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[06:02:26] <richard.barnes> hi john!
[06:02:35] <jchiaramonte> Hey Richard!
[06:02:47] <jchiaramonte> Remote access will have to do!
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[06:02:54] <richard.barnes> sorry you couldn't make it
[06:03:12] <jchiaramonte> Has the session started?
[06:03:12] <richard.barnes> you can't use the cool little HELD prototype we installed
[06:03:22] <richard.barnes> not yet, still another minute or two
[06:03:33] <jchiaramonte> ok - just heard audio kick in - thanks
[06:03:44] --- Dan York has joined
[06:04:00] <richard.barnes> any voluteers to scribe?
[06:04:28] <Dan York> I can scribe
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[06:04:44] <richard.barnes> thanks, Dan
[06:05:03] <Dan York> Chairs just getting started with agenda
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[06:06:18] <Dan York> Audio at http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf715.m3u
[06:07:09] <Dan York> Agenda at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/agenda/geopriv.txt
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[06:10:56] <Dan York> Agenda slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/geopriv-0.ppt
[06:11:28] <Dan York> Discussion of interim meeting with GEOPRIV/ECRIT in June.
[06:11:40] <Dan York> James Polk at mic
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[06:12:15] <Dan York> HTTP location delivery
[06:12:22] <Dan York> Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/geopriv-1.ppt
[06:12:30] <Dan York> Mary Barnes presenting
[06:13:09] <Dan York> WGLC ends on March 21st so get comments in now
[06:13:25] <Dan York> Slide 4 - HELD version 04 changes
[06:13:26] <Dan York> Slide 5
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[06:14:37] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[06:15:11] <Dan York> Slide 6
[06:16:11] <Dan York> Slide 7 - to dash or not to dash
[06:16:55] <Dan York> Brian Rosen
[06:18:28] <Dan York> Slide 8
[06:19:34] <Dan York> EKR at mic - why do we have a HELD URI?
[06:20:17] <Dan York> Lisa Dassaut (?) at mic answering EKR
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[06:21:49] <Dan York> EKR responding
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[06:22:46] <Dan York> Ted Hardie at mic
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[06:25:34] <Dan York> Jeff Hodges at mic
[06:26:00] <richard.barnes> Dusseault
[06:26:25] <Dan York> Ted back at mic
[06:28:18] <Randall Gellens> EKR asks why there is a HELD: URI scheme.  Lisa says if any URI is allowed, people use all sorts of non-interoperable ones that are useful to them, whereas if they use HTTP, there is go guarantee that the resource they get is what they want, as it might be a web page, a cgi script, etc.  Ted says that it preserves the context.
[06:30:13] <Randall Gellens> EKR says if TLS is required then the scheme must end in an "S"
[06:30:32] <Dan York> Next open issue is VPN Device Serving as a LIS
[06:31:42] <Dan York> FYI, GEOPRIV "experiment" at IETF71 - http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/71attendees/current/msg00164.html
[06:32:11] <Dan York> Chair asking for views
[06:32:21] <Dan York> Mary proposes deleting the entire section
[06:32:28] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[06:32:38] <Dan York> Henning at mic
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[06:33:25] <Dan York> Last slide
[06:33:28] <Dan York> Way Forward
[06:34:00] <Dan York> Preso done
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[06:34:50] <Dan York> Jon Peterson speaking
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[06:36:00] <Dan York> draft-peterson-geopriv-location-retransmission
[06:36:27] <Dan York> I don't see the slides on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/71/materials.html
[06:37:07] <Randall Gellens> Key issue: what does 'retransmission allowed' in pidf-lo mean for SIP routing elements?
