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[15:45:50] Brian Haberman has set the subject to: DPRIVE 2020-04-08 Interim
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[15:53:35] <Brian Haberman> Webex for today's session : https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m88e3d0d091544ea59c79eb5e610a115a
[15:53:46] <rro> Hi there! Does anyone know which is the meeting password?
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[15:57:27] <hardie> @Brian when I try that it gives me the DPRIVE Virtual Interim banner, but doesn't give me a Join Meeting button
[15:57:51] <Benno Overeinder> Use the link Brian just mentioned in the jabber room.
[15:58:16] <Brian Haberman> @Ted I see you on the Webex roster.
[15:58:17] <hardie> Okay, reloading got through.  But we may want to be aware that it is still flaky (probably from load at the top of the hour)
[15:58:32] <Benno Overeinder> The webex url in the email of yesterday (April 7th) is not used.
[15:59:02] ericorth joins the room
[15:59:20] <Brian Haberman> Just a reminder for everyone in the Jabber room to sign the virtual bluesheet in the EtherPad.
[15:59:21] <Brian Haberman> https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-interim-2020-dprive-01?useMonospaceFont=true
[15:59:34] Vittorio Bertola joins the room
[15:59:45] <mglt> webex rejects me as the meeting has not started. is that fine or somthing is wrong?
[16:00:09] <hardie> @mglt That's the wrong link, unfortunately; try the link Brian posted in email just now.
[16:00:13] <Christian Huitema> You should be able to connect now
[16:00:28] <Eric Vyncke> Daniel, the link on datatracker is wrong... use this one https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/e.php?MTID=mf5d93fb589f63172927b2fa1dc8f05f3
[16:00:34] Barry Leiba joins the room
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[16:02:14] <mglt> it worked thanks.
[16:02:32] James Gruessing joins the room
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[16:03:13] weiler started to type present+.  silly tooling differences.
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[16:04:40] <Warren Kumari> Doh. Well, I found the right ine...
[16:05:12] <ekr@jabber.org> For the love of all that is holy, mute yourself if you are not talking, lest we all die of echo
[16:05:58] <mglt> The sound is very bad to me, like if the speaker was speaking on a horse. Am I the only one ?
[16:06:14] <ekr@jabber.org> It's a bit echoey but basically OK
[16:06:34] <mglt> ok so I ma not the only one. I keep my setting.
[16:07:16] Amelia Andersdotter joins the room
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[16:07:28] <hardie> @mglt Do you take a lot of meetings where the speakers are on a horse?  Cause that's a very interesting visual.
[16:07:50] <Melinda> Numbering on the attendee list seems a little challenging
[16:08:08] <jhoyla> I'm not sure I would be able to identify what someone on a horse sounded like.
[16:08:15] <weiler> @hardie  galloping to conclusions?
[16:08:50] <lpardue> webex is a 'mare
[16:08:51] <mglt> could be a camel too ;-)
[16:09:10] <Christian Huitema> online meeting bingo card #5 -- do you see my slides?
[16:09:16] <Amelia Andersdotter> no
[16:09:22] <hardie> @weiler Picture the IETF plenary, but everyone on a horse, galloping to enfold Helm's Deep in protocol updates and process questions.  Excuse, me, what are the Nazgul doing about the cookie situation?
[16:10:09] <lpardue> if everyone had to wear unique jersey's like jockeys, it would help the note takers and jabber scribes
[16:10:12] <Christian Huitema> Rushing their horses to raid the cookie table?
[16:11:13] <hardie> @lpardue our naming of groups is almost as silly as race horse naming.  I'm beginning to like the idea.
[16:11:15] <jhoyla> Well as long as no-one sounds hoarse ...
[16:11:21] willem joins the room
[16:11:27] <evequefou> We can all get the slides as PDFs from datatracker.
[16:11:42] <jhoyla> Assuming datatracker can handle the load.
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[16:11:58] <Amelia Andersdotter> i see slides!
[16:12:30] <Warren Kumari> I see TINY slides.
[16:12:44] <Amelia Andersdotter> something in french flashed by
[16:13:03] <lpardue> I'm reminded of this for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq99acy8xdE
[16:13:35] <Benno Overeinder> Working out who is able/allowed to go to present mode.
[16:13:56] <Benno Overeinder> Tim: Chairs slides are presented.
[16:14:11] <Benno Overeinder> Agenda
[16:14:15] <Benno Overeinder> Document updates
[16:14:29] <Christian Huitema> What, no Note Well?
[16:14:41] <ek> alas, no slide numbers
[16:14:52] <ek> oh, no pdf numbers
[16:14:59] <ek> that works
[16:15:15] <jhoyla> I agree with @Christian, this is an IETF meeting, I need a note well!
[16:15:32] <Eric Vyncke> Note well was displayed ;-)
[16:15:49] <James Gruessing> It was displayed, for all of a brief moment
[16:16:10] <jhoyla> I must have blinked :P
[16:17:05] <Benno Overeinder> Christian Huitema, Allison Mankin, Sara Dickinson: DNS over QUIC
[16:18:17] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 2
[16:19:29] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 3
[16:21:57] Tim Wicinski joins the room
[16:21:59] <James Gruessing> Am I the only one struggling to hear Christian because of Webex’s AGC?
