Tuesday, March 22, 2022< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

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[08:57:57] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_359> Hi everybody!
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[08:59:13] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> And a good morning to you too :-)
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[09:00:10] <Jan Romanowski_web_613> Good morning :)
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[09:02:07] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> In the meantime, does anyone know what the coloured blobs in the users' list mean?
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[09:02:49] <Colin Perkins_web_669>
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[09:03:08] <Colin Perkins_web_669> The indicate chairs, IESG members, etc.
[09:03:32] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Ah... post-nominal blobs :-)  TY
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[09:07:35] <David Oliver_web_306> ICT means ... ?
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[09:09:32] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> ICT (Information and Communications Technology)
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[09:09:58] <David Oliver_web_306> @vesna thanks
[09:11:26] <Jane Coffin_web_423> The colored blobs relate to characteristics for some of the speakers.  Whether you are part of IRTF, co-chairs, IAB, languages, etc.
[09:12:52] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_359> One thing to do is better software, a more efficient one (software industry takes all the resources, we need to change this)
[09:13:42] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_359> Please: put the link here. Thanks
[09:13:58] <John C Klensin> Now, if we really wanted to waste energy and inject a huge amount of hot air into the atomosphere, we'd decide that the solution to problems was IPv7 and try to design it and get it deployed :-(   More efficiency in hardware and software would, of course, be a more realistic option.
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[09:14:36] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Link:
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[09:15:34] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @Leandro: please submit the same talk to , if you will
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[09:16:15] <Cullen Jennings_web_563> huge echo from the room for the remote people
[09:17:06] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> @Meetecho ^
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[09:17:10] <Meetecho> Looking into it
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[09:17:38] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> ty
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[09:18:47] <John C Klensin> @Meetecho: don't know if it is the system or the speaker, but the floor mic is overloading
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[09:18:56] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> com
[09:19:01] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Vesna is up after Michael in the queue
[09:19:08] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795>
[09:20:00] <Meetecho> John: we sent someone there to check the mixer
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[09:20:36] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> chairs, could you please summarise this comment?
[09:20:46] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> I couldn't hear.
[09:21:18] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Thank you, John, for noting the issues with mic.
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[09:22:22] <Meetecho> Is the audio better now?
[09:22:37] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Yes, very much so.  Thanks.
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[09:23:23] <John C Klensin> @Meetecho: seems to be; will know more then someone is using the floor mic
[09:23:47] <Meetecho> Ack, please do mention us if it's still bad
[09:24:48] <सचिन गर्ग_web_676> Are there any studies about any correlation between energy usage and network latency? That is, if connecting to a local data center takes less energy than connecting to one half the world away?
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[09:27:39] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_927> Networks devices takes energy, and probably taking content close to you is less expensive. But, what happens if all the caches are fulfilled in order to put "close" the content to everybody?
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[09:30:39] <सचिन गर्ग_web_676> Another thing is if "streaming" in real-time (ala Netflix) is more expensive in energy terms than simply downloading the movie and playing it locally at the desired speed? I mean, it does take some energy to throttle the playback of a movie that if one simply downloads it - many customers are connected at speeds that are vastly greater than the actual bandwidth required to stream ...
[09:31:22] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @Leandro, are you keeping this idea-board on also for later, after the meeting?
[09:31:41] <Leandro Navarro_web_883> Yes, indefinitely
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[09:32:38] <Jane Coffin_web_423> There is a nice juxtaposition between the last presentation and this one from Michuki.  There are many humans working on local municipal networks and CNs who also are looking at sustainable/renewable energy, low-bandwidth monitoring of systems
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[09:35:21] <John C Klensin> A different question might use this meeting as an example.  Suppose there were no pandemic or related factors and everyone participating had flown in or arrived by some only slightly more efficient ground transport rather than most participants being remote and operating over the energy-consuming network.  While the network could certainly be made more efficient, my guess is that the comparative energy-use and carbon costs of travel and in-person participation are vastly higher.   Does that imply we might not be asking the right question?
[09:39:07] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> A wise man once said that ecology without accurate figures is no better than religion.
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[09:39:19] <Jan Romanowski_web_613> @John there are a lot of different sectors that are consuming high amount of  the energy, but we can't handle and change them all. I assume that while we are in the "Internet community" we are asking questions about the Internet consumption itself, and how we can affect it.
[09:40:16] <Leandro Navarro_web_883> Yes, and that is why I brought the numbers from ITU L.1470 specific for the ICT industry.
[09:40:59] <Leandro Navarro_web_883> Probably, the climate change requires all sectors to change trend, ours in about the Internet
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[09:42:17] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Ack.  My comment was in reaction to John's: we computer scientists know that our intuitions our often wrong, and that we should not start optimising before spending some time profiling in order to find out where the time goes.  Same goes for ecology: there's not much sense speculating about what's worth optimising, we need accurate profiles of where the CO₂/SiO₂/NO₂ or whatever other compound we're concerned about is coming from.
