IETF
EMAILCORE
emailcore@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 27, 2021< ^ >
Yoshiro Yoneya_ has set the subject to: emailcore @ IETF 110
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[21:29:08] <Alexey Melnikov_web_752> Any volunteers for taking notes>
[21:29:10] <Alexey Melnikov_web_752> ?
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[21:31:47] <Bron Gondwana_web_352> yeah, thanks
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[21:31:56] <Alexey Melnikov_web_752> Notes in https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-emailcore
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[21:33:14] <Ned Freed_web_940> Can that be made bigger?
[21:33:41] <Dave Crocker_web_899> The slide is too small to read.
[21:33:45] <Ned Freed_web_940> I'm sorry, I can't read what's on the screen!
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[21:34:18] <Wataru Ohgai_web_788> Full screen mode will be better
[21:35:30] <Carlos Silva_web_598> much better!!!
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[21:38:50] <Pete Resnick_web_976> I think you missed Viktor.
[21:39:14] <Todd Herr_web_610> noted. will make sure he's next
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[21:41:21] <Dave Crocker_web_899> so the abnf should be: trace = return *(received / optional-field)
[21:42:41] <Ned Freed_web_940> Return-path also needs to be optional so: trace = [return] *(received/optional-field)
[21:44:39] <Ned Freed_web_940> Agree with Barry
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[21:46:48] <Ned Freed_web_940> Pete: Very clever: Encourage the order you want while allowing the historical order.
[21:47:10] <Dave Crocker_web_899> when ordering isn't being dictated, i think the abnf needs to do something like: set = *(set-choices)set-choice = choice1 / choice2 / choice3 / ...
[21:47:35] <Dave Crocker_web_899> draft lost newline before set-choice =
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[21:50:27] <Ned Freed_web_940> I'm confused where is the "gateway" in the proposed text.
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[21:52:35] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Viktor: I lied, or more to the point I can't count parentheses. Resent-* is not syntactically allowed after the rest of the headers. Should that be something that we address? (Having them at the bottom loses semantics, which isn't a great idea.)
[21:52:42] <Ned Freed_web_940> These seem fine changes to me.
[21:52:54] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Ned: +1
[21:53:37] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_944> Sorry, it wasn't Postfix, it's Apple's Mail client that puts them at the bottom.  Mutt gets it right..
[21:54:04] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_944> The "Resent-" headers are added by MUAs of course, not MTAs.
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[21:54:41] <Pete Resnick_web_976> If I am an MUA resending an already resent message, where ought I add them?
[21:54:41] <Dave Crocker_web_899> When a spec says something should not be done, why is that part of the spec retained?
[21:55:02] <Dave Crocker_web_899> Rephrase: when it says that a section of the protocol should not be done.
[21:55:18] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_944> Mutt adds Resent- headers at the top as though they're trace headers...
[21:55:31] <John L> That’s typical
[21:55:36] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Existing text seems fine to me.
[21:55:59] <Ned Freed_web_940> To discourage known bad actors. Of course such text creates a temporal dependency. That's the tradeoff.
[21:56:02] <Dave Crocker_web_899> I don't recall seeing any serious claims that the current limits are causing serious problems.
[21:56:08] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_215> Text is fine
[21:56:17] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_944> Apple's Mail.app then shows "Resent-From" and "Resent-To" as a list, but when resending again, it drops all previous copies, and makes a new one at the bottom.
[21:57:19] <Ned Freed_web_940> The 64 character limits on local-part is a real issue for encapsulation schemes.
[21:57:26] <Ned Freed_web_940> But it's too late to change.
[21:57:30] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Ned: indeed.
[21:57:35] <Pete Resnick_web_976> @Viktor: At the top makes sense: I can resend, prepend those resent-* fields, it goes through the transport, prepend trace, resend again, prepend more resent-*, etc. It gives me some (not completely reliable) information.
[21:58:03] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Deleting the old ones is bad form.
[21:58:07] <John L> @ned: surprising we didn’t change it in the X.400 era but it’s too late now
[21:58:21] <Ned Freed_web_940> @pete: I remember Marshall Rose schooling me on exactly that point ~~1990.
[21:58:38] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Alexey: +1
[21:58:41] <Dave Crocker_web_899> drop: +1
[21:59:00] <Ned Freed_web_940> @John L: The core standards weren't open for changes then. That's the only reason why we didn't.
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[22:00:14] <Ned Freed_web_940> Explaining to an X.400 compliance check person why an X.400 address would not fit into an RFC822 address was always fun.
