[01:41:21] Dürst joins the room [03:00:21] abelyang joins the room [03:00:39] abelyang leaves the room [03:22:18] Dürst leaves the room [04:52:03] Ned Freed leaves the room [04:52:56] Ned Freed joins the room [04:53:23] Ned Freed leaves the room [05:21:45] shawnsteele007 joins the room [05:32:42] Dürst joins the room [05:41:06] stpeter joins the room [05:46:21] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed [05:46:26] stpeter joins the room [06:13:49] Dürst leaves the room [06:16:01] Ned Freed joins the room [06:16:19] abelyang joins the room [06:36:01] joseph.yee joins the room [06:43:46] Dürst joins the room [06:49:21] sm joins the room [06:57:13] yone joins the room [06:58:28] chriswaigl joins the room [06:59:31] sean.s.shen joins the room [06:59:47] cary.karp joins the room [07:00:21] cary.karp leaves the room [07:00:49] cary joins the room [07:01:08] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) joins the room [07:01:19] bluesheet passing [07:01:23] Klensin joins the room [07:02:06] meeting will start soon [07:02:16] Jim Galvin joins the room [07:05:25] Will the webex thing work? [07:06:17] barryleiba joins the room [07:06:19] meeting start now [07:06:29] Joseph is speaking [07:06:45] John (co-chair) is on skype [07:07:23] agenda bashing [07:07:39] stpeter is tracking the EAI session via jabber [07:07:49] ywang830 joins the room [07:07:55] agenda bashing finish [07:08:41] resnick joins the room [07:09:03] i am not sure whether webex thing is working [07:09:16] Webex says "not started" [07:09:19] "overall status update" [07:10:11] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/slides/eai-0.pdf [07:10:12] Shinta joins the room [07:10:21] Joseph hasn't been able to start it successfully. Since the slides are up, I suggest we just give up on WebEx and move on, rather than wasting time on it. [07:11:14] fujiwara joins the room [07:12:44] If folks in Jabber need something said at the mic, please start your message "mic:". [07:12:59] john is speaking [07:13:10] Randall Gellens joins the room [07:13:28] Agree with John regarding participation [07:14:32] sean.s.shen leaves the room [07:14:58] sean.s.shen joins the room [07:17:02] Randall Gellens leaves the room [07:17:26] Just so this makes it into the log: draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis [07:18:02] Also for the record: This is not a WG work item. [07:18:54] - consensus report - Adopt parameter for MAIL FROM - Adopt parameter for EXPR/VRFY - No new terms for UTF-8, ASCII, non-ASCII (see draft-hoffmanrfc3536bis if that is useful) - Keep message/global and nested encoding - Adopt new ABNF proposed by Dave Crocker and revise from there - (more details on new ABNF later) [07:19:31] Randall Gellens joins the room [07:20:03] Mic: Do we need to cover NOTARY extension interactions in this document? [07:20:13] has someone read draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08 [07:20:23] a few hands are raised [07:20:53] I've reviewed it. [07:20:56] the hands raised were just the usual suspects, which I'll admit did not include me. :-( [07:21:45] In particular the ORCPT parameter [07:22:32] I'm saying that since this is the SMTP spec, should we cover other SMTP issues in it. [07:22:38] Ned: This is 5337bis, yes? [07:22:49] Alexey will be at the mic momentarily. [07:23:13] alexey is speaking [07:23:22] I'm aware that 5337 is DSN/MDN. [07:23:30] OK, I hope this isn't confusing. [07:23:58] tony.l.hansen joins the room [07:24:06] john.levine joins the room [07:24:16] overflow.kr joins the room [07:24:22] I'll take this to the list. [07:24:31] overflow.kr leaves the room [07:25:12] joseph suggest we need more review on these documents [07:26:15] now discuss the header-bis documents [07:26:28] alexey.melnikov joins the room [07:26:40] I didn't see the announcement. [07:27:05] Not at this time. [07:27:31] I was aware of the change but I don't think it has gone out to the list yet. [07:27:35] I have not had time to do a review. [07:27:47] alexey is speaking [07:27:53] Distracted by media type issues - sorry. [07:29:31] Hopefully in the next week or two. [07:30:37] kind remind: please indicate MIC if anyone want to speak out [07:31:44] pete is speaking [07:32:06] these document need more review [07:32:31] pete: read the document and report it to the list [07:32:49] murray is speaking [07:34:02] john is speaking [07:34:21] I lost sound. Similar problem yesterday on my side, but did what helped yesterday, and sound still not back. [07:34:23] Murray is speaking [07:34:45] Martin, I still have sound [07:35:17] Sound is still on for me. [07:36:41] I am "happy" with recent revisions of the core documents. It's hard to figure out what external people are going to say. Some of the suggestions have seemed big, but have very little impact on our actual prototype