[09:42:37] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Community ask - do folks know of open source billing solutions that could help community nets, muni nets, and other localized networks with solutions.
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[09:46:09] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> ty
[09:46:37] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @John, about conferences: work from 2019: "ACM's SIGPLAN "Engaging with Climate Change"
"a clear responsibility to understand and explore ways of reducing the costs of its conference-focused approach to promoting exchange of ideas""
[09:48:18] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Interesting.
[09:48:32] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Could you please provide a pointer for the issues with optical networking in the US?
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[09:49:35] <Jane Coffin_web_423> @Michuki - how can folks find you who might have suggestions on open source billing solutions?
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[09:50:32] <John C Klensin> @Jan: But that is partially related to the cryptocurrency question asked earlier.   If the network is making only a tiny contribution to the climate change problem, then maybe it is not the right place to focus efforts.   Assorted folk tales and bad jokes about looking for lost objects under lampposts and performing dances to keep tigers away come to mind.    If, in addition, the use of the network helps individuals and society avoid practices that are far worse contributors to climate change,  then maybe the Internet's contributions still constitute a net gain over the extended system.   I really don't mean to argue against anything being said here -- we should certainly make improvements if we can and my (mostly subjective) impression is that some of our subsystems and protocols are horribly inefficient from an energy consumption standpoint.   But I think it is important for us to look at whole systems and where efforts can product maximum impact rather than exclusively going on a search for low-lying fruit near when we happen to be.
[09:50:42] <John C Klensin> And, Vesna, yes, exactly.
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[09:51:03] <Rajeev RK_web_798> Just wanted to bring the N50 project ( ) to the groups attention. A multi stakeholder initiative that is trying to drive Digital literacy and connectivity to the remaining 50% of the worlds population. Currently in advanced stages of driving a pilot deployment in Zambia,
[09:51:32] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @Rajeev, thanks, I'll look it up!
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[09:51:41] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Answering my own question  - see Michuki's slide here.  Ping him if you have suggestions
[09:52:05] <Stephen McQuistin_web_562> @meetecho: slides have disappeared in-room
[09:52:26] <Meetecho> Coming
[09:53:01] <Meetecho> It's a wireless projector that sometimes loses connectivity
[09:55:02] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> @Jane could you please provide a pointer about the legislative issues with optical networking in 17 States that you mentioned?  It's interesting.
[09:56:57] <Jan Romanowski_web_613> @John I agree with you fully. We should have a wide look at the topic and really think on what could be improved, why and what impact will it have before taking actions.
[09:57:50] <Rajeev RK_web_798> @vesna The company I work for is part of the N50 initiative, in terms of deploying as part of the Zambian Pilot site, so I'm happy to answer any questions or even give a very brief overview if time permits us to take up non-agenda topics.
[10:00:47] <Rajeev RK_web_798> @leandro @jane Would this be appropriate to take up if there is time to spare after agenda items, as its directly describing a in-the-field digital connectivity and literacy project in Africa?
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[10:02:30] <John C Klensin> Ah.  Another interesting question from the discussion: Once upon a time, IETF meeting rooms were a tangle of wires with Ethernet cables available at nearly every seat.  Now, we are almost completely dependent on WiFi (projectors included).   Anyone have any numbers about relative energy and carbon impact of running radio versus wires?  Really need two sets of numbers, one assuming that the equipment and media are sunk costs and the other trying to estimate those costs a well, with or without various amortization assumptions.  And, of course, once one moves out of meeting rooms, the answers might be wildly different depending on things like population density and costs of running wires or fiber.
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[10:04:49] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_927> I have no numbers, but wireless technology is more advanced that one of the ehternet. Then, considering that mobile hardware should be efficient, I guess we already gain on wifi.
[10:05:06] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_927> For the short range.
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[10:05:46] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_927> E.G., the 3G or 4G can work with -100 dBm of power...
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[10:07:01] <Jane Coffin_web_423> @Rajeev - thank you.  let us see how much time we have
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[10:10:16] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Most IXPs do not peer with each other from my experience
[10:11:07] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Link Jane asked for:
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[10:11:54] <Ties de Kock_web_823> @meetecho: The projector disconnected again
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[10:12:02] <Meetecho> Yep, we've seen it and heading there
[10:12:26] <Ties de Kock_web_823> :+1:, just realised you can see that on camera
[10:12:40] <Meetecho> We do appreciate the mention, though, as we may miss it! Thanks!
[10:13:01] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795>
[10:13:07] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Thank you, Vesna!
[10:13:22] <John C Klensin> "More advanced" in what way?  Certainly more recent.  And extrapolating from 3G or 4G to WiFi may or may not work.... I just don't know.   Extrapolating from telephone experience --which might or might not be reasonable-- amortization time for copper or fiber-based facilities is far better than for, e.g., cellular services where GSM-> 3G -> 4G -> 5G transitions imply pressure for equipment replacement every few years.