[16:22:15] <Brian Haberman> I hear him fine.
[16:22:16] <Ben Schwartz> I can hear fine
[16:22:17] <ekr@jabber.org> I can hear him fine
[16:22:21] <willem> No for me it is clear
[16:22:25] <Melinda> Sounds fine to me
[16:22:30] <Benno Overeinder> For me the audio is fine.
[16:23:05] kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl joins the room
[16:23:09] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 4
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[16:24:46] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 5
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[16:26:01] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 6
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[16:28:17] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 7
[16:30:39] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 8: Adopt?
[16:31:13] <Benno Overeinder> Relaying questions for attendees *not* using webex chat to ask questions.
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[16:31:47] <Benno Overeinder> EKR on the mic.
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[16:33:31] <Benno Overeinder> Jim Reid on the mic.
[16:33:51] <willem> padding maybe?
[16:34:27] <willem> Sorry ignore that remark about padding
[16:34:46] <Benno Overeinder> Ben Schwartz on the mic.
[16:35:04] <ekr@jabber.org> Glad to have Ben be saying different!
[16:35:32] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Is it "doesn't apply" or "has a bootstrapping issue"?
[16:35:48] <ekr@jabber.org> I think it's "has a complicated unsolved bootstrapping issue"
[16:36:47] <Benno Overeinder> We do hear Cristian.
[16:37:08] <Ben Schwartz> Thanks.  I'll log out and log back in
[16:38:46] <Benno Overeinder> Christian agrees with Ben Schwartz : recursive to authoritative most benefit.
[16:39:17] <ekr@jabber.org> Doesn't DoDTLS not have head of line blocking?
[16:39:20] <Benno Overeinder> Ted Hardie on the mic.
[16:39:41] <ekr@jabber.org> My understanding is that if you have no packet loss, then DoQ and DoDTLS should have very similar performance properties
[16:39:44] Ben Schwartz figured out the audio problem
[16:40:28] <ekr@jabber.org> (or rather DoDTLS 1.3)
[16:40:48] <hardie> @ekr for which use case?
[16:40:55] <Benno Overeinder> Call for adoption will be taken to the mailing list in the next days/week.
[16:41:00] <ekr@jabber.org> @hardie: for any use case?
[16:41:03] <jhoyla> Given the work on H3 and DoH, how much work is it to specify DoH3?
[16:41:03] <Ben Schwartz> If you have no packet loss, surely DoT and DoQ also have very similar performance
[16:41:12] <Ben Schwartz> jhoyla: zero
[16:41:14] <Benno Overeinder> Alessandro Ghedini, presenting
[16:41:16] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 2
[16:41:25] <Ben Schwartz> (It's implicitly specified automatically)
[16:41:43] <Benno Overeinder> Presentation title: Using Early Data in DNS over TLS
[16:41:45] <jhoyla> @Ben Schwartz that's what I would have guessed, but gremlins abound.
[16:41:57] <ekr@jabber.org> It's been a while since I looked at DoDTLS but don't you just send the ordinary UDP packets over DTLS, hence no HOLB
[16:42:10] <Ben Schwartz> Yes
[16:42:29] <ekr@jabber.org> (It's hard to compare DoQ do DoDTLS in the case of packet loss because then it's about QUIC versus DNS retransmission schedule)
[16:42:31] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 3
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[16:43:15] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 4
[16:43:41] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 5
[16:45:00] <ekr@jabber.org> @hardie: have I misunderstood how things work?
[16:45:19] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 6
[16:46:14] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 7: WG adoption?
[16:46:30] <Benno Overeinder> Relaying questions to Webex.
[16:46:49] <Benno Overeinder> Ben Kaduk on mic.
[16:47:07] <Eric Vyncke> Ben "must be invoked thrice" ;-)
[16:47:15] <ekr@jabber.org> I'm not sure if I disagree with Ben here, but I think a whitelist is fine
[16:47:18] <Benno Overeinder> :-)
[16:48:14] <Benno Overeinder> Christian on the mic.
[16:48:21] <jhoyla> Surely responses can change if the underlying DNS record is updated?
[16:48:39] <jhoyla> So you can never be sure that a DNS query will always give the same response.
[16:48:51] <hardie> @ekr I thnk your point on retransmission timing is a good one.  I do also think, though, that DoQ could be specified in a way that makes concurrent queries more efficient than DoDTLS  (which currently limits concurrent sessions and demuxes on message id).
[16:49:17] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> evyncke: Yeah, I'm trying to review documents for the telechat, so may
not be paying attention for the full discussion...
[16:49:17] <ekr@jabber.org> Seems like we could relax that restriction though, no?
[16:49:50] <hardie> @ekr I confess to a different preference interfering though, which is that I'm hoping that this takes advantage of QUIC transport stacks becoming common in both use and understanding.
[16:50:10] <hardie> @ekr  Yes, we could
[16:50:26] <ekr@jabber.org> @hardie: Well, you'll notice that I didn't say "You don't need DoQ because of DoDTLS". I'm just trying to get the facts straight
[16:50:52] <Benno Overeinder> Call for adoption of the draft to the mailing list.
[16:51:26] <Benno Overeinder> Next up: