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Wednesday, November 10, 2021< ^ >
meetecho-alexamirante has set the subject to: emailcore @ IETF 111
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[11:25:19] Meetecho joins the room
[11:25:54] Meetecho has set the subject to: emailcore @ IETF 112
[11:45:08] Alessandro Amirante_web_558 joins the room
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[11:54:21] <Todd Herr_web_789> Still need a volunteer for note-taking, if anyone is so inclined. I'll be flying solo on chairing the session.
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[11:57:11] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> sure
[11:57:21] <Todd Herr_web_789> Thank you, Bron
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[12:04:20] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Anybody think there's anything else?
[12:04:30] Ned Freed_web_143 joins the room
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[12:05:25] <Pete Resnick_web_715> My plan is to send out a new version in the next week or so and then go into IDLE mode.
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[12:07:27] <Ned Freed_web_143> Hmm. I thought the idea was to remove discussion, not turn it into prohibititions.
[12:08:07] <Ned Freed_web_143> You're implementing (b), not (a).
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[12:08:31] <John C Klensin> My recollection matches Ned's, actually
[12:09:02] <Ned Freed_web_143> Just remove the discussion entirely.
[12:09:23] <Ned Freed_web_143> Why even have the historical comment?
[12:09:49] <John Levine_web_168> So you can parse ancient mail archives?
[12:10:51] <Eliot Lear_web_263> I SO wanted to do this in 1123.
[12:12:17] <Ned Freed_web_143> Exactly what Barry said. There needs to be one or maybe two places that discuss it.
[12:12:38] <Ned Freed_web_143> Getting rid of all the mentions everywhere cleans things up.
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[12:13:23] <Pete Resnick_web_715> We're not talking about mailboxes; this is in the SMTP command stream, right?
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[12:15:12] <Eliot Lear_web_263> Right
[12:20:07] <Ned Freed_web_143> That's more or less it.
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[12:20:52] <Ned Freed_web_143> My main goal is to try and get obsolete stuff out of the discussions to make them easier to follow. Backwards pointers are fine and encouraged.
[12:21:09] <Eliot Lear_web_263> I'm not going to stand on my head on this.  I prefer not referring to obsolete docs.
[12:21:23] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Yep, agreed Ned.
[12:21:51] <Pete Resnick_web_715> @Eliot: Informational reference only.
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[12:23:11] <Eliot Lear_web_263> What does the ABNF look like for this?  Is it simply gone?
[12:23:24] <Eliot Lear_web_263> And we're dropping a tombstone in the narrative?
[12:23:29] <Barry Leiba_web_103> Yes, gone.  Only in 821
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[12:23:32] <Pete Resnick_web_715> @Eliot: Correct.
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[12:23:47] <Eliot Lear_web_263> ok
[12:24:29] <Eliot Lear_web_263> I mean, realistically in these days, nobody's going to expect anyone to honor source routing, anyway...
[12:24:36] <Pete Resnick_web_715> The syntax does continue to exist in the obs- section of 5322bis, but that's because we chose to do the obs- dance in 5322bis and not dork with it.
[12:24:47] <Eliot Lear_web_263> ok
[12:25:39] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Yeah, all of this text gets to go.
[12:25:47] <John C Klensin> Just note that, while I expect people won't have trouble with it, 821 did not use ABNF.
[12:26:04] <Eliot Lear_web_263> So the expectation here in seeing a source route is a 500?
[12:27:03] <Ned Freed_web_143> As a practical matter, you're going to get a 5YZ from a lot of things already. No matter what we say here.
[12:27:36] <Eliot Lear_web_263> @Ned, maybe it's good to say that in the tombstone.
[12:27:37] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Treat it like a normal syntax error.
[12:27:55] <Ned Freed_web_143> @Eliot: Works for me.
[12:30:55] <John Levine_web_168> Gmail gives a 550 for source route
[12:31:02] <John Levine_web_168> thinks it's an invalid mailbox
[12:31:09] <Ned Freed_web_143> That seems like a fine example, but if you want the really important example it is that
[12:31:21] <Ned Freed_web_143> "foo"@example.com <-> foo@example.com
[12:32:32] <Wes Hardaker_web_291> many other specifications discuss comparisons after conversion to a canonical form
[12:34:23] <Ned Freed_web_143> What John K said. We have this issue that we have not specified a UTF-8 canonical form for local-parts.