[10:14:57] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Does anyone know whether in Ukraine BGP fell back to alternative routes automatically, or whether manual intervention (e.g. to remove filters) was typically required?
[10:14:57] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_927> Sorry John, I just written a short statement and I agree the need to discuss largely.
[10:15:41] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Julius, I will pass on that question to my colleagues -- and maybe even get back to you during this session!
[10:16:06] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @Rajeev: look what we see for India:
[10:16:20] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795>
[10:16:21] <John C Klensin> Remember too that it is generally possible to physically secure a star architecture wired network with  while providing equivalent levels of privacy protection, etc., to a wireless one require computationally intensive encryption mechanisms.
[10:16:23] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Thanks.  I'm <>
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[10:16:33] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> I'm
[10:16:36] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795>
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[10:18:05] <Rajeev RK_web_798> @vesna Thanks for the links, will look at them in detail. You might also be interested to know that the government is conducting a very detailed consultation paper on how to improve IXP connectivity, both ISP->IX and IX<->IX connectivity. Might give some ideas on how that may evolve.
[10:18:29] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Announcement 1: April 11-12 , meeting in Ljubljana (& online) about South Eastern Europe network operators --
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[10:20:16] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> RIPE announcement 2: today, online session at 14:00 CET: "Open Discussion on Internet Sanctions and Connectivity"
[10:20:18] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Thank you, Mallory
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[10:20:46] <Mallory Knodel_web_429> Hey Dmitri, we can hear you
[10:20:56] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Upcoming RIPE meeting : , 16-20. May, Berlin & online
[10:21:53] <Rajeev RK_web_798> Maybe @leandro should stop sharing his screen before granting, to allow it to take effect
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[10:25:29] <Rajeev RK_web_798> @vesna your cat is stealing eyeballs even....:joy:
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[10:30:45] <Rajeev RK_web_798> @dmitri These quts are real life heroes, maintaining connectivity... reminds me of
[10:31:14] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> I was thinking of the same.
[10:31:35] <John C Klensin> Yes.
[10:35:54] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @Dmitry, we've published this for "end users" -> please add your services in the comments, or let me know if it's OK if I add it:
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[10:39:34] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> As usual, the DNS is the weak link :-/
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[10:40:48] <Ties de Kock_web_823> @Juliusz: Hypothetically you could set a high TTL I guess?
[10:41:25] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Not if the client machines are rebooted and loose their local cache.
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[10:42:09] <Ties de Kock_web_823> True. Was more thinking about the recursive resolver caching.
My phone/laptop resolves DNS again every time I switch wifi networks. iirc...
[10:43:20] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> We must assume that the Russian ISPs will comply with the Russian legislation, so the local machine is the only thing you can trust (somewhat).
[10:44:26] <Ties de Kock_web_823> :+1:
[10:44:51] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> I was looking for the link - here it is:
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[10:46:16] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> @julius, here's one analysis :
[10:46:50] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> and then there's OONI:
[10:47:42] <Rajeev RK_web_798> Wireguard is UDP based, and it's becoming quite popular as a VPN Breakout
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[10:48:35] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Good point.  The same block is also breaking WebRTC.
[10:49:05] <John C Klensin> It wouldn't take much to modify a DNS implementation to keep caches in non-volatile storage and to ignore TTLs if refresh as impossible (on the theory that old data are beter than no data)   That would put a big premium on something else that has many advantages but that has gotten almost no traction: edge routers/modems/ access points with local DNS caching server capability rather than relying primiarly on ISP-run forwarders.
[10:49:10] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Thanks to the speakers and the chairs!
[10:49:14] <Leandro Navarro_web_883>
[10:49:29] <Jane Coffin_web_423> Dmitri - how can people contact you if they would like to?
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[10:50:48] <Dmitri Vitaliev_web_938> Hi its and
[10:50:53] <Katim Touray_web_786> Indeed, Jane! The presentations were very interesting and informative!
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[10:51:31] <Stuart Card_web_273> I was multithreading with computing-aware networking and found considerable intersection w/gaia esp. wrt energy.
[10:51:40] <Ties de Kock_web_823> I got a reply from someone coordinating at nog alliance.
They can be reached for offers/questions at They're currently setting up Logistics and local contacts. Especially anything wifi is very welcome
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[10:52:57] <Vesna Manojlović_web_795> Thank you, Ties!
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[10:53:51] <Katim Touray_web_786> Thanks to you all! Have a great day and please stay safe!
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[10:54:52] <Mallory Knodel_web_429> Thanks all!
[10:54:52] <Leandro Navarro_web_883>
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[10:54:54] <Juliusz Chroboczek_web_987> Thanks again!
[10:54:54] <Mallory Knodel_web_429> See you tomorrow
[10:54:57] <Michuki Mwangi_web_549> Thanks!
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[10:54:58] <Leandro Navarro_web_883> See you !
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[10:55:06] <Katim Touray_web_786> Bye!
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