[05:59:00] shawn_steele joins the room [06:05:36] shawn_steele leaves the room [06:06:13] shawnsteele joins the room [06:08:15] I don't hear anything on the audio? [06:09:28] shawnsteele leaves the room [06:26:31] shawnsteele joins the room [06:35:41] yone joins the room [06:37:02] shawn, the meeting will start 20min after from now [06:40:46] joseph.yee joins the room [06:42:49] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) joins the room [06:43:57] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) has set the subject to: EAI @ IETF 78 [06:44:14] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) has set the subject to: EAI @ IETF 78 [06:51:04] Yes, I was apparently doing my math badly :) [06:51:12] (Better than the other way I suppose) [06:51:18] joseph.yee leaves the room [06:51:23] joseph.yee joins the room [06:52:01] joseph.yee leaves the room [06:52:09] joseph.yee joins the room [06:52:41] hello [06:52:43] shawn [06:57:39] fujiwara joins the room [06:57:55] meeting will start soon [06:58:00] aka joins the room [06:58:04] joseph.yee leaves the room [06:58:09] Meeting time: 0900-1130 Morning Session I Friday Meeting venue: 0.9 AthensAPPeai Email Address Internationalization WG [07:03:27] g.e.montenegro joins the room [07:03:55] agenda bashing [07:04:00] gimgs0 joins the room [07:04:47] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/agenda/eai.txt [07:05:52] John:hope the wg can finish the work soon and shut down. [07:06:07] Chris Waigl joins the room [07:06:33] the original editor of 7 doc will go to participate [07:07:05] some will be the senior advisor or editor [07:07:05] joseph.yee joins the room [07:07:51] if no more volunteer, the wg will be closed. [07:07:59] alexey.melnikov joins the room [07:08:02] any comments to agenda [07:08:04] ? [07:08:20] now discuss rfc4952bis [07:08:45] I like the framework doc :) [07:09:04] how many read rfc4952bis [07:09:08] I believe it is reasonably close if not "good enough" [07:09:12] some raised his hand [07:09:50] stainlesskim joins the room [07:10:04] which shedule for reading this document [07:10:20] How many people need to review it? [07:10:35] Hyong-Jong Paik joins the room [07:10:50] barry is speaking [07:13:01] hope that there will have enough people to review the document [07:13:10] john [07:13:16] Sounds good :) [07:13:28] John says 4 or 5 people should look at it very carefully in order for the AD to be convinced that there is enough WG feedback/review. [07:14:03] (raising hand I guess). I think that the WG learned a lot from the experimental stage, and that the WG is fairly comfortable with the direction. [07:14:05] john:hope the document can cover all the questions we concerned [07:14:18] ad: alexey speaking [07:14:37] ywang830 joins the room [07:14:49] So I don't think there's a lack of interest, rather maybe a complacency that we're moving "in the right direction". [07:15:33] john, put the document into rfc editor step by step [07:15:41] I think this document needs locked down. I'm not sure there are dependency problems, however if headers & SMTP are on track, then I don't mind waiting a tiny bit. [07:16:12] Randall Gellens joins the room [07:18:30] sm joins the room [07:19:08] 72fa92bd6acef085 joins the room [07:19:54] Keyword strategy is OK :) [07:21:12] I've already read it :) I'm happy with it :) Take my name :) [07:21:20] many want to see the document before deadline [07:21:26] about 15 people [07:21:29] Andrew joins the room [07:21:44] John taking a picture of the people raising their hand... :) [07:21:50] gimgs0 leaves the room [07:22:16] gimgs0 joins the room [07:22:22] let's move on to 5335bis [07:22:55] I'm also reasonably happy with the headers doc :) [07:23:20] I believe most of the problems are "merely editorial" (syntax, etc.) [07:23:21] anyone think that rfc5335bis is ready to go? [07:24:38] move to 5335bis to last callearly sep. [07:25:05] john picture again [07:26:18] john: iesg decied the keyword [07:26:59] ASCII@non-ASCII is out of scope? [07:27:28] andrew is speaking, [07:28:03] ASCII@non-ASCII is "just" legacy behavior. Existing clients already do punycode domain stuff, so there's nothing preventing them from continuing to do that. UTF8SMTP may be more aware, but legacy clients will already do that. [07:28:12] Barry Leiba joins the room [07:29:32] I don't know how this can be argued for ASCII@non-ASCII - IDN already forced this issue. [07:29:47] resnick joins the room [07:31:10] Agreed that the gap should be small :) I just think there are existing things that convert non-ASCII domains to ACE, so we cannot expect to prevent that. [07:32:42] john is speaking, addressing the shawn's concern of ascii@non-ascii [07:33:20] Again, I think that's out-of-scope. That's something introduced by IDN. Punycode's leaking everywhere, so I really wouldn't want to prevent apps from doing something "smart" with it if they can. [07:33:33] (Not saying I like that mess, but it's out-of-scope) [07:34:02] andrew agree with john [07:34:18] abelyang joins the room [07:35:15] pete said that the idn prolbem is different from eai [07:35:30] Alireza Saleh joins the room [07:36:31] We already have "unlabeled crap" and app-specific behavior. I don't know how we can prevent that. That means UTF8SMTPbis servers cannot do whatever they were doing. So they may break. [07:37:20] @shawn: We may be in violent agreement, coming at this from opposite angles. [07:38:12] But a non-EAI server doesn't have that restriction :) And since we haven't done two-way handshaking, there's no guarantee that the client isn't legacy. [07:38:45] mtcarrasco joins the room [07:38:46] fujiwara is