[15:06:48] yao joins the room [15:21:39] sm joins the room [15:33:15] fujiwara joins the room [15:33:43] Dowon Kim joins the room [15:33:48] Test [15:37:53] yone joins the room [15:38:09] CNNIC-AA5684158 joins the room [15:39:54] Exodus joins the room [15:41:17] tonyhansen joins the room [15:41:51] Barry Leiba joins the room [15:41:58] resnick joins the room [15:42:15] klensin joins the room [15:42:18] Chris Newman joins the room [15:44:06] tonyhansen has set the subject to: EAI @ IETF 75 [15:44:09] issues with eai-imap-utf8-07: [15:44:25] haa joins the room [15:44:39] Alexey: reviewed with 1 issue: lack of SASLprep [15:44:57] What to do with invalid UTF-8 and strings that fail SASLprep [15:46:31] This is section talking about usernames [15:47:21] Pete: fine. will just change this. [15:47:34] takasima joins the room [15:50:10] chris: [15:50:15] fneves@jabber.registro.br joins the room [15:50:18] CNNIC-AA5684158 leaves the room [15:50:24] Xiaodong joins the room [15:50:31] koji joins the room [15:50:56] John Klensin: concerned about reliance on stringprep as we're moving away from that in other way. [15:50:57] Doug_Otis joins the room [15:51:02] sm leaves the room [15:51:14] Chris: suggest indirect reference through SASL PLAIN. [15:52:26] sm joins the room [15:52:32] sm leaves the room [15:53:30] Pete: has anyone implemented this IMAP spec? [15:53:36] room: no hands [15:53:53] Pete: this is a concern, but OK for experimental status. [15:54:00] Moving on to POP document. [15:54:44] Alexey issues: language range reference needs to be clairified [15:54:54] joseph.yee joins the room [15:56:04] issue 2: comments about SASLprep for APOP and USER/PASS. Same as IMAP. [15:56:35] Issue 3: inexact message sizes issue. [15:59:15] sm joins the room [16:00:02] shinta joins the room [16:00:29] Randy: message size will be inexact with UTF-8 mailstore when it has to downgrade. Clients that require reliable sizes may be broken by this change. [16:01:01] rfc1939 (pop3) is concern on list, not on stat (if I recall correctly) [16:01:11] regards to size [16:01:36] Randall Gellens joins the room [16:03:22] Conclusion: need more text describing this issue. [16:04:08] Next document: draft-ietf-eai-downgraded-display-01 [16:05:05] Barry: on previous document, may want to support multiple usernames but best to describe that in framework or usability document. [16:05:14] No issues raised on downgraded-display. [16:06:09] Next subject: deployment experience [16:06:38] draft-yao-eai-deployment-03, draft-yee-eai-pop3-scenarios-00, draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-00 [16:07:38] Doug_Otis leaves the room [16:08:14] yee: pop3-scenario hopes to help on client side testing [16:08:41] how many raise hands? [16:09:17] I saw 3 hands [16:09:24] thanks :) [16:12:07] Discussion of deployment experience. [16:12:42] Problems talking to non-EAI mail servers, downgrading raises same phishing problem with non-downgrading. [16:13:15] please repeat the question [16:13:37] how many users have been registered in the testing platform [16:14:03] about 30-ish registered [16:14:06] edmon joins the room [16:14:29] it's useful for people who cna't be there physically! [16:14:34] yes, I'm listening ;) [16:14:41] Magnus Bergman joins the room [16:14:54] 30 - 40 [16:16:40] John: Concerned whether downgrade is sufficiently interoperable and proven to overcome significant disadvantages of new email syntax. [16:21:59] Is Ernie Dainow here this week? [16:22:06] no he's not [16:22:30] I finally looked at test messages he sent to me and see some downgrade issues. [16:22:39] missing headers? [16:22:43] or something else? [16:22:47] Malformed headers. [16:22:55] We can jabber privately. [16:23:03] sure [16:23:11] John: long discussion of interoperability concerns with downgrading. [16:24:06] Ted: what use case is a concern? [16:24:23] John: concerned with environments where anti-spam games based on behavior. [16:25:23] John: if we're introducing distortions in such tests we should at least understand them. [16:26:02] Ted: concerned about feature-creep for how downgrade interacts with non-standard systems delaying work. [16:26:37] Xiaodong leaves the room [16:30:00] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [16:30:07] Magnus Bergman joins the room [16:31:08] persist joins the room [16:31:41] Xiaodong joins the room [16:35:35] takasima leaves the room [16:40:58] on the 'business card' example, users type only one address, not the compound, downgrade's big main purpose is for the sender address [16:41:07] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [16:41:13] Magnus Bergman joins the room [16:44:56] John: concerned that downgrade is the high risk area. Particularly the > syntax. [16:45:27] John: draft standard test will