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[22:01:44] <John L> I’d do specification required or maybe FCFS
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[22:03:09] <Barry Leiba_web_686> We've successfully used "FCFS with specification strongly encouraged."
[22:03:28] <Ned Freed_web_940> @barry: Works for me.
[22:03:43] <Ned Freed_web_940> Agree with Dave.
[22:04:21] <Ned Freed_web_940> John is of course correct as well.
[22:05:02] <Ned Freed_web_940> Works for me.
[22:05:28] <Ned Freed_web_940> This may stretch the charter a bit but I think we're still in scope since it's policy not techincal.
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[22:07:26] <Dave Crocker_web_899> Drop first sentence, per Todd's observation.
[22:08:07] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_215> +1
[22:08:23] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_215> to Daves
[22:08:33] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Folks, please wait a second or two after unmuting before speaking. The cost of using rtcweb. :-/
[22:08:40] <John C Klensin> The editor will try to fix this-- watch for next draft
[22:09:56] <Barry Leiba_web_686> I like this change.
[22:09:56] <Dave Crocker_web_899> +1 to replacement text.
[22:11:02] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Ned's proposal is fine too.
[22:11:29] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Not worth doing what Viktor suggests.
[22:11:55] <Barry Leiba_web_686> Definitely for the AS
[22:12:01] <Pete Resnick_web_976> I like Ned's proposal, because this is all about what the server might want to do internally, not on the wire, in some sense.
[22:12:20] <Barry Leiba_web_686> After Viktor's comment I'm more inclined toward Ned.
[22:12:30] <Alexey Melnikov_web_752> Ned suggestion (for posterity): move the MAY sentence to A/S as well.
[22:13:36] <Dave Crocker_web_899> @barry, fair point & suggestion.
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[22:14:26] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Informational pointer to the A/S only, I presume?
[22:14:41] <Dave Crocker_web_899> The AS points to the protocol.  The protocol should NOT point to the AS, since that then creates circular references and arguably a kind of layer violation.
[22:14:53] <Barry Leiba_web_686> I agree with Dave
[22:15:36] <Barry Leiba_web_686> We can easily get wrapped around axles on the AS; we should not make 5321bis normatively dependent on it.
[22:16:09] <Dave Crocker_web_899> There are complex and varying operational criteria that server (and client) SMTP operators use.  The protocol spec is not the place to try to cover that.
[22:17:13] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Mic distorted.
[22:17:22] <Dave Crocker_web_899> probably over-driving the mic
[22:17:30] <Pete Resnick_web_976> yep.
[22:17:35] <Pete Resnick_web_976> better now.
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[22:20:28] <Ned Freed_web_940> Shortform names are just too deeply embedded in the enterprise.
[22:20:45] <John C Klensin> Concur with John L
[22:20:54] <Ned Freed_web_940> I don't want to say that through - best not give people ideas!!!!
[22:21:07] <Pete Resnick_web_976> "Not interoperable" is equivalent to "MUST NOT", isn't it?
[22:21:20] <John Levine_web_389> The Czechoslovak problem
[22:21:41] <Ned Freed_web_940> John L: Don't know the reference?
[22:21:46] <John Levine_web_389> .CS
[22:21:53] <Ned Freed_web_940> Ah. Got it.
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[22:22:33] <John C Klensin> Agree with Dave.. .but "terrorize" would be better than "scare"
[22:22:33] <Ned Freed_web_940> AS says "Boo!"
[22:23:21] <Dave Crocker_web_899> I have less faith in the permanence of an ICANN policy (or contract) than John does.  Besides, as I suggested, the goal of the text is to scare folk about this.
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[22:23:31] <Dave Crocker_web_899> @ned, yup.
[22:23:36] <John Levine_web_389> It's fine to say it doesn't work
[22:24:27] <John Levine_web_389> the demand is for A/AAAA for fake web keywords
[22:25:14] <Ned Freed_web_940> Re: Registry - OK to wait, but just FYI, I'll be out next week due to medical stuff.
[22:25:50] <Alexey Melnikov_web_752> Ned: I will followup tomorrow
[22:26:02] <Ned Freed_web_940> OK.
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[22:26:19] <Bron Gondwana_web_352> Thanks chairs
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[22:26:21] <Pete Resnick_web_976> Good luck Ned.
[22:26:22] <John C Klensin> Thanks for the five minutes... And thanks to everyone
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[22:26:26] <Ned Freed_web_940> Yes, good progress made. Let's keep up the momemtum.
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[22:26:34] <Rolf Sonneveld_web_215> thx
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