implementations. Most of the changes now seem really, really minor. [07:36:56] Jiankang Yao: only editorial changes to rfc5336bis for next version [07:38:15] Review comments yes; new draft may be tight. [07:38:17] One of my concerns with 5336bis is whether we have a story for why we did the *extension* syntax in 5335bis but are using an *alternate* syntax on 5336bis. [07:38:27] john: if rfc5336bis and other doc really just need the editorial work, we need say they finish. [07:38:52] (My current read of 5336bis is that it's still using the alternate syntax.) [07:39:07] rfc5335-6-7 bis, will have a revision within 2-3 weeks after the meeting [07:39:33] all the editors agree to do so [07:39:50] don't get sound anymore, neither with iTunes nor with Windows Media Player. Seems to be local issue, though don't know what. [07:39:58] I agree with John, but am less worried aobut being embarrased. If we are only making editorial changes, then we to risk being embarrased so we can get the feedback. [07:40:22] (I get sound from WMP, FWIW). [07:40:39] FWIW, I'm using iTunes. [07:41:15] joseph: pls review rfc5721bis and 38bis and popimap-downgrade documents [07:41:46] @Shawn: sure. But the last round wasn't about editorial problems, they were about substantive ones. And, e.g., ABNF issues get treated in the IETF as substantive, even if they might be considered editorial from other perspectives. [07:41:57] rfc5721bis and 38bis will have a new version soon [07:42:20] yes, the "IMAP Support for UTF-8" will be updated within next 2 weeks [07:43:05] dcrocker joins the room [07:43:29] now 7. Status update of PKIX-EAI – draft-ietf-pkix-eaiaddresses- 00 [07:44:05] Martin, any updates on mailto:? [07:44:16] We'll relay. [07:47:16] well, I published a new version recently (a few weeks ago) [07:48:19] Is there any reason to assume that the mailserver for whatever@eaidomain would be the same as the one for whatever@asciidomain? [07:48:56] I think ASCII should be ASCII and Unicode should be Unicode, I don't think punycode should exist just to duplicate the Unicode form. [07:48:58] draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00 [07:49:14] Jacky Yao11 (Health Yao) joins the room [07:49:26] one question we had was what should go in the ASCII field if we have a UTF-8 address? If they DON'T match, then it seems like it's really hard to guarantee they're both the smae mailbox. [07:49:42] That's exactly my point. [07:50:05] And I have been asked yesterday about about representing EAI addresses in LDAP [07:50:20] any other business [07:50:27] Alex: If at all possible, try to use UTF-8 [07:50:30] That would need to be worked on at some point as well [07:50:52] john: get more silence [07:50:59] barry is speaking [07:51:00] Remind: please indicate MIC if anyone want his comments relayed to the mic in the room [07:51:02] Martin: it is possible. We just need to define new attributes, we can't redefine existing ones [07:51:22] abelyang leaves the room [07:51:22] Alexey: What's the syntax associated with the mail attribute in the "standard" schema? [07:51:34] mic: The problem isn't that nobody wants this, but that we've got most of this "solved". We need to submit the docs. [07:51:54] abelyang joins the room [07:51:57] The problem is there are no issues :) [07:52:22] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) leaves the room [07:52:32] If there were issues, we'd complain about them and discuss them. We have consensus, so we really need to move the docs forward. [07:52:43] Sorry 'bout the double negative :) [07:52:52] Ned Freed: "mail" is IA5String (or whatever the name is), i.e. ASCII [07:53:38] Well, that sucks. Because it's going to be a nightmare to switch to a different attribute. Changing the syntax is probably a better bet. [07:53:46] Barry, at the time the slot was requested, we expected to have the drafts that are now promised for "next couple of weeks" posted well before the meeting. [07:53:51] joseph: any other comments? [07:53:51] sound is back. [07:53:59] John, I understand. [07:54:27] seems reason was that I connected an HDMI display, and this took over the sound without actually having a speaker [07:54:28] joseph: thanks Alexey [07:54:29] Is anyone implementing this using standard Unix mbox? [07:54:33] Yes, thanks Alexey :) [07:54:42] thanks Alexey!!!! [07:54:42] Hear Hear!!!! [07:54:44] thanks alexey's good job done [07:54:46] (me clapping) [07:55:01] pete is speaking [07:55:03] Just curious which mailbox formats are being supported [07:55:28] pete hope that his name is removed from the imap-bis [07:56:00] alexey: ad is more important, name is not important [07:56:21] barry is speaking [07:56:33] I have to agree with Barry here. [07:56:33] John Dong joins the room [07:56:52] Ned, Barry: so do I [07:57:02] OK. [07:57:06] John Dong leaves the room [07:57:10] last call for any other comments [07:57:16] from joseph [07:58:07] I've done some MTA implementation work, but no message store. [07:58:12] actually, a student of mine implemented it, years ago [07:58:27] sorry, don't remember the details off the top of my head [07:58:59] randy is speaking [07:59:16] mic: now that I can hear you guys again, can somebody tell me what happened in this meeting with the mailto: document [07:59:32] In particular, what's the plans (or not) to adopt it as a WG document? [07:59:34] I don't think we talked about mailto [07:59:44] I will bring it to the mic [07:59:54] My understanding is mailto will become a WG item. [08:00:37] Just an idea: What about changing "From" to something like Φρωμ [08:00:42] ? [08:00:45] Ned Freed: I think so too [08:00:47] Martin, (since we have time) if you can bring Skype up, I can try to conference you in so that you can say some words about MAILTO. [08:01:23] John, I'd mostly explain what I wrote in my last mail to the WG on this subject. [08:01:34] But maybe it would give people a chance to ask some quesitions [08:02:08] Yeah. And the people who don't read the mailing list (along with not reading the docs) a quick overview. [08:02:12] so why do'nt you give it a try with skype [08:02:14] I think after this discussion, the easiest thing is to ask the room if there are any questions about mailto:. [08:02:31] randy is speaking [08:03:37] fujiwara is speaking [08:03:46] Well, the problem if you add some kind of flag, the old clients won't know to look for the flag any more than they expect utf-8. [08:03:47] mailbox issues [08:04:14] Ned -- exactly [08:04:58] Randy, but you would like to have some marker? [08:05:17] Randy: I really don't see any useful solutions to the problem. utf-8 messages are going to leak. It's unavoidable. [08:05:40] I think that the emphasis should be on the IRI form rather than the URL form for mailto: [08:05:50] barry: anyone read mailto doc? [08:05:58] silence in the room [08:05:58] Here is the relevant text from my mail: [08:06:00] This draft may be of interest to some WG participants, as it is in the long-term part of the charter. I have asked the Co-Chairs to put it on the agenda of the WG meeting in Prague if they feel there may be enough time and energy left. I have tried to address earlier comments (in particular also from John K.) regarding hidden encoding/decoding complexity by explicitly renaming ABNF rules. As an example, the addr-spec rule has been renamed to addr-spec-enc, to make clear that while it is *almost* the same as addr-spec in the main email-related RFCs, it's *not* the same. [08:06:01] Shawn: I agree. [08:06:51] Martin, I can't bring up on Skype before you respond to my contact request (sent twice now).. If you see Skype as on, something is badly disconnected somewhere. [08:07:28] mic: I really don't like the emphasis on encoding. I'd prefer an IRI emphasis [08:07:31] barry: still no comments to mailto [08:07:46] Yes, I read it :) [08:07:47] Yes, I scanned it. [08:07:55] I've looked at it [08:08:02] barry: has anyone read the longago documents [08:08:04] Yes, I read it too. And made suggestions. [08:08:04] Mic: You have a comment from Shawn here. [08:08:09] we made some progress with skype [08:08:10] there are a few hands in the room [08:08:18] mic: ??????? [08:09:03] mic: I think that the emphasis should be on the IRI form rather than the URL form for mailto: [08:09:16] mic: I really don't like the emphasis on encoding. I'd prefer an IRI emphasis [08:09:21] no, that was the 1st :) [08:09:35] barry is speaking [08:10:09] martin could you adjust your volume higher [08:10:32] now better [08:10:46] martin is speaking [08:11:21] mailto: is interesting in that there is less emphasis on being able to type it from a business card or whatever. (If it's going on a card, just put your email address!) But I still prefer to deemphasize encoding. [08:11:33] For one, mailto: works in several of our products, even with non-ASCII stuff (eg: UTF-8), and, in practice, they show up in places users type, and users don't usually type %-encoded stuff. [08:12:37] I concede that mailto: isn't intended for business cards, but it often ends up with some part(s) not encoded. [08:13:29] I'd prefer the IRI approach first, with the URL approach in a later section. [08:15:35] john is speaking [08:18:05] Thanks everyone. [08:18:11] we will close the meeting soon [08:18:14] Hint, hint: see you tomorrow at the IRI WG meeting [08:18:19] john.levine leaves the room [08:18:27] john: suppose that we will finish the work soon [08:18:34] Randall Gellens leaves the room [08:18:54] meeting adjourn [08:19:05] sm leaves the room [08:19:08] shawnsteele007 leaves the room [08:19:17] And since it's 1:20AM here, later everyone. 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