IETF
drinks@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, 29 March 2012< ^ >
Lorenzo Miniero has set the subject to: DRINKS WG session http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/agenda/drinks.txt
Room Configuration

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[13:15:51] Meetecho audio joins the room
[13:17:21] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
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[13:18:37] Jeremy Barkan joins the room
[13:19:17] Vikas Bhatia joins the room
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[13:20:15] Sumanth C joins the room
[13:21:49] Dan York joins the room
[13:22:10] Alex Mayrhofer joins the room
[13:23:57] <Alex Mayrhofer> Hi everyone.
[13:24:08] <Alex Mayrhofer> Yes, me!
[13:24:13] mjbarnes joins the room
[13:24:20] mjbarnes leaves the room
[13:24:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Alex can you hear them?
[13:25:01] <Alex Mayrhofer> i can hear, yes.
[13:25:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> try talking now
[13:25:45] <Jeremy Barkan> Please also let us know if you will be posting a GoToMeeting link
[13:27:03] Alessandro Amirante joins the room
[13:27:04] Alex Mayrhofer leaves the room
[13:27:05] kahli joins the room
[13:27:06] <Sumanth C> Jeremy - you need to call in using the call-in provided by Meetecho. You can find the info via the Phone (SIP/PSTN) tab,
[13:27:06] Alex Mayrhofer joins the room
[13:27:15] <Sumanth C> Under Audio/Video
[13:27:26] <Sumanth C> Vikas - are you there?
[13:27:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> the phone number is +1-323-927-1090
[13:28:09] <Tobia Castaldi> Vikas, could you please release the video floor?
[13:28:15] <Vikas Bhatia> ok
[13:28:15] <Jeremy Barkan> I am on using the Meetecho OK
[13:28:22] <Jeremy Barkan> have audio no video
[13:28:22] <Tobia Castaldi> thanks
[13:28:24] <Tobia Castaldi> ;)
[13:28:31] kahli leaves the room
[13:28:38] <Vikas Bhatia> how do I access the video?
[13:28:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Jeremy did you tick the video checkbox before staring the integrated voip? otherwise it's audio only
[13:29:13] <Alex Mayrhofer> I'll try re-joining using Video as well.
[13:29:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> use a headset please :)
[13:29:51] <Jeremy Barkan> will rejoin
[13:30:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> fr remote speakers, if you don't need to talk please mute yourself
[13:30:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> in order to avoid background noises or distortion
[13:30:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF #83 DRINKS WG Meeting
[13:31:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF #83 DRINKS WG Meeting
[13:31:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note Well
[13:31:32] <Alex Mayrhofer> jep, slides are on.
[13:31:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Agenda
[13:31:51] Alex Mayrhofer has set the subject to: DRINKS WG meeting IETF83
[13:31:56] <Alex Mayrhofer> yes
[13:32:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> congratulations :)
[13:32:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> "you should buy the drinks!"
[13:32:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> quoting a comment in the room ;)
[13:32:51] <Alex Mayrhofer> will do in Vancouver - if the WG still exists (which i hope *not* - will still buy drinks ;)
[13:33:08] <Simon Romano> lol
[13:33:09] Manjul Maharishi joins the room
[13:33:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: !!Scribes, Jabber!!
[13:34:00] <Alessandro Amirante> sorry if you experience small holes in the audio...
[13:34:12] <Alessandro Amirante> unfortunately we have no wired connection
[13:34:20] <Alessandro Amirante> and we have to rely on the wifi
[13:34:29] <Alex Mayrhofer> i will taking some notes while i'm here - will not be on the whole meeting, sadly.
[13:34:52] <Jeremy Barkan> still no video
[13:35:06] <Jeremy Barkan> on meeteccho - audoi mediocre, video none
[13:35:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: #1: WG Status Review
[13:35:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Since Taipei…
[13:35:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Jeremy, if you need high audio quality there's the mp3 stream
[13:35:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> we refer a more realtime one, even if it is lower quality
[13:35:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> prefere
[13:36:04] <Alessandro Amirante> BTW, Jeremy which audio option are you using?
[13:36:36] Manjul Maharishi leaves the room
[13:37:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: WG Milestones
[13:37:40] Manjul Maharishi joins the room
[13:37:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Apology from the editor of RFC6411
[13:38:21] Jeremy Barkan leaves the room
[13:38:26] <Simon Romano> Gonzalo @ mic
[13:38:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[13:38:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: #2: Interim Meeting Recap (Chairs)
[13:39:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DRINKS 82.5 (Interim Meeting)
[13:39:26] Manjul Maharishi leaves the room
[13:39:44] Jeremy Barkan joins the room
[13:39:44] Manjul Maharishi joins the room
[13:39:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Major Takeaways from the Interim
[13:40:12] <Alex Mayrhofer> (sorry, need to be away for about 10 mins)
[13:40:18] <Vikas Bhatia> lost the video..I am not sure if everyone has the same issue
[13:40:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[13:40:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Session Peering Provisioning Framework I
[13:41:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Session Peering Provisioning Framework I
[13:41:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Vikas Bhatia presenting remotely
[13:42:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note: This is not a new draft! draft-iet
[13:42:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Summary of updates in -00 and -01
[13:43:12] <Jeremy Barkan> OK back with video but horrible echo terrible distortion
[13:43:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Vikas is presenting remotely
[13:43:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Additions
[13:44:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Addressed inconsistencies in the SPPF Da
[13:44:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Additions
[13:44:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> is this the right slide you want to present?