speaking [07:38:48] But of course it is true that people can do what they want in the sense that they don't conform to the spec [07:39:02] I think the best/worst we can say is "SHOULD". [07:39:10] so what? There are no Internet cops. The question is what is the right thing for the _spec_ to say? [07:39:18] sean.s.shen joins the room [07:40:18] So it's OK for a "new" server to have "less" functionality than a currently deployed server? [07:41:15] @shawn: Yes, it's OK to prevent old servers from trying to sneak through unlabeled nonsense that is already broken per current standards. [07:42:44] The spec saying MUST says to do this interoperably (i.e., that you *know* will work properly), you have to not give unlabeled nonsense to servers that might screw it up. [07:43:08] john, we did not discuss based on the charter but on the real situaltions. [07:43:38] I was thinking more of the compatibility of the variety of systems in the wild, rather than standards, so maybe I need to adjust my perspective :) [07:43:57] tonyhansen joins the room [07:45:07] compatibility: 2-addresses draft [07:45:57] The point of the WG is that we're about interoperability, and _not_ about telling people what to do. The goal here is to improve interop in the sense that generally predictable behaviour is more reliably interoperable than working out between the parties. [07:46:03] Doing things in the wild to deal with folks who have already done something non-standard is entirely up to you (and probably fine, given that you understand that you trying to be "helpful" might make things worse). But when we write down instructions, the instructions should say, "Don't try to be 'helpful'". [07:46:06] reject:loud hum [07:46:22] favor: I can not hear any hum [07:46:53] @shawn: Do you wish to do any humming? [07:47:19] aka leaves the room [07:47:20] dave crocker speaking [07:47:49] aka joins the room [07:48:08] 'should' VS "must" [07:48:15] Exception would be interoperability with the previous, non-UTF8SMTPbis versions (whether they were previously legal or not). But (to continue...) [07:48:17] favor must [07:48:42] But if we stick on the idea of the existing standards forbidding it, then that argument doesn't make sense. [07:49:08] (Actually I finished typing, I guess I just had slow bits) [07:49:15] :) [07:49:19] john: it is a must [07:49:26] The sound from here to you is slow. :-) [07:49:43] need more wd40 n the lines [07:49:55] new draft will come to appear soon [07:50:17] (Yes, sound makes more sense. If it wasn't 1 AM I might've realized that) [07:51:24] many people will review the new draft [07:51:26] (*Silly conversation about John taking pictures of volunteers going on with people not going to the mics. *) [07:51:31] john give a picture [07:51:49] yone leaves the room [07:51:57] Barry Leiba leaves the room [07:51:57] tony will help dsn [07:52:02] yone joins the room [07:52:02] gimgs0 is now known as KIM Kyongsok [07:52:02] KIM Kyongsok is now known as gimgs0 [07:52:02] gimgs0 is now known as KIM Kyongsok [07:52:05] New editors, everyone! [07:52:36] barryleiba joins the room [07:53:22] imap:sean shen [07:53:39] pop : yao, fujiwara [07:53:46] Are there "deadlines" for these new docs? [07:53:55] fujiwara:downgrade [07:54:22] yoneya joins the room [07:55:04] Then why wait 'til middle of october for mailing lists? [07:55:16] @shawn: See charter, but 3-base first, then imap/pop, then mailing list. [07:55:20] He's answering me [07:55:23] :) [07:55:28] Mailing lists will benefit from having the other documents stable [07:56:11] FWIW: It'd really help me if we could have stuff stable this fall. [07:56:16] takehito akagiri joins the room [07:56:30] KIM Kyongsok is now known as gimgs0 [07:56:46] no other business [07:56:49] Randall Gellens leaves the room [07:56:52] adjourned [07:56:55] Thanks for jabbering for me :) [07:56:58] sm leaves the room [07:56:58] mtcarrasco leaves the room [07:57:15] ending time is 9:57 am, friday [07:57:15] abelyang leaves the room [07:57:20] shawnsteele leaves the room [07:57:38] stainlesskim leaves the room [07:58:03] g.e.montenegro leaves the room [07:58:31] Hyong-Jong Paik leaves the room [07:59:15] Andrew leaves the room [07:59:20] barryleiba leaves the room [07:59:42] resnick leaves the room [07:59:50] yoneya leaves the room [08:01:25] 72fa92bd6acef085 leaves the room [08:01:30] gimgs0 is now known as KIM Kyongsok [08:01:30] KIM Kyongsok is now known as gimgs0 [08:04:50] aka leaves the room [08:04:50] gimgs0 is now known as KIM Kyongsok [08:04:50] KIM Kyongsok is now known as gimgs0 [08:06:30] gimgs0 is now known as KIM Kyongsok [08:09:24] sean.s.shen leaves the room [08:09:29] KIM Kyongsok leaves the room [08:09:30] gimgs0 joins the room [08:09:38] Chris Waigl leaves the room [08:10:53] alexey.melnikov leaves the room [08:10:53] takehito akagiri leaves the room [08:11:45] ywang830 leaves the room [08:12:26] Alireza Saleh leaves the room [08:13:19] Randall Gellens joins the room [08:17:31] Randall Gellens leaves the room [08:20:01] yone leaves the room: コンピューターが休止します [08:21:59] tonyhansen leaves the room [08:23:12] gimgs0 leaves the room [08:26:54] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) leaves the room [09:01:37] joseph.yee leaves the room [09:07:25] Ernie Dainow joins the room [09:16:02] Did the meeting start yet? I don't hear anything on the audio link. [09:27:12] Ernie Dainow leaves the room [10:56:09] alexey.melnikov joins the room [13:17:08] alexey.melnikov leaves the room [19:22:24] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) joins the room [20:57:43] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) leaves the room