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[03:31:41] * harald has changed the subject to: Reminder: Interim meeting June 5. Jabber scribing will be available.
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[20:39:09] --- xiaodong.lee has joined
[20:39:16] <harald> now we are two...
[20:39:21] <xiaodong.lee> aha
[20:39:24] <xiaodong.lee> :)
[20:39:30] <harald> what's your jabber ID?
[20:39:43] <xiaodong.lee> xiaodong.lee
[20:39:46] <harald> mine is harald@alvestrand.no - my usual ID :-)
[20:40:07] <harald> xiaodong.lee@jabber.asrc.cn?
[20:40:13] <xiaodong.lee> yes
[20:40:18] <xiaodong.lee> xiaodong.lee@jabber.asrc.cn
[20:41:18] <harald> ok, that worked. I have no idea why I was unable to enter the room on your jabber server, but this one works.
[20:42:21] <xiaodong.lee> okay, I will send a email to mailist, let everyone know the jabber server has been changed to jabber.ietf.org
[20:42:41] <harald> if possible, update the web page with that info too.
[20:44:24] * harald has changed the subject to: Interim meeting, Beijing
[20:56:46] --- JeffYeh has joined
[20:56:56] <JeffYeh> morning
[20:59:25] <harald> I take it nobody in Beijing can hear my voice. So if I want something said, someone will have to say it for me.
[20:59:38] <harald> but silently watching over you has its advantages :-)
[21:03:18] --- fujiwara has joined
[21:04:00] --- klensin has joined
[21:04:25] <harald> can anyone confirm that nobody in beijing can hear my voice?
[21:07:23] --- yangwooko has joined
[21:08:11] <yangwooko> No
[21:09:09] <JeffYeh> Harald, I had submit the header draft to IETF but they ask me if the document been approved by chair, what should i do?
[21:09:13] <yangwooko> We are waiting for two more persons to come.
[21:09:14] <klensin> To help parse that... we could get it briefly from the laptop that is connected to MSN and the screen, but, yes, we cannot now hear your voice
[21:10:30] <klensin> Jeff (and others) any time you submit a -00 draft with a name like draft-ietf-WGNAME-something, just copy the co-chairs -- they should send an "ok" to the secretariat. And, if they forget ,the secretariat will probably come after them.
[21:13:03] <harald> Jeff, just forward the message from the secretariat to the chairs. They can reply.
[21:13:22] <harald> I have not seen a request from the secretariat to the chairs for the header draft - they may have forgotten.
[21:14:10] <harald> If nobody can hear my voice, then I can mute my mike and depend on other people to speak for me if I ask for it in this room.
[21:14:51] <klensin> Could do that too. Or, try the SIP server or a skype setup for audio (???)
[21:15:08] <JeffYeh> ok, thanks
[21:24:55] <harald> I get an echo about a second later when I speak into the room. Nice verification that I got heard, but a little irritating.
[21:25:20] <harald> we'll see how loudly you have to speak in order to let me hear you. I'll tell you if I have trouble.
[21:26:44] <klensin> Given that we've got a microphone picking up from another microphone and that you are halfway around the world, a little echo and delay is probably to be expected
[21:27:11] <harald> which is a good reason for muting my microphone....
[21:45:43] <harald> so who is doing the jabber scribing?
[21:46:08] <yangwooko> Maybe no one.
[21:46:22] <yangwooko> Agenda bashing is on going.
[21:46:36] <yangwooko> As shown on the alternative web page.
[21:47:36] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Drafts should be checked consistency with WG charter.
[21:49:24] <yangwooko> (Klensin) The first thing regarding framework doc is the coordination among documents.
[21:49:46] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Second thing is terminology issue.
[21:51:13] <yangwooko> (Xiaodong) Will cover terminology issue later.
[21:51:43] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Go through all docs and come back terminology.
[21:52:15] <yangwooko> (Harald) Just pick "one" name.
[21:53:10] <harald> can someone type that word? I do not catch it....
[21:53:36] <klensin> Harald, what I said was that, while some names are problematic, the choice among others is more or less arbitrary... we just need to do it
[21:53:49] <klensin> .. i.e., make that choice and then stick to it.
[21:53:55] <harald> yes. It was the comment to that I did not catch (think it was from sheldon)
[21:54:20] <klensin> He was asking you if you could hear me :-(
[21:54:29] <harald> :-)
[21:54:44] <harald> you just talk, and yangwoo scribe. I'll catch up.
[21:55:35] <yangwooko> Well. It is very hard to catch up when John talks soooo fluently. :-(
[21:56:20] <klensin> (lost video to Taipei... debugging)
[21:56:22] <yangwooko> I checked scenario doc. But there seems no change at all. Is that right?