involve testing this against broken mail related stuff in the wild. [16:45:45] zhangjie joins the room [16:46:15] @joseph: I mostly agree, but people will, for a long time, want 2 addresses on the business card, and would like them "connected". The address book/vcard problem is the more important one: You get a ">" address and want to save them both in the address book. [16:46:18] Dave: we really believe we do not understand all of the problems this may cause and would like to understand them better before promoting this. [16:46:35] (and you want to have them connected) [16:46:57] speaker too far away :( [16:47:36] Did you hear Dave Crocker? [16:47:48] (the last speaker before Ted now?) [16:47:50] Ted: charter says we can go forward with downgrade as informational [16:48:24] Ted: Charter does require mailing list problems be considered before advancing [16:49:40] Ted's is fine, Dave, barely... [16:49:47] no worry, thanks [16:50:12] fneves@jabber.registro.br leaves the room [16:51:43] Barry: thought double-address would be transitional initially. [16:51:57] Harald: many not be very transitional [16:53:08] unless there's another way to resolve backward compatible... [16:53:52] Harald: we need to have confidence in downgrade or willingness to set aside downgrade before moving the set to standards track. [16:54:17] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [16:54:23] Magnus Bergman joins the room [16:54:25] @pete: regard to the connecting, yes I agreed [16:55:02] Ted Hardie joins the room [16:56:04] sm leaves the room [16:56:19] Xiaodong leaves the room [16:57:47] Xiaodong joins the room [17:01:44] Moving on to mailto URL issue [17:03:45] please ask: did mailto just invoke by browser to start the local OS's desktop mail client? If so, does it need to bother all the http escape? [17:07:36] sm joins the room [17:07:37] Discussion of schemes to do mailto iri and uri. [17:12:44] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [17:12:48] Is mailto making progress [17:12:51] Magnus Bergman joins the room [17:13:18] Alexey has encouraged document author [17:13:53] joseph.yee: yes, typically, anything that resolves a "mailto" scheme invokes the configured mail client [17:14:13] Ted: if we do a new IRI scheme, this could be non-blocking. But if we do IRI form of mailto then mailto-bis is blocking. [17:15:02] Ted: suggest a conf call gets set up with dedicated time of experts such as Leslie and Pete. [17:15:10] John: also interested in this call. [17:15:16] joseph.yee : But proper encoding into a legal URL is still needed in most contexts (e.g., to have it be in a web page) as otherwise it's an invalid URL. [17:16:40] Alexey will collect together assorted experts to talk with Martin about mailto-bis. [17:17:17] @anabolism: maybe mailto should treat differently :), totally off topic, thanks for clarify [17:17:28] Mailing list draft: [17:17:35] (expired) [17:17:37] I'm old fashioned that way [17:18:23] Randy: No, nothing has been worked on. [17:18:51] Major issue in mailing list is the mailto: issue. [17:19:05] The rest of the draft is handwaving about ideal solutions. [17:22:30] Chris: I volunteer to take EAI issue discussion to my engineering team to provide some feedback on the problems. [17:22:45] (actually, I was saying the mailto issue is now mostly handwaving) [17:22:52] Conclusions: [17:23:00] documents in last call: imap & pop have small details. [17:23:09] downgrade-display has no small details. [17:23:31] need more input on list that documents have been reviewed. [17:24:05] Will pass these 3 to Alexey hopefully relatively soon. [17:24:26] Need shepherd write-ups for these from WG chairs or their delegates. [17:24:55] Deployment experience: [17:25:21] No concrete actions. [17:25:28] Progressing on standards track: [17:25:46] do want downgrade experience and experience with what happens in the wild with downgrade. [17:26:06] Who's doing testing, what are results. [17:26:53] People who volunteer are extremely welcome. [17:27:01] Mailto: AD action to figure out where it is. [17:27:04] regard testing, how about renew test case scenario doc? [17:27:07] Magnus Bergman leaves the room [17:27:13] Magnus Bergman joins the room [17:27:24] mailing lists: Randy action to refresh document. Chris action to discuss with team to determine problems. [17:28:24] Barry Leiba leaves the room [17:28:25] WG concluded [17:28:32] koji leaves the room [17:28:39] Chris Newman leaves the room [17:28:39] shinta leaves the room [17:28:41] Ted Hardie leaves the room [17:28:43] Dowon Kim leaves the room [17:28:46] fujiwara leaves the room [17:28:58] I will ask in group instead I guess.... [17:29:27] :) thanks to everyone who lend me their voices and answer my questions! 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