Friday, July 30, 2021< ^ >
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[19:29:24] <Nigel Hickson_web_121> Thank you Mary-Jane.
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[19:37:55] <John C Klensin> @Colin: It seems to me that part of the answer to your question is that the IETF should be thinking more deeply about protocols that are robust enough to work over marginal networks, to recover or adapt well to intermittent connections, etc.  Or course, those were early design goals for the network, but maybe the IETf sometimes loses sogjt pf tjat becasie a;,pst a;; pf attention to that because
[19:38:29] <Jane Coffin_web_152> That is a great point John
[19:38:31] <John C Klensin> almost all of "us" have high speeed, high-reliability connections.
[19:39:44] <Colin Perkins_web_653> @John: absolutely – one of the things I hope this RG does, is help to make connections and expose these issues, so we don't forget these goals
[19:40:49] <Jared Mauch_web_110> @jck - i only have one because i spent ~~$200k to get it at my house
[19:41:20] <Nigel Hickson_web_121> @John, agree indeed.  We should remember we started with dial-up.
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[19:42:15] <John C Klensin> @Nigel And a 56Kpbs backbone :-(\
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[19:45:30] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> Sorry.....CDN = ?
[19:45:40] <Jared Mauch_web_110> Content Delivery Network
[19:45:53] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> @Jared: Thanks
[19:46:28] <John C Klensin> @Jared And I can remember paying for 120 km of DS0 leased line.  But we had those options and, apparently, could afford it.
[19:46:38] <Jared Mauch_web_110> eg: at Akamai we run a large backbone to connect our CDN nodes together to better manage our capacity and costs
[19:48:07] <John C Klensin> My greater concern is that we try to build networks to provide performance, efficiency, and privacy for networks with great quality (even if barey affordable) without paying enough attention to being sure that the fallbacks for worse networks or conditions are clearly defined, work, and can be fallen over to fairly easily.
[19:48:36] <John C Klensin> barely affordable
[19:48:57] <Jared Mauch_web_110> We built our own network as the [public] networks could no longer support us in reality.  They are not operating in our business interests and can't maintain interconnection capacity to meet our needs.
[19:49:51] <John C Klensin> And, except for budget, that probably makes you part of the community I'm concerned about.
[19:50:03] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> @Jared moving away from the internet to a larger corporate network?
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[19:50:46] <Jared Mauch_web_110> Yes, the number of people that moved their servers to "the cloud" and are paying for "cloud onramp" services really changes who and how we define the big-i Internet
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[19:51:46] <Jeffrey Yasskin_web_196> This talk turns into a reimagining of the entire funding model of the internet, right? I've never really understood how the backbone companies are funded or why peering payments work the way they do, but this argues that CDNs should entirely replace them, with their funding model of charging content providers.
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[19:52:27] <Jamey Sharp_web_382> That's an interesting observation, Jeffrey...
[19:52:29] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> I keep waiting for fibre-to-the-prem at my house, but my brother, in the same town,  can't get internet access. That kind of disparity is my concern
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[19:52:56] <Jared Mauch_web_110> I'm really interested to see if the CDN partners that Apple has for their VPN/proxy service have more capacity to go between network endpoints than the backbones, and are on cost-neutral or paid-for links, and may have better performance as a result.
[19:53:20] <Jared Mauch_web_110> @Rob - i can tell you all about the costs and challenges (in the US at least)
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[19:54:05] <Jane Coffin_web_152> Rob - there still is a lot of redlining going on in the US.  Which I thought was a thing of the past.  The disparity in some places where "lines" are drawn blows my mind.  At the same time, we have a lot of entities pushing back on Muni and community nets
[19:54:07] <Mary-Jane Sule_web_275> Thank you Nigel
[19:54:36] <Jamey Sharp_web_382> I think this talk might also be an argument that named-data networking or similar really should be a feature of the underlying network
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[19:57:48] <Mwende Njiraini_web_912> Interesting...Kenya currently considering community networks the challenge is funding but there is a great cooperative culture in Kenya
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[20:00:36] <Avri Doria_web_397> most interesting and thought provoking presentation i have heard this week.
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[20:01:17] <Jared Mauch_web_110> yes, as a CDN  ($dayjob) we have larger backbone than many of the so-called big carriers
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[20:02:02] <Nigel Hickson_web_121> +1 Avri; all very constructive.
[20:02:46] <Jared Mauch_web_110> I negotiated the interconnection agreement btw CF <-> AKAMAI :-).
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[20:04:46] <Marwan Fayed_web_205> @jeffrey - it's an interesting observation. (Thanks for making it.)
[20:10:23] <Marwan Fayed_web_205> And everyone else, I am honoured to have "provoked thoughts", whichever way opinions might land.
[20:11:37] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> So, basically, they're taking a poll???
[20:11:48] <Jamey Sharp_web_382> booo
[20:11:59] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> I'm a can tell
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[20:12:13] <Jamey Sharp_web_382> :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:
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[20:20:42] <Jared Mauch_web_110> pole construction can run $30k/mi
[20:20:52] <Jared Mauch_web_110> (after make ready)
[20:22:00] <Jared Mauch_web_110> burying a line to a home is $1/ft+
[20:22:25] <Jared Mauch_web_110> the routers are cheap compared to the labor
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[20:24:21] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> I was just thinking about 250000 routers
[20:24:28] <John Levine_web_520> If you have ever stuck a shovel in the ground in Vermont, you know why it's all on poles
[20:24:57] <Jared Mauch_web_110> @rob so ~~50% of vermont? :-)
[20:25:21] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> @Jared Maybe they can send me one.
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[20:33:49] <Colin Perkins_web_653> This is RFC 7962?
[20:34:46] <Leandro Navarro_web_172> Yes, Update of RFC 7962 "Alternative Network Deployments..." August 2016
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[20:39:36] <Jane Coffin_web_152> Or Perma frost for one of our partners ; )
[20:39:47] <Jared Mauch_web_110> 0.5" down is enough to protect from almost everything
[20:40:14] <Jared Mauch_web_110> squirrels are the biggest risk
[20:40:54] <Jared Mauch_web_110> i've had fiber hit by chainsaw, it's been fine.. if it's above ground it's most at risk
[20:41:02] <Rob Hamilton_web_823> Oh my....does a bear do fibre in the woods?
[20:41:27] <Jared Mauch_web_110> i had an animal burrow a hole through a cable, but it's super rare
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[20:42:19] <Jared Mauch_web_110> one of my customers, we have fiber to the cows for cattle management
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[20:44:54] <Marwan Fayed_web_205> Thank you, All.
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[20:45:00] <Jamey Sharp_web_382> great talks, thanks all!
[20:45:00] <Colin Perkins_web_653> Thanks – nice talks, all!
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[20:45:14] <John C Klensin> thanks.  Interesting and helpful
[20:45:20] <Mary-Jane Sule_web_275> Thank you all
[20:45:23] <Ray Pelletier_web_247> cya
[20:45:24] <Avri Doria_web_610> bye. good mtg.
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