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[17:26:16] <Suresh Krishnan> Do we need rules for teams?
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[17:27:00] <peterd> maybe
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[17:27:38] <Suresh Krishnan> discussing recent procedure changes
[17:27:54] <Suresh Krishnan> high impact issue is the mission statement
[17:28:25] <Suresh Krishnan> it starts off as low impact. it just states what the ietf does now
[17:28:31] <Suresh Krishnan> passed as bcp
[17:29:30] <Suresh Krishnan> Procedure which allows procedure changes passed as BCP
[17:30:11] <Suresh Krishnan> open issue is that when does the ISOC BoT approve changes to the standars process
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[17:32:24] <Suresh Krishnan> new procedure to allow more control for the WG chair on the IETF mailing list
[17:32:40] <Suresh Krishnan> chair can suspend/revoke posting privileges for anybody on the ML
[17:32:50] <Suresh Krishnan> previously IESG had to approve this
[17:33:28] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:33:48] <Suresh Krishnan> new mechanisms for finding consensus
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[17:34:03] <Suresh Krishnan> will be passed as the IESG
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[17:34:32] <Suresh Krishnan> will be passed as Experimental by the IESG
[17:35:10] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:35:58] <Suresh Krishnan> IMPORTANT: New change for allowing Standards track documents to refer to things which they were forbidden to refer to
[17:36:04] <Suresh Krishnan> if the WG approves it.
[17:36:27] <Suresh Krishnan> I think this will make life easier
[17:36:30] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:36:43] <Suresh Krishnan> Vendor extensions still under discussion
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[17:37:17] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:37:52] <Suresh Krishnan> RFC editor documents are not IESG's resposibility
[17:38:06] <Suresh Krishnan> anymore. RFC editor to ensure technical correctness
[17:38:23] <Suresh Krishnan> IESG can still comment on RFC editor documents
[17:38:48] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:39:07] <Suresh Krishnan> New proposal to let only one half of the IES review a given document
[17:39:11] <Suresh Krishnan> 1 AD per area
[17:39:18] <Suresh Krishnan> results are inconclusive
[17:39:31] <Suresh Krishnan> experiment to continue
[17:40:00] <Suresh Krishnan> red team/blue team
[17:40:20] <Suresh Krishnan> blue team has the AD whose first name occurs first in the alphabet
[17:41:13] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:41:16] <Suresh Krishnan> stuff to do
[17:41:31] <Suresh Krishnan> icar for early review make a new wg
[17:42:23] <Suresh Krishnan> newtrk for procedure changes make a new wg
[17:42:50] <Suresh Krishnan> both these groups do not have much interest. 60-90 members in mailing list
[17:44:07] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:44:30] <Suresh Krishnan> margaret : edu team update
[17:45:42] <Suresh Krishnan> eduteam is a functional team chartered by the IESG
[17:46:27] <Suresh Krishnan> charter at http://edu.ietf.org/archives/000103.html
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[17:46:48] <Suresh Krishnan> mailto:edu-team@ietf.org
[17:47:15] <Suresh Krishnan> website is http://edu.ietf.org
[17:47:47] <Suresh Krishnan> conducted a bunch of training sessions
[17:48:09] <Suresh Krishnan> for newcomers/editors/WG chairs/security ...
[17:48:25] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:48:31] <Suresh Krishnan> smiley face experiment
[17:48:55] <Suresh Krishnan> people who wear a smiley face on their badge are willing to answer questions regarding IETF
[17:49:53] <Suresh Krishnan> will do local language sessions for introductions
[17:50:09] <Suresh Krishnan> even though the meetings will still be in English
[17:51:08] <Suresh Krishnan> WG chair training applies to non-chairs as well
[17:51:39] <Suresh Krishnan> everyone is open to attend
[17:51:46] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:52:13] <Suresh Krishnan> all the training material is available at edu.ietf.org
[17:53:37] <Suresh Krishnan> eduteam will inform the IETF participants about any process changes as required
[17:54:27] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:54:33] <Suresh Krishnan> make training materials more accesible
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[17:55:01] <Suresh Krishnan> -> EDU team website is not reachable from main IETF web site
[17:55:14] <Suresh Krishnan> -> All the material is MS Powerpoint slides
[17:55:55] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[17:56:14] <Suresh Krishnan> two new training sessions planned
[17:56:32] <Suresh Krishnan> 1) How to bring new work to the IETF?
[17:56:45] <Suresh Krishnan> -> How to bring new documents into a WG
[17:56:54] <Suresh Krishnan> -> How to form new WGs
[17:57:24] <Suresh Krishnan> 2) IETF Protocol engineering fundamentals
[17:57:35] <Suresh Krishnan> -> It is a technical session
[17:58:07] <Suresh Krishnan> -> What are the technical considerations people must consider
[17:58:46] <Suresh Krishnan> -> Focus on cross area issues like security and i18n
[17:59:19] <Suresh Krishnan> and congestion control
[17:59:44] <Suresh Krishnan> and mtu issues in tunneling
[18:00:13] <Suresh Krishnan> every problem brought up here is one less mistake authors will make
[18:01:08] <Suresh Krishnan> question: Will there be a FAQ for eduteam topics ?