[13:44:52] <Vikas Bhatia> No
[13:44:54] <Jeremy Barkan> audio is really bad
[13:44:56] <Vikas Bhatia> Slide 3
[13:45:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Summary of updates in -00 and -01
[13:45:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok
[13:45:20] <Alessandro Amirante> it seems the room mixer doesn't have the echo canceller... :(
[13:45:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Additions
[13:45:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> yep sorry about the audio: mixer with no echo canceller + wifi only connectivity
[13:46:58] <Jeremy Barkan> lost video
[13:47:00] <Alex Mayrhofer> (back)
[13:47:34] <Jeremy Barkan> just lost everything
[13:47:50] <Alex Mayrhofer> audio + rec. video work for me.
[13:47:54] <Jeremy Barkan> sorry for all the complaints - just hoping to give you input so someone can fix it
[13:48:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Jeremy, if you just need to listen there are both an RTSP stream and a flash player available
[13:48:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Addressed inconsistencies in the SPPF Da
[13:48:14] <Jeremy Barkan> I know
[13:48:23] <Jeremy Barkan> will try it - maybe will be better
[13:48:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> if the applet is causing trouble for you there's a phone number available as well
[13:48:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> if you also need to talk I mean
[13:49:08] <Jeremy Barkan> flash rtmp is better
[13:49:09] <Vikas Bhatia> 0..n and 1..n
[13:49:14] <Vikas Bhatia> kind of relationship
[13:49:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok ;)
[13:49:27] <Vikas Bhatia> for Cardinality
[13:49:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Attribute removal and correction
[13:49:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Next Steps
[13:49:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Attribute removal and correction
[13:51:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Next Steps
[13:51:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[13:51:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Session Peering Protocol over SOAP I-D (
[13:52:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note: This is not a new draft either! dr
[13:52:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Summary of updates in -00 and -01
[13:52:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Summary of updates in -00 and -01
[13:54:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Result Code related updates (1 of 2)
[13:54:35] <Vikas Bhatia> audio is very bad..cant hear much of it..
[13:54:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Vikas could you mute when not speaking?
[13:54:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> try muting
[13:54:49] <Vikas Bhatia> done
[13:54:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> better?
[13:55:01] <Vikas Bhatia> little bit..not much
[13:55:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> the mixer is attached to the wifi, we couldn't get a ceble here, so there may be holes
[13:55:31] <Alex Mayrhofer> audio is noisy and breaking up occsionally..
[13:55:54] <Meetecho audio feed> it breaks up because of the wifi connection here
[13:56:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Result Code related updates (2 of 2)
[13:56:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Security Considerations section updates
[13:57:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Also…
[13:57:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Next Steps
[13:58:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[13:58:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: SPPF Batch DOS Considerations
[13:59:12] <Jeremy Barkan> fine with me
[13:59:25] <Jeremy Barkan> no problems
[13:59:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[13:59:40] <Jeremy Barkan> given the audio - David will present for me I think
[14:00:31] <Vikas Bhatia> cant see the slides
[14:00:38] <Vikas Bhatia> on Meetecho
[14:00:41] Dan York leaves the room
[14:00:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, they were not on the materials page
[14:00:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> we had to upload them on the fly
[14:00:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> coming up
[14:01:51] <Vikas Bhatia> slides on Meetecho
[14:01:54] <Vikas Bhatia> are not correct
[14:02:24] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: LUF Vs LRF
[14:02:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> should be now
[14:02:32] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: LUF Vs LRF
[14:03:27] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Route Record
[14:04:54] <Alessandro Amirante> Jon Peterson @ mike
[14:05:13] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Issue #1: Everything is a Route
[14:05:19] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: SPPF Proposed Data Model
[14:05:45] ken cartwright joins the room
[14:06:21] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Issue #1: Everything is a Route
[14:06:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6 Suggestions
[14:08:19] <Jeremy Barkan> [16:07:32] Jeremy Barkan: maybe Jon's point - routes are recursively resolvable and LUF could support attributes that are resolvable by non-DNS models
[14:10:18] <Jeremy Barkan> are we saying that LUF could return things that are non-resolvable according to DNS - like rules ?