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[06:37:43] <Dan York> Henning at mic
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[06:38:06] <Randall Gellens> Or, how to allow or prohibit location being used for routing by SIP elements: use "reransmission allowed
[06:38:19] <Randall Gellens> " or use new parameter in SIP header
[06:40:54] <Dan York> Proposal: SIP Location conveyance should reflect (and/or reference) these principles
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[06:42:12] <rohan> "Dusseault"
[06:42:51] <rohan> <Jon removes shoes>
[06:43:02] <Ted> One shoe
[06:44:05] <Dan York> James Polk at mic
[06:45:00] <Dean Willis> It was just one shoe, which was spoof on the Maxwell Smart shoe=phone gag (as he was getting GSM beeping on his wireless mic and had already taken two phones out of his pockets)
[06:46:20] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[06:47:11] <Dan York> Ted at mic
[06:48:07] <Randall Gellens> Discussion about location by reference versus by value when granting or withholding permission for SIP elements to use geolocation for routing and also granting or withholding permission for endpoint to obtain location
[06:48:47] <Dan York> James Polk at mic
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[06:49:51] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[06:50:41] <Dan York> Hannes Tschofenig at mic just saying we should do what the doc says
[06:50:46] <Dan York> Ted at mic
[06:51:26] <Dan York> Henning at mic
[06:52:07] <Randall Gellens> Point that adding parameter to location header in SIP is an optimization for L-by-R because a SIP routing element can know immediately that it doesn't need to bother fetching location 
[06:52:20] <Randall Gellens> Discussion if this same principle applies to end systems
[06:53:24] <Dan York> James Polk at mic with a compromise
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[06:55:33] <richard.barnes> was the proposal to add a similar parameter for end systems?
[06:55:37] <Randall Gellens> James suggests adding "end system" or "router" to parameter, so same optimization applies to both routing and end systems
[06:56:00] <Randall Gellens> If I understood James' suggestion
[06:56:02] <richard.barnes> so the same as the recipient= parameter
[06:56:06] <richard.barnes> essentially
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[06:58:02] <Dan York> Keith Draage (SIP Chair) at mic
[06:58:11] <Dan York> SIP WG owns location conveyance
[06:58:42] <Dan York> Keith wants a written requirement
[06:59:13] <Dan York> SIP WG will not follow any guidance until it is a GEOPRIV consensus
[06:59:21] <Dan York> Ted Hardie at mic
[07:00:31] <Randall Gellens> Ted: the question is if it is a valuable optimization to tell systems that they need not fetch the location because they aren't permitted
[07:00:52] <Randall Gellens> Ted asks if we have consensus on that point
[07:01:43] <Randall Gellens> James asks if we can also see if we have consensus on the same hint (don
[07:01:54] <Randall Gellens> (don't bother looking) for location-by-value
[07:03:44] <Dan York> chairs asking for who has read the doc
[07:03:56] <Dan York> Robert Sparks asking the questions
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[07:05:05] <Dan York> Robert Sparks up next for preso 
[07:05:14] <Dan York> Slides at http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/geopriv-2.ppt
[07:06:18] <Dan York> slide 2
[07:06:23] <Dan York> slide 3
[07:09:03] <Dan York> Up to slide 7 now
[07:09:16] * Dan York apologizes for missing the other transitions
[07:09:21] <Dan York> slide 8
[07:10:00] <Dan York> James Polk at mic
[07:10:17] <Dan York> Back to slide 5
[07:11:01] <Dan York> James - picture is mispresented
[07:11:38] <Dan York> Chair - what are we going to do with 3825?
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[07:12:25] <Dan York> Hannes at mic
[07:13:28] <Dan York> what are use cases for DHCP carrying information around?
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[07:17:10] <victor.pascual.avila> Henning at mic
[07:17:38] <Dan York> someone at mic (didn't give name)
[07:17:43] <Dan York> agrees with Henning
[07:18:29] <Dan York> EKR at mic
[07:20:22] <Dan York> Henning at mic - has anyone talked to IEEE?
[07:20:51] <Dan York> LLDP-MED is more widely deployed.. does it also pass location info?
[07:22:13] <Dan York> Are we worried about something that isn't being used?
[07:24:26] <Dan York> <unknown> at mic
[07:26:49] <Dan York> Henning at mic
[07:27:12] <Dan York> If remote listeners do have questions please feel free to raise them and I'm glad to ask them.
[07:28:22] <Ted> That was John Schnizlein, by the way (before Henning)
[07:28:32] <Dan York> Cullen at mic
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[07:29:55] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[07:30:10] <Dan York> Brian believes we need a doc that explains how to convert to GML, etc.