[21:56:33] <JeffYeh> lose your image & sound, it's ok if text still going
[21:56:37] <harald> just type a keyword or two. I can certainly ask if I do not understnad.
[21:57:00] <harald> yang, that is right - I did not change the scenarios. I had no input that I could remember.
[21:57:55] <klensin> Harald, is it worth explicitly pinging Keith and seeing if it is consistent with what he asked for?
[21:58:31] <harald> I did - his reply was that it was much like the thing he had hoped for, but he did not like its conclusions.
[21:59:50] <yangwooko> Klensin is covering changes since last draft.
[21:59:58] <yangwooko> See 12.3 of framework doc.
[21:59:59] <harald> "looks like a good start" was his exact words.
[22:00:46] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Let's defer discussion on framework after other docs.
[22:01:16] <yangwooko> (Harald) Is DKIM/PGP/SMIME covered?
[22:01:52] <yangwooko> (Klensin) PGP/SMIME is not affected.
[22:03:10] <yangwooko> (Klensin) DKIM is another thing.
[22:05:15] <harald> (klensin) reporting conversation with Sam Hartman - various options for dealing with DKIM, all of them wiht problems.
[22:06:12] <yangwooko> Scenario Doc
[22:06:19] <yangwooko> (Harald) No changes.
[22:08:10] <yangwooko> (Xiadong) Does it include all possibilities?
[22:08:31] <yangwooko> (Harald) Include all necessary ones.
[22:08:48] <harald> all the scenarios in the draft are necessary (I think).
[22:08:54] <harald> there may be others that are necessary.
[22:09:09] <harald> there are certainly many that can be thought of. Some of them may be necessary.
[22:11:11] <yangwooko> (Harald) Some Keith's comments are related with POP/IMAP.
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[22:13:08] <yangwooko> (Edmon/Klensin) Move all terminologies to framework doc.
[22:13:33] --- delphij has left
[22:14:21] <yangwooko> UTF Header Draft
[22:15:28] --- delphij has joined
[22:17:58] <harald> I am depending on the jabber scribe to understand this presentation, I think.
[22:18:21] <yangwooko> Have you received Jeff's PPT file?
[22:18:29] <yangwooko> Not much different from that.
[22:18:49] <yangwooko> (Jeff) Added new header I-Email:1.0
[22:19:09] <yangwooko> (Jeff) Added ABNF (mostly from Charles)
[22:20:34] <yangwooko> (Jeff) Issues are string prep on local part, trace field headers, and mailing list headers.
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[22:22:16] <yangwooko> (Yangwoo) According to current headers draft
[22:22:38] <yangwooko> (Yangwoo) ALT-ADDR and ATOMIC are mutually exclusive.
[22:23:02] <yangwooko> (Klensin) There seems no reason to include both of them in one address.
[22:23:20] <harald> sound quality has declined, but I think having them exclusive is good.
[22:24:22] <yangwooko> (Harald) Current doc only deals with addresses. What about other things in UTF-8?
[22:24:51] <yangwooko> (Harald) E.g. date in UTF-8.
[22:29:09] <yangwooko> (Harald) Section 6.2. needs to be changed to say that protocol fields are not affected(???)
[22:29:45] <yangwooko> Klensin asked wheter Harald want to send some sentences for that.
[22:29:47] <klensin> Harald and Jeff... I was asking if Harald wanted to draft some words for 6.2 and send them to Jeff
[22:29:48] <harald> I will send some language.
[22:30:02] <harald> I'll just send it to the EAI list, and people can comment there.
[22:30:17] <JeffYeh> ok, thank you
[22:30:59] <xiaodong.lee> jiankang give comments
[22:31:05] <yangwooko> (Yao) Including some examples ?
[22:31:17] <yangwooko> (Yao) To make points clearer.
[22:31:23] <harald> (I'm just admiring the fact that Jeff's presentation arrived in a file named with chinese characters, and the characters survived the journey and created a file with those characters in the name correctly on my disk....)
[22:32:37] <yangwooko> Klensin says that we cannot use UTF-8 in I-D.
[22:33:03] <xiaodong.lee> using U+NNNN, :)
[22:33:11] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Or PDF.
[22:34:24] <JeffYeh> oh, i see
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[22:36:02] <harald> in Google, we have used the word Îñţérñåţîöñåļîžåţîöñ as a test string in various contexts....
[22:36:45] <harald> (for those whose charset did not support that.... it's "internationalization", but wildly decorated with various types of combining marks....)
[22:36:57] <yangwooko> Hmmm. looks funny.