[14:10:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> back to slide 2
[14:11:04] <Alex Mayrhofer> (sorry, i have to leave for now :-/ )
[14:11:22] <Alessandro Amirante> is the audio better now?
[14:11:34] <Jeremy Barkan> a little bit - still some distortion
[14:11:34] <ken cartwright> sort of
[14:11:37] <Vikas Bhatia> yes, better for me
[14:12:06] Alex Mayrhofer leaves the room
[14:12:23] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: SPPF Proposed Data Model
[14:14:19] <Vikas Bhatia> How is it different from URIType
[14:14:47] <Alessandro Amirante> Jon Peterson speaking
[14:15:21] <Alessandro Amirante> Sohel Khan speaking
[14:16:22] <Alessandro Amirante> Jon again
[14:17:36] <Alessandro Amirante> Daryl Malas @ mic
[14:20:15] <Jeremy Barkan> audio dropping out [ I'm on PSTN now ]
[14:20:35] <Alessandro Amirante> It's the WiFi connection here
[14:21:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> the netnook streaming the media from the mixer is on the wifi
[14:21:10] <Alessandro Amirante> we already experienced such "holes" in the audio, in each session we ran on a wifi link
[14:21:33] <Alessandro Amirante> unfortunately, in this room the NOC wasn't able to provide us with a wired connection
[14:22:03] <Alessandro Amirante> all sessions with a wired connection are ok :(
[14:23:08] <Simon Romano> The problem is that our audio streaming netbook is currently sharing the IETF wifi connection with all of us.
[14:23:22] <Simon Romano> And that is no good for streaming.
[14:23:49] <Alessandro Amirante> Jon Peterson speaking
[14:26:18] <Vikas Bhatia> cant hear very well
[14:30:13] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Issue #2: Peering Isn't
[14:31:46] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Issue #3: Other SED information
[14:33:21] Syed Wasim Ali joins the room
[14:34:00] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 10: Route Rule
[14:34:27] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 11: Route Rule
[14:36:51] <ken cartwright> Changing the name is ok, but adding in the peeringOrg list to it changes its role/purpose.
[14:37:30] <ken cartwright> Adding in the peeringOrg makes it's purpose overlap with RteGrp.
[14:38:43] <Vikas Bhatia> peeringOrg on RteRecs
[14:38:43] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[14:38:52] <Vikas Bhatia> vs peeringOrg on this EgrRte
[14:39:00] <Vikas Bhatia> how do they relate?
[14:40:23] <Vikas Bhatia> How do u make sure that list of peeringOrg on EgrRte is one of peeringOrg attached to RteRecs
[14:40:27] <ken cartwright> It is only associated/usedBy/existFor the org that creates it.
[14:41:03] <ken cartwright> That's what the RteGrp is for.
[14:41:27] <ken cartwright> If you want a specific route for a specific Peer then you create s specific RouteGrp for the,
[14:41:40] <ken cartwright> peer
[14:42:18] <ken cartwright> not sure what you mean by "formatting rules"
[14:42:45] <ken cartwright> We call that "Dial Plan" and that is not in the data model.
[14:42:53] <ken cartwright> That was not in the use cases.
[14:43:18] <ken cartwright> It can be depending on how much we want to support in the data model
[14:44:13] <ken cartwright> "reformatting" is what you are calling it, but thatis a more generic concept than was originally envisioned.
[14:44:40] <Manjul Maharishi> if the org that is provisioning that rule wants to format it one way or the other, why wouldnt they do it the way they want it in the first place, why do they need to reformat it?
[14:45:52] <Manjul Maharishi> i dont see what optimization you get by creating reformating rule vs creating separate route...
[14:46:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Jeremy are you there?
[14:46:44] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SPPF Batch DOS Considerations
[14:47:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> *51 (star five one) to unmute
[14:48:05] <Jeremy Barkan> did not work ?
[14:48:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes
[14:48:09] <Lorenzo Miniero> we can hear you
[14:48:13] <ken cartwright> i can hear him
[14:48:29] <Vikas Bhatia> thr is lot of echo..cant hear Jeremy
[14:49:07] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: SPPF
[14:49:40] <ken cartwright> correct
[14:49:42] <Sumanth C> Jeremy - feel free to type your comments
[14:49:51] <Jeremy Barkan> thanks
[14:49:56] <Sumanth C> I can channel them...
[14:50:36] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Malicious SOAP Documents
[14:50:38] <Jeremy Barkan> Key point here - there are many threats that are common to all SOAP / Web Services - this is focused on what is key to SPPF
[14:51:54] <Jeremy Barkan> Yes - looking at SPPF commands that you could give look up would do exactly what Dean is saying
[14:52:43] <ken cartwright> SPPF is not more subject to DOC attacks than any other SOAP/XML protocol.