[12:37:34] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> seen in a work slack today "in this case, silence is consent" - was about something easy to undo though :)
[12:37:36] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Already mentioned in 5322bis.
[12:39:07] <Ned Freed_web_143> This sort of reference to the AS seems OK to me.
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[12:39:13] <Pete Resnick_web_715> +1
[12:40:46] <Ned Freed_web_143> The really important one here is 8BITMIME.
[12:41:34] <Ned Freed_web_143> I'm fine with enhanced status codes and DSNs being a MUST, but I worry a little about NOTIFY=SUCCESS.
[12:42:15] <Ned Freed_web_143> Maybe we need to spin up a quick update to RFC 3461 deprecating support for NOTIFY=SUCCESS?
[12:42:28] <Ned Freed_web_143> Sorry, meant to say "required support".
[12:42:37] <John C Klensin> @Ned" ,me too.
[12:43:14] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> @Ned is that an offer to write or follow up on to make sure that happens?
[12:43:21] <Ned Freed_web_143> Yes it is.
[12:43:26] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> great
[12:43:30] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> I've noted such in the minutes :p
[12:43:41] <Ned Freed_web_143> I just put it on my to-do list.
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[12:44:34] <Ned Freed_web_143> The AS needs to say something about the security model that has emerged of using TLS for security.
[12:44:52] <Ned Freed_web_143> Hop by hop authentication, however.... pretty obscure.
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[12:45:42] <Ned Freed_web_143> I'd like to try an interim, FWIW.
[12:46:03] <Pete Resnick_web_715> I'm around.
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[12:46:34] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> I will NOT show up, probably.  Something something sleep something
[12:46:35] <Ned Freed_web_143> What John K. just said.
[12:47:07] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> but I'm not deeply involved here anyway, just showing up for awareness, to heckle, and to take notes
[12:47:20] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> apparently it's better than being in QUIC
[12:47:20] <Ned Freed_web_143> Note takers are always welcome.
[12:47:28] <Todd Herr_web_789> @Bron and your contributions are noted and appreciated
[12:47:31] <Barry Leiba_web_103> Suggested scope looks about right.
[12:47:45] <Ned Freed_web_143> @Barry: Agreed.
[12:49:33] <Ned Freed_web_143> I think SUBMIT has high rathole potential, but if it's unavoidable so be it.
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[12:50:24] <Ned Freed_web_143> I was going to try and put together something on the history of approaches to the large file problem.
[12:50:29] <Ned Freed_web_143> Is anyone still interesting in that/
[12:50:35] <Kenneth Murchison_web_899> As co-author of AS and employee of Bron, sync'ing with any large file draft won't be an issue
[12:50:39] <John C Klensin> We could always resurrect external message bodies "-(
[12:50:43] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Sounds like we dust off the LEMONADE specs again and people ignore them again. :-)
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[12:51:15] <Ned Freed_web_143> The thing I noticed is that people seem to be unaware of past attempts to do this.
[12:51:36] <Pete Resnick_web_715> s/this/just about anything
[12:51:50] <Ned Freed_web_143> @Pete: Fair point.
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[12:52:32] <John C Klensin> @Ned that was more or less what I meant by my snarky version.  I'm also concerned about how one guesses or figures out what is "too large".  SIZE is not quite right for this.
[12:52:56] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> yes, it's a big problem - both the "people ignore existing stuff"
[12:53:03] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> and the "existing stuff doesn't quite solve the problem"
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[12:53:25] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> but pulling out the existing bits that can be used along with the other parts is definitely worthwhile
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[12:53:56] <Pete Resnick_web_715> Generally I find that "doesn't quite solve the problem" is really "doesn't do it the way I would do it with current technology".
[12:54:26] <John C Klensin> Ack
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[12:54:42] <Ned Freed_web_143> Thanks. Great meeting!
[12:54:46] <Pete Resnick_web_715> +1: Good job Todd.
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[12:54:57] <Pete Resnick_web_715> I'm going to go retrieve coffee and then see you all in Gather.
[12:55:00] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> @Pete: there's no general solution for resuming upload for a large file, for example
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[12:55:05] <Bron Gondwana_web_515> yep - see you in gather!
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