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Friday, March 12, 2021< ^ >
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[14:31:37] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> yes
[14:31:40] <Mike English_web_983> yes, we can hear
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[14:43:30] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> I don't know if the energy reduction sould taken separetly form other fields, like bitcoin for example. Besides, community networks will spends small amounts of energy.
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[14:44:07] <Avri Doria_web_733> i think the balance of environment challenge and the need to spread internet access to all is an important topic and one worth considering. GAIA seems a good place to do so to me.
[14:45:31] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> Just to keep in mind that we can think in doing low energy netorks, but  the a large portion of the energy comsuption is not in community networks. Tanks.
[14:45:41] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> +1 open hardware as well
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[14:46:03] <Avri Doria_web_733> The environmental impact of just about everything we do should be inc;uded as a consideration for exploration.
[14:46:25] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> +1 @avri
[14:46:51] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> +1 to Avri - because 'green datacenters' that slurp up all renewable energy supply have a negative net effect.
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[14:47:36] <Avri Doria_web_733> True the community networks are not the main cause of the environment challenge, but every bit helps/hurts and it does make sense to pay attention at all levels.
[14:47:41] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> @Niels it is not just to use renewable energy, but also on the amount of heat that they produce.
[14:47:52] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> +100
[14:48:16] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> @avri sure!
[14:50:21] <सचिन गर्ग_web_504> Having a problem with the mic. Will get back.
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[14:52:29] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> Space lasers ?
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[14:54:37] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> I would be very interested to see a comparison between streaming services and peer2peer file sharing
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[14:55:20] <Avri Doria_web_733> we can certainly analyze implementations in terms of environmental impact.
[14:55:47] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> +1 @niels
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[14:57:28] <Mike English_web_983> On the topic of sustainability and environmental impact is not just the energy consumption of operating Internet-connected devices and infrastructure, but the energy consumption for manufacturing and shipping those devices. This is sometimes called "embodied energy."
[14:57:35] <Avri Doria_web_733> and as more and more documentation is produced on how to do build a local network, awareness of the environmental impact of the design seems useful.
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[14:59:55] <Mike English_web_983> So, a possible consideration here might be whether adoption of protocols requires the replacement of hardware or not. Need to analyze impact of complete lifecycles.
[15:00:48] <Mike English_web_983> +1 Vint. DTN is very interesting for terrestrial applications, not just space. :)
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[15:00:54] <Mike English_web_983> store and forward
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[15:05:14] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> The complete analysis of the carbon footprint should be done and it is very complicated.
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[15:09:03] <सचिन गर्ग_web_186> I think Vint shouldn't be asked to shut up :(
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[15:10:15] <Mike English_web_983> @J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin Yes, nontrivial to sat the least, and I am no expert in that area. But I think it's important that we not stop at operating energy because that is not a complete picture of impact.
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[15:12:38] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> +1 @mike
[15:13:36] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> Excellent points - these are all sociotechnical problems, that are actually bad for privacy due to proprietary and leaky softkeyboards
[15:15:05] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> I know John has worked for a long time on this - is there a document that documents the biggest barriers?
[15:16:42] <Jonathan Morton_web_168> many of us simply cannot *read* anything but our mother script, eg. the Latin alphabet
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[15:17:49] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> The problem here is to whom people wants to communicate.
[15:17:52] <Jonathan Morton_web_168> comprehending what is necessary to quickly and accurately input Chinese or Japanese (or many other languages) may be difficult, let alone actually solving that problem
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[15:19:05] <Lim May-Ann_web_661> it's not just translation, but try adding in right-to-left scripts
[15:19:39] <Lim May-Ann_web_661> imagine email addresses as com.gmail@someone
[15:19:40] <Jonathan Morton_web_168> heck, even some languages written in Latin script are nigh-impossible to pronounce for the uninitiated in that particular language
[15:20:09] <Avri Doria_web_733> Jonathan, that is the same problem many people in the world have with dealing with ascii English. And there are efforts ongoing to try and resolve the issue with getting implementations and deployments that support the Multilanguage and multiscript capabilities.
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[15:22:11] <JcK> Yes, I was thinking about adding the additional complications of RTL scripts, especially when used in LTR environments or vice versa,,, but decided I was taking up two much time
[15:22:34] <Rodney Grimes_web_806> I feel we probably learn far more from our failures than we do from our successes.
[15:23:12] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> Topics are very large, e.g., Zero rating has a ton of problems and solutions, I think we have to start just a few of them.
[15:24:54] <JcK> And, of course, the assumption that names (or languages one does not understand written in scripts which one can read) can be dealt with phonetically is true only "often".  That is a major problem with scripts like Chinese but anyone who reads a language written in Latin script but where the language is very different from French-German-English or anything actually based on Latin, knows the problem even with English.
[15:25:06] <Lim May-Ann_web_661> i feel we could be missing a solution to ALSO solve the problem of spam
what if we put an additional layer of addressing for email (think IPv4 to IPv6 upgrading) where current email addresses are simply masks for "real" email addresses... sort of forcing the current level of emails to become a pseudonymized identifier
(i'm not a network engineer, sorry if this is silly)
[15:25:11] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> I would also be very interested to see a comparison between different 5G openstacks and how they could be used for community infrastructure
[15:25:35] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> (and experience with 4G as well ofc)
[15:25:47] <Jonathan Morton_web_168> @JcK: French is hard enough as it is
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[15:26:38] <JcK> @Lim May-Ann: please get in touch with me offline (john-ietf@jck.com) and let's talk about that.  I don't think it would work as you stated it, but some variations might.   And, incidentally, you have just identified one of the hard problems with non-ASCII email local parts.
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[15:27:45] <Rodney Grimes_web_806> I saw little debate, and lots of simple agreement.
[15:27:51] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> RFC7962 indeed made an taxonoymy, a precise description of a particular case would be excellent
[15:27:54] <J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin_web_321> bye!
[15:27:57] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> thanks all!
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[15:28:04] <Lim May-Ann_web_661> bye!
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[15:28:21] <JcK> Oh, I know.  But where it gets very exciting is where Latin script (or for that matter, Cyrillic, Arabic, Han, and other scripts) have been imposed on or adopted by radically different languages and pronunciation systems.
[15:28:38] <Niels ten Oever_web_899> :)
[15:28:51] <Rodney Grimes_web_806> We done even have to do blue sheets anymore!
[15:28:58] <Jonathan Morton_web_168> Chinese, Japanese Korean all used Han at times
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[15:30:57] <JcK> @Jonathan: Of course.  And still do although use in Korean is dropping.  However... (and that is followed by a long explanation neither of us have time for)
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