[22:39:11] <yangwooko> STMT EXT DOC
[22:39:21] <yangwooko> SMTP EXT DOC
[22:40:34] <yangwooko> Harald? Please
[22:40:39] <yangwooko> accept file through MSN.
[22:40:50] <klensin> Harald: Quiz... what does U+00EF U+0307 look like? How about two instances of U+0307 instead of one? Answer: between two and four dots.
[22:41:28] <yangwooko> Yao is send a PPT file to Harald.
[22:41:39] <JeffYeh> also to tech@twnic.net.tw please
[22:42:18] <yangwooko> I asked Yao to send the file to Jeff.
[22:43:00] <yangwooko> Between two and four....
[22:43:11] <yangwooko> You mean we have three possible outputs?
[22:43:49] <yangwooko> Yao started presentation.
[22:45:32] <yangwooko> Talking about Issue 1 slide.
[22:45:51] <yangwooko> Talking about Issue 2 slide.
[22:46:26] <yangwooko> Issue 3.
[22:48:57] <yangwooko> Let's go through all and discuss/resolve later.
[22:50:04] <delphij@gmail.com/Gaim> also to delphij@delphij.net please.
[22:50:07] <harald> issue 4 is more complex than it looks. agree that it is in downgrade.
[22:50:33] <harald> I'l mail it to you, delphi. (what's your real name, btw?)
[22:50:52] <yangwooko> Let's discuss one by one.
[22:51:00] <yangwooko> Issue 1
[22:52:58] <yangwooko> Yao failed to catch up Harald's question.
[22:53:25] <yangwooko> (Hararld) What is your arguments for/against SASLprep?
[22:53:48] <yangwooko> Yao is for SASLprep.
[22:55:14] <harald> I cannot hear the arguments in the room on this point, so I'll have to ask xiaodong to draw a conclusion.
[22:56:27] <yangwooko> Yao says that SASLprep is useful to avoid phishing.
[22:57:17] <yangwooko> (John) No easy solution to this issue.
[23:00:39] <harald> i think there are 2 ways to pull this one:
[23:01:11] <yangwooko> (Edmon) If we use SASLprep as a part of experiment, we should include what we are going to get from this experiment.
[23:01:43] <harald> - we should start out by being restrictive, so that we don't get all the problems at once; saslprep may be more permissive than optimal.
[23:01:55] <harald> - we should start out by being permissive, discover what the problems are, and forbid that.
[23:01:57] <yangwooko> (John) Should include reason to have any specific table.
[23:05:29] <yangwooko> Ask Chris whether SALSprep is good enough for local part.
[23:07:14] <yangwooko> (Xiadong) Should we do it inside of this WG or refering to other WGs?
[23:08:05] <yangwooko> (Harald) Pick up one (e.g. SASLprep) for experiment. Could be updated later??
[23:09:30] <yangwooko> Issue 2 should be defered (terminology...)
[23:09:35] <yangwooko> Issue 3
[23:10:35] <yangwooko> (Klensin) Use alt-addr and atomic exclusively.
[23:12:57] <yangwooko> (Klesin) <EAI , alt-addr> won't work.
[23:15:09] <harald> is there an issue with 2821 defining param-value as %d62-127? with alt-addr, we want %d62-255?
[23:15:34] <harald> I can't hear what John is saying at the moment.
[23:17:17] <yangwooko> Klensin is talking about exlcusive use ATOMIC/ALT-ADDR.
[23:17:36] <yangwooko> Yao will update acoording to it.
[23:18:16] <JeffYeh> How about the syntax in Header syntax?
[23:18:19] <harald> OK. I think those 2 understand that issue well.
[23:19:01] <yangwooko> Edmon raise some stupid situation and Klensin is replying...
[23:19:53] <yangwooko> (Klesin) There is no magic to generate alt-address with additional information.
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[23:33:41] <yangwooko> Klensin has explained why downgrade is useful in a few different aspects.
[23:35:33] <yangwooko> Moved to DOWNGRADE I-D
[23:36:17] <harald> is there a presentation here?
[23:36:29] <yangwooko> Fujiwara
[23:36:46] <yangwooko> sent an email including pointer to presentation files.
[23:37:04] <yangwooko> http://member.wide.ad.jp/~fujiwara/downgrade-20060605.pdf
[23:42:22] <yangwooko> Fujiwara is talking about 4 downgrade methods.
[23:49:02] <yangwooko> (Harald) How well do these 4 methods work for scenario 2.4 in scenario document?
[23:49:12] <yangwooko> Fujiwara is skimming through the scenario doc.
[23:51:54] <yangwooko> (Harald) How to reply in MIME encap case.
[23:52:28] <yangwooko> (Klensin) This is related with DKIM.
[23:59:38] <yangwooko> It's lunch time in China.