[18:01:50] <Suresh Krishnan> yes. the information from the training material will be made more searchable
[18:01:53] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:02:07] <Suresh Krishnan> training for ICAR reviewers
[18:02:19] <Suresh Krishnan> same for NEWTRK
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[18:03:30] <Suresh Krishnan> people with web publishing or newsletter experience required for the edu team
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[18:04:43] <Suresh Krishnan> numbers for training
[18:04:54] <Suresh Krishnan> 60-70 for most of the trainings
[18:05:04] <Suresh Krishnan> except for WG chair training - 20 people
[18:05:17] <Suresh Krishnan> 200 people for korean language newcomer's training
[18:07:51] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:09:28] <Suresh Krishnan> more training about how to make consesus
[18:11:17] <Suresh Krishnan> ---mailin list posting privilege revocation does not preclude appeals
[18:11:22] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:11:51] <Suresh Krishnan> privacy issues with archives in FTP
[18:12:31] <Suresh Krishnan> no proof that spammers are using this for harvesting addresses
[18:12:50] <Suresh Krishnan> there is a need to maintain this archive for record keeping
[18:13:09] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:14:29] <Suresh Krishnan> proto team : aaron
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[18:16:35] <Suresh Krishnan> Document writeups for WG chairs including a questionnaire
[18:16:52] <Suresh Krishnan> about stuff which happened in the WG/mailing list
[18:17:02] <Suresh Krishnan> --
[18:17:32] <Suresh Krishnan> Handling AD evaluation
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[18:18:32] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:18:51] <Suresh Krishnan> collecting surveys from participants ADs and WG chairs
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[18:19:19] <Suresh Krishnan> www.mip4.org/2004/survey
[18:19:33] <Suresh Krishnan> has a tool for collecting survey data
[18:20:02] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:20:25] <Suresh Krishnan> a document writeup is a checkist for procedures to be followed before getting to the AD
[18:20:32] <Suresh Krishnan> reduces ADs work load
[18:20:43] <Suresh Krishnan> and number of round trips between AD and WG chairs
[18:20:54] <Suresh Krishnan> and the round trip time
[18:20:57] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:21:02] <Suresh Krishnan> lessons learned
[18:21:35] <Suresh Krishnan> -> more ADs and WG chairs need to be involved
[18:22:05] <Suresh Krishnan> -> WG chairs like the added transparency
[18:22:31] <Suresh Krishnan> wise to avoid situations where author==wgchair==sheperd
[18:23:52] <Suresh Krishnan> requires management from the PROTO team
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[18:24:08] <Suresh Krishnan> AD attentiveness is key for success
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[18:24:53] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:25:01] <Suresh Krishnan> Feedback required
[18:25:17] <Suresh Krishnan> ->Should the pilot be expanded - Yes
[18:25:47] <Suresh Krishnan> -> What metrics should be concentrated on - quality and timeliness
[18:26:55] <Suresh Krishnan> brian carpenter: Do WG chairs feel that they needed to put in more time than expected? Yes, but worth it
[18:27:41] <Suresh Krishnan> scott bradner: Is this going to go beyong a pilot? No. The proto team has not been chartered to go beyond a pilot
[18:29:28] <Suresh Krishnan> pekka savola: More work required before being publicized and published as BCP
[18:30:58] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Cannot establish usefulness without making this public and soliciting more participation.
[18:31:17] <Suresh Krishnan> Aaron: Will cause more work for WG chairs
[18:31:59] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott Bradner has a different take. He thinks this process empowers the WG chairs
[18:32:16] <Suresh Krishnan> and makes them aware what the hell is happening to their documents
[18:34:52] <Suresh Krishnan> <Dont know who>: The role of the WG chair is to co-ordinate the exchange between the IESG and the authors but not to be an intermediary
[18:35:35] <dthaler> (Dave Crocker i think)
[18:35:59] <Suresh Krishnan> Thx
[18:36:50] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: The process was opaque. It requires a learning curve for the organization as a whole. Not just more work for the WG chair
[18:37:49] <Suresh Krishnan> John Loughney: Require a "Dummies" guide for the process. WG chairs who send docs thru infrequently can easily forget
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[18:38:04] <Suresh Krishnan> Ensure consistency in the process to reduce delays
[18:38:31] <Suresh Krishnan> if things are randomly done it reduces willingness to work
[18:39:17] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: IESG is a smaller group and easier for people to catch up to
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[18:39:30] <Suresh Krishnan> the process does not scale to W chairs since there are too many of them
[18:40:17] <Suresh Krishnan> show of hands for WG chair willingness to participate
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[18:40:44] <Suresh Krishnan> nobody wants to keep out. Everyone wants in ;-)
[18:40:59] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[18:41:50] <Suresh Krishnan> tools team
[18:42:10] <Suresh Krishnan> http://ietf.levkowetz.com/team/tools
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[18:43:06] <Suresh Krishnan> taks
[18:43:10] <Suresh Krishnan> tasks
[18:43:32] <Suresh Krishnan> 1) Tool for ID submission for the secretariat
[18:43:49] <Suresh Krishnan> issue tracking tools etc.