[14:52:49] <ken cartwright> DOS
[14:53:13] <ken cartwright> any of that can happen even on non-batch requests
[14:53:34] <Jeremy Barkan> The problem is discerning between a legitimate registrant provisioning 1M numbers and a malicious user
[14:54:17] <Jeremy Barkan> that is something in this space that is different than the general problems of SOAP
[14:54:18] <ken cartwright> It is up to the implementer to determin how many object they want to support in a batch requests. I'd not support 1 million.
[14:54:32] <Vikas Bhatia> its not a policy..its a 'matter of policy'
[14:54:45] <Vikas Bhatia> we discussed this on the mailing list as well..there need to be additional mechanisms that clients need to consider..like limiting the size of request
[14:54:59] <ken cartwright> it is a matter of policy
[14:55:33] <ken cartwright> the rollback is simply a factor that dertermines now many records to support in a batch.
[14:56:16] <Vikas Bhatia> SPPF is not choosing any policy..SPPF is saying "
[14:56:18] <Vikas Bhatia> The elements are processed by the SPPF
server in the order in which they are included in the request.
With respect to handling of error conditions, it is a matter of
policy whether the objects are processed in a "stop and
rollback" fashion or in a "stop and commit" fashion.
[14:56:18] <Jeremy Barkan> The tradeoff between what is a reasonable secure matter of policy and what will be usable is needed for SPPF to be succesfully used
[14:56:38] <ken cartwright> te need to rollback has nothing to do with with batch. You could create the same kind of attack doing many single object commands in sequence
[14:57:36] <Jeremy Barkan> Of course - there needs to be a full threat analysis of SPPF - both what is general to the choice of SOAP as an envelop and those specific to SPPF and its domain
[14:57:51] <ken cartwright> Dean, those are just typical design and implementation techniques that every server implementer deals with.
[14:57:52] <Jeremy Barkan> and this is not in the scope of this presentation
[14:58:26] <Jeremy Barkan> I think the point here is what are those considerations that the SPPF batch facility can consider
[14:58:37] <Syed Wasim Ali> if it helps interoperability, should these choices be made part of the service profile to enable active negations b/w spp client/server?
[14:59:46] <Jeremy Barkan> Syed this is a good point - and we should consider the issue of service profile for all the platform requirements like type if authentication
[14:59:51] <Jeremy Barkan> I just totally lost audio
[14:59:54] <Jeremy Barkan> ok
[15:00:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Defenses
[15:01:17] <Jeremy Barkan> back on
[15:01:26] <Jeremy Barkan> fine
[15:01:44] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[15:01:59] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: Services COIN association
[15:02:32] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Telephone number resolution
[15:05:38] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Examples of ENUM data
[15:06:40] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Interfacing with registries
[15:08:08] <Sumanth C> Remote participants: If you have comments, please feel free to type...
[15:09:58] <Tobia Castaldi> dean willis @mic
[15:13:37] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Telephone number resolution
[15:14:19] <ken cartwright> David, what's being described here on these slides is not a "Peering Provisioning Protocol", but SPP _is_ a "Peering Provisioning Protocol". Saying you want to remove the concept of "Peering" from SPP defeats the purpose of wht SPP is trying to do.
[15:18:44] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[15:18:48] <Vikas Bhatia> The protocol talks abt what Dean just mentioned..If the registry does not have a means to verify the CoR claim from registry wont return it in the CoR
[15:18:56] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: #7: Proposed Next Steps (WG Chairs)
[15:18:59] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: TBD for WG Chairs
[15:18:59] <Vikas Bhatia> Ken was also trying to speak..
[15:19:08] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: TBD for WG Chairs
[15:19:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Ken was channeled
[15:19:54] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Next Steps
[15:20:38] Alessandro Amirante leaves the room
[15:21:08] <Jeremy Barkan> thanks
[15:21:13] <Tobia Castaldi> bye all
[15:21:19] <Vikas Bhatia> Thanks..
[15:21:24] ken cartwright leaves the room
[15:21:34] <Tobia Castaldi> bye wifi
[15:21:36] <Tobia Castaldi> :)
[15:21:38] <Simon Romano> Thank you guys...and sorry about the poor experience :-(
[15:21:41] <Sumanth C> Thanks guys!
[15:21:50] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: TBD for WG Chairs
[15:21:51] <Simon Romano> I'll go fight with the NOC right now ;-)
[15:21:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentazione interrotta
[15:21:54] Manjul Maharishi leaves the room
[15:22:01] Simon Romano leaves the room
[15:22:08] Tobia Castaldi leaves the room
[15:22:15] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[15:22:32] Vikas Bhatia leaves the room
[15:22:37] Syed Wasim Ali leaves the room
[15:23:17] Sumanth C leaves the room
[15:23:22] Meetecho audio feed leaves the room
[15:34:10] Jeremy Barkan leaves the room