[07:32:04] <Dan York> Brian Rosen back at mic
[07:32:48] <Dan York> EKR at mic
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[07:34:20] <Dan York> Hannes at mic - Brian's approach is wrong
[07:35:06] <Dan York> <unknown> at mic
[07:35:21] <Dan York> Brian Rosen at mic
[07:35:40] <Ted> James Winterbottom was before Brian
[07:37:14] <Dan York> Ted: Thanks
[07:37:21] <Dan York> Henning at mic proposing options
[07:37:43] <Barbara> I vote we make them stop and move on.
[07:39:54] <Dan York> :-)
[07:43:34] <Dean Willis> I vote we yank the project out of this group and find some people who had basic geometry classes and understand binary arithmetic.
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[07:46:29] <Dean Willis> we can't even seem to agree on what a point is, much less what RFC 3825 means when it describes one at some level of resolution.
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[07:48:33] <=JeffH> u mean go cosmic?
[07:48:42] <=JeffH> "beyond lat & long" ?
[07:48:46] <Dean Willis> General relativity.
[07:49:25] <=JeffH> nah, just newtonian astrophysics
[07:49:58] <Dean Willis> well, if we aren't going quantum, why bother?
[07:50:14] <Barbara> You mean, what's the  point?
[07:50:26] <=JeffH> cuz if you squint hard, u don't know where u are.....
[07:50:30] <Dean Willis> No, I mean it's pointless.
[07:50:42] <Dean Willis> All space is in the gaps between the points.
[07:51:03] <=JeffH> and time is really just an illusion
[07:51:18] <Dean Willis> Bingo. Except bar time, which is a different relativity.
[07:51:28] <=JeffH> and elbow exercise
[07:51:43] <Dan York> Richard Barnes speaking
[07:51:46] <Dan York> draft-barnes-geopriv-lo-sec
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[08:06:21] <Dan York> Okay, we're back
[08:09:04] <Dan York> test
[08:10:48] <Dan York> Slide 9
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[08:15:35] <ted> I'm loving the idea of a "The story of Geopriv" document.  I'm thinking of an audio book, probably read aloud by James Earl Jones.  I'm particularly looking forward to the bits recounting the years of struggle.
[08:15:55] <ted> Those are so inspiring for other workings groups, as they grow up and face their own issues.
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[08:16:28] <jchiaramonte> James Earl Jones or Navin R Johnson - you decide
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[08:17:05] * Dan York laughs
[08:17:54] <Dan York> Presentation done
[08:18:46] <Dan York> Roger Marshall asking if people want to talk about LibY requirements here
[08:19:15] <Dan York> Time deferred
[08:19:33] <Dan York> James Polk up
[08:19:35] <Dan York> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/geopriv-5.ppt
[08:19:39] <Dan York> (slides)
[08:19:52] <Dan York> Slide 4 - what's changed
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[08:21:27] <Dan York> Richard Barnes asking a question
[08:22:48] <Dan York> Slide 6
[08:23:06] <Dan York> Richard Barnes
[08:23:20] <Dan York> Roger Marshall at mic
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[08:27:27] <Dan York> James Winterbottom - HTTP Dereference
[08:27:50] <Dan York> Slides - http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/slides/geopriv-6.ppt
[08:28:57] <Dan York> Chair - who thinks we should charter this item?
[08:29:06] <Dan York> Chair will approach ADs
[08:29:44] <Dan York> Cullen at mic
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[08:30:19] <Barbara> Hum for this is good baseline.
[08:30:22] <lj324o230ar> off-topic: can anyone in this room provide a reference for how handset receives Cell-ID?
[08:31:47] <ted> Do you mean for GSM?
[08:31:54] <lj324o230ar> yes, exactly
[08:33:37] <Dan York> Session is now over.
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[08:33:51] <ted> If you are looking for apis, it depends on the operating system
[08:34:01] <ted> for symbian, to take on example, look at http://mikie.iki.fi/symbian/cellid.html
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[08:34:13] <lj324o230ar> thanks ted
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