
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[17:29:43] <jweil> I'll give them a call after this meeting but shouldn't be a problem
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[17:30:11] <jweil> oops. sorry
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[17:30:22] <DaveO> slide: some experiences (4)
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[17:31:44] <DaveO> some experiences (5) naming and service discovery
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[17:32:06] <DaveO> slide: funcionality
[17:32:44] <DaveO> slide: some design principles
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[17:35:17] <DaveO> Jar done - some discussion time ok
[17:35:39] <DaveO> Townsley: don't dive too deep into each of those five areas
[17:35:58] <DaveO> Lee Howard - can you clarify what policy means
[17:36:17] <DaveO> meant security policy - what traffic can go in/out
[17:36:33] <DaveO> EriK Nordmark at the mic - can topology have loops?
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[17:37:20] <DaveO> Jari: can happen with mistakes
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[17:37:53] <DaveO> townsley - wold be nice to hook things up and it just works
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[17:38:11] <DaveO> Jeff Stromley at mic
[17:38:25] <DaveO> scared about what he sees - conflicting goals
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[17:39:07] <DaveO> jari answering - where do you draw the line?
[17:39:46] <DaveO> Phil Hallam Baker at mic
[17:39:57] <DaveO> non-ip equipemtn will be there and complicate things
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[17:41:50] <DaveO> next talk: Fred Baker
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[17:42:13] <DaveO> slides: exploing the multi-hop home network
[17:42:26] <DaveO> multi-router
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[17:43:22] <Robert Cragie> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-3.pptx
[17:43:30] <DaveO> slide:residential network and home area network interaciton
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[17:54:23] <DaveO> moving to next presentation: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet- <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-3.pptx>4.pptx
[17:54:40] <DaveO> "routing a class of traffic"
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[17:58:58] <PHB> Seems to me that if we do this we also need to change the model of DNS so that it is providing a mapping from names to routes and QoS criteria and not just the address.
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[17:59:18] <DaveO> end of presentation - questions now
[17:59:27] <DaveO> Dave Thaler at mic
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[18:03:15] <DaveO> mark townsley talking
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[18:03:51] <Dave Thaler> I was asking because that one is real (already in use) as opposed to hypothetical or "in my home"
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[18:04:25] <DaveO> except everything to the "internet" in that scenario is tunneled through the walled garden
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[18:05:14] <DaveO> Michael Richardson at the mic
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[18:08:06] <DaveO> mark townsley responding...
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[18:15:27] <Robert Cragie> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-5.pptx
[18:15:27] <PHB> Pete: We both still want the interface to look something like 'gethostbyname', the app gives the domain name and service identifier (port of prefix) and gets back a connection.
[18:15:29] <DaveO> Chris palmer - http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet- <http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-3.pptx>5.pptx
[18:15:45] <barryleiba> Awesome!
[18:16:27] <DaveO> gethostbyname does not give you a connection back, if it did we would not have so much pain migrating to ipv6
[18:16:42] <barryleiba> PHB: Actually, I think the app layer needs to work ONLY with identifiers, and NOT have to resolve them into anything routable.
[18:16:55] <DaveO> +1 to Barry
[18:16:57] <barryleiba> The resolution should be happening at a much lower layer.
[18:16:59] <Fred Baker> yes
[18:17:05] <PHB> Pet: Buuuuuut all that information has to be be made available to the network infrastructure at some level so that they can act on it. If there is a service that needs a 'green' TCP connection then that has to be declared somewhere.
[18:18:12] <barryleiba> Quote of the day: "I think magic is hard to do."
[18:18:20] <Dave Thaler> any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
[18:18:21] <PHB> DaveO (not for mic), as I said, something like gethostby name. But gethostbyname needs fixing anyway.
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[18:19:08] <Sander Steffann> ULA has Global scope, right?
[18:19:33] <Dave Thaler> right
[18:19:44] <Robert Cragie> ULA gets my vote
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[18:20:55] <Barbara S> A router will know whether it "owns" the ULA or not. If the ULA came from above it will know and can route. If it generated the ULA, it will know and not route to the WAN. ULA gets my vote, too.
[18:21:08] <Robert Cragie> +1
[18:21:08] <DaveO> "above"?