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[18:44:30] <Suresh Krishnan> secretariat tools developers have not worked ti the ietf and need more direction/guidance
[18:45:02] <Suresh Krishnan> will use open source tools if possible and communicate IETF needs to the developers
[18:45:26] <Suresh Krishnan> storyboarding and prototyping are possible methods as well
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[18:45:52] <Suresh Krishnan> team will not do actual development but to communicate IETF needs to the developers
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[18:46:11] <Suresh Krishnan> ID submission tool to be ready by Aug 2004
[18:47:18] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott Bradner: How does the feedback process work for the tools? Mailing list or issue tracker
[18:48:35] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott Bradner: What is the required functionality of the ID submission tool? Comes from the secretariat and can be reviewed by the IETF
[18:49:37] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott: Use the tool for signing off on IPR(IPR working group). Need to ask for more comments before trying to implement anything
[18:50:07] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Tools could be used for ICAR review and the PROTO team work
[18:50:33] <Suresh Krishnan> IESG can certainly use a writeable version of the ID tracker
[18:51:10] <Suresh Krishnan> <Dont know who> Mailing list for tools comments is a closed list
[18:51:25] <Suresh Krishnan> tools for resolving WG meeting conflicts
[18:52:00] <Suresh Krishnan> (Scott says) Lot of commercial products do that
[18:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> <Suresh>I think it was Aaron
[18:53:45] <Suresh Krishnan> <Missed some info. will get back> Mailman work highest priority
[18:54:50] <Suresh Krishnan> Brian: Bad experience with sourceforge with Global grid forum
[18:55:19] <Suresh Krishnan> check out ggf.or. It is a nightmare
[18:55:33] <Suresh Krishnan> that was ggf.org
[18:56:10] <Suresh Krishnan> there is a tool for tracking all the drafts in a WG
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[18:57:04] <Suresh Krishnan> the mailman comment was from Paul Hoffman
[18:58:11] <Suresh Krishnan> Is the "team" concept a formalizable mechanism. It does not exist in IETF lingo
[18:58:54] <Suresh Krishnan> Writing down rules would be a mistake. Because teams have varied functions
[18:59:41] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Some level of formalization is needed. e.g. look for teams from the IETF web site, phone conferencing facilities ...
[19:00:48] <Suresh Krishnan> <DKW> When to use team vs WG, team vs ar BOF etc.... A team is not legitimate. It needs to be
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[19:01:20] <Suresh Krishnan> Melinda/Belinda?
[19:01:34] <Suresh Krishnan> Brian: Review the IESG charter
[19:02:27] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott: FWIW. The IESGs resposibility if to work with the secretariat to ensure efficient operation of the IETF. They can use whatever means necessary
[19:03:04] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Someone objected to form the edu team
[19:03:49] <Suresh Krishnan> teams with charters allow more freedom from the IESG for the team
[19:04:43] <Suresh Krishnan> <DKW> I agree with Brian about adding another sentence to the IESG charter to legitimize teams
[19:06:50] <Suresh Krishnan> <DKW>Teams either needs to be formal or informal but not both
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[19:07:30] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Does any group of people who wants funding ask for money from the IESG
[19:07:48] <Suresh Krishnan> <DKW> This should come from the IETF chairs' discretionary fund
[19:10:30] <Suresh Krishnan> <Patrice?>: We require some formalization, time limits, oversight etc...
[19:11:18] <Suresh Krishnan> Scott: Lists and web pages are good. If it is within the IESGs responsibilites the teams should go on.
[19:11:46] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
[19:11:53] <Suresh Krishnan> three alternatives
[19:11:57] <Suresh Krishnan> -> do nothing
[19:12:03] <Suresh Krishnan> -> document that they exists
[19:12:16] <Suresh Krishnan> -> document the procedure to create a team
[19:12:46] <Suresh Krishnan> avri: choices not complete
[19:13:50] <Suresh Krishnan> Aaron: Wants to clarify second choice.
[19:14:53] <Suresh Krishnan> results 4-35-18
[19:15:22] <Suresh Krishnan> strong consensus is that teams should be documented with a hint of formalization
[19:15:38] <Suresh Krishnan> ---
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[19:16:54] <Suresh Krishnan> Margaret: Does not want to obscure names
[19:17:27] <Suresh Krishnan> David Partain: Agrees with Margaret. Needs full unobscured FTP archives
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[19:17:57] <Suresh Krishnan> will do nothing with the ftp
[19:18:10] <Suresh Krishnan> The person I missed was Barbara Jennings
[19:18:27] <Suresh Krishnan> The tool she talked about was PHTML at drupal.org
[19:19:11] <Suresh Krishnan> It is open source web based tool that provides calendar/e-mail/collaboration ...
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