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[18:21:59] <PHB> +1
[18:22:03] <Sander Steffann> +1
[18:22:10] <resnick> @phb: I don't want to have to know about this stuff as an app. MPTCP helps with some of this. Real routing should help with the rest. I agree that from the apps point of view, I want to provide a name (both for destination and service) and I don't want to have to pass it to the network layer.
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[18:22:50] <Barbara S> "above" = WAN; you know, the god-like (demonic?) ISP
[18:22:52] <resnick> If the API is going to stick me with having an "address sized thing" and a "port number sized" thing, then the lower layer can treat those as IDs and route to the "right" place itself.
[18:22:55] <PHB> Its not a security boundary, its the responsibility boundary.
[18:23:39] <Sander Steffann> @phb: well, then you know who is responsible for the security...
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[18:23:59] <Dave Thaler> or if you get a ULA prefix in DHCP-PD
[18:24:07] <Dave Thaler> (failure more)
[18:24:11] <Dave Thaler> (mode)
[18:24:18] <PHB> @Steffann, or the lack of security…. there will always be responsibility, security is optional
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[18:24:44] <Sander Steffann> @dave true, if your ISP (or TV provider etc) gives you ULA addresses then this fails
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[18:25:31] <Sander Steffann> And overloading the address 'type' for security or responsibility signalling might have other problems
[18:25:51] <Sander Steffann> So this needs to be communicated in a different way
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[18:25:56] <Dave Thaler> a non-homenet-compatible gateway that does DHCP-PD would blindly route ULA between inside and outside.
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[18:26:14] <Dave Thaler> Stuart did address this by saying he doesn't care, narrowing it is the important thing, not a hard boundary.
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[18:26:38] <Sander Steffann> It's definitely better than nothing, and it might indeed be enough
[18:27:02] <versteb@cisco.com> It's definitely better than nothing, and it might indeed be enough
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[18:30:12] <Robert Cragie> Erik had a very good point
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[18:31:24] <Dave Thaler> if only networks had user-readable names...
[18:31:51] <Sander Steffann> And if bad people don't give networks misleading names?
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[18:31:58] <Robert Cragie> How do you trust the name? This is an issue with SSIDs now to some extent
[18:32:10] <Dave Thaler> @Robert: exactly...
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[18:32:40] <Sander Steffann> -'don't' of course...
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[18:33:45] <Chris Tuska> Agree SSID has the same issue now
[18:34:02] <Robert Cragie> 802.11 is not necessarily a power hog
[18:34:33] <Fred Baker> My telephone has a configured SSID for when I use it as an AP: "FBI Surveillance Van #32"
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[18:35:03] <Sander Steffann> @Fred nice :)
[18:35:13] <adrianfarrel> @Fred Baker : *You* are #32? That explains a lot
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[18:35:27] <Chris Tuska> @ Fred :) Nice..
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[18:36:11] <Robert Cragie> We need to figure out multi-link subnets and multi-subnet 'sitenets' (for want of a better word)
[18:36:44] <PHB> @Fred, NSA would be better, impersonating a police officer could be trouble, impersonating a spook is not an offense in any country as far as I know.
[18:36:45] <DaveO> You mean "site local" :-(
[18:36:49] <Dave Thaler> this slide is confused.
[18:37:08] <Hugh_Daniel> sitenets, where some of the sites think they get to control EVERYTHING (work extrusion networks) but need to be limited none the less.
[18:37:33] <Robert Cragie> homenet is a type of sitenet
[18:37:55] <Robert Cragie> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/slides/homenet-0.pdf
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[18:41:24] <resnick> Why is DNS proxying ever useful? Why not DHCP the DNS Servers?
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[18:42:01] <DaveO> it's a lzay alternative to a revcusvie resolver
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[18:43:08] <resnick> @dave: I don't think that answered my question. There's got to be a recursive server somewhere. Why proxy instead of just sending the clients to the real recursive server?
[18:43:33] <DaveO> what happens when the uplink is down?
[18:43:47] <resnick> Why do you need DNS if the uplink is down?
[18:43:48] <DaveO> these "proxies" often reply with lies
[18:44:10] <resnick> Oh!
[18:44:13] <DaveO> to find other things in the house, for example
[18:44:28] <DaveO> e.g. talk to my router by name
[18:44:35] <resnick> Broken broken broken.
[18:44:38] <Sander Steffann> @dave Split horizon DNS?
[18:44:39] <DaveO> mDNS does this, except only on link loca;l
[18:44:48] <resnick> mDNS is fine.
[18:44:55] <resnick> Just don't use real DNS to do that.
[18:44:58] <DaveO> as Pete said- broken broken broekn
[18:45:04] <sm> Easier than remembering IP addresses
[18:45:15] <resnick> @sm: mDNS is fine.
[18:45:19] <DaveO> so, we do need to fix mDNS to not use link-local
[18:45:25] <sm> Yes
[18:45:33] <Dave Thaler> depends on whether you have a requirement for multicast routing
[18:45:46] <Dave Thaler> in chris's proposal above, no you don't need mdns or netbios or llmnr
[18:45:49] <Dave Thaler> you just use DNS
[18:46:07] <resnick> Chris's proposal is proxy?
[18:46:10] <Dave Thaler> the others need either:a) bridging, or b) multicast routing
[18:46:26] <Dave Thaler> chris's proposal is gateway is the authoritative DNS server for the (whole) home
[18:46:33] <Dave Thaler> and you put records there
[18:46:45] <resnick> Oh. That's OK.
[18:46:46] <DaveO> right
[18:46:55] <resnick> Real recursive DNS for the house.
[18:46:56] <resnick> Peachy.
[18:47:01] <DaveO> or you have a dedicated box…like your NAS
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[18:47:42] <DaveO> I prefer to put it there since it has disks / plenty of memory
[18:48:01] <DaveO> and lots of the resources you'd like to name in the house
[18:48:11] <DaveO> but know not everybody has a NAS.
[18:48:14] <Dave Thaler> I think "just use DNS" can work (not trivial, but workable) except I'm not sure yet how to deal with the guest lan issue. probably solvable but needs a bunch of thought.
[18:48:33] <resnick> For an average home net, I have a hard time believing you need lots of disks/memory to deal with DNS.
[18:48:35] <Dave Thaler> maybe 2 zones, and split dns or something.
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[18:49:29] <DaveO> if guest LAN is only to tunnel out to the internet (as opposed to access the network in the house through a router/firewall, why do you care if the guest LAN doesn't work when the uplink is down
[18:50:02] <Dave Thaler> there's 3 types of requesting clients: a) ones on the trusted network, b) ones you've allowed onto your gues network, and c) ones on the general internet. What the requirements are for who should be able to resolve names of machines on the trusted network, is the first question. And how to do it is the second.
[18:51:27] <Sander Steffann> @DaveT I agree. First decide which names should be visible where, and then see how to get them there
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[18:52:41] <Dave Thaler> mdns, llmnr, netbios, etc today have the property of being not resolvable from the public DNS, and so avoids the whole "DNS wasn't designed to do that" debate. So does split dns which parts of the IETF don't want to talk about.
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[18:52:56] <DaveO> @Sander…. hmmmm… in DNS all names are visible everywhere - are you sure you meant "visible"?
[18:53:34] <Sander Steffann> @DaveO I see plenty of organizations that don't agree...
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[18:53:51] <Dave Thaler> @DaveO: all names aren't visible everywhere in reality
[18:53:56] <Sander Steffann> And I don't want to start a discussion about that now here
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[18:54:04] <Sander Steffann> I know it's a difficult subject
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[18:54:27] <Dave Thaler> and this WG will need to dive into it (fun fun fun)
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[18:55:20] <DaveO> @DaveT is that a feature or a bug?
[18:55:37] <Dave Thaler> depends on who you ask. If you ask me, it's a feature.
[18:55:54] <Dave Thaler> it's an example of "wild" success [RFC5218] in any case.
[18:55:56] <PHB> I have an authoritative server for .local in the house (actually there are two as one is for dev)
[18:56:56] <DaveO> Mark is bout to close the meeting...
[18:57:04] <Dave Thaler> no service discovery discussion today?
[18:57:17] <DaveO> no 0 the agenda bashing mentioned
[18:57:21] <Sander Steffann> I hear him. Too bad, this is interesting
[18:57:24] <Sander Steffann> *raises hand*
[18:57:27] <DaveO> that we would not get to it
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[18:57:52] <DaveO> bye
[18:57:56] <Dave Thaler> ok daveo
[18:57:58] <Hugh_Daniel> Would this meeting ALSO be accessable online?
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[18:58:17] <Sander Steffann> Thanks to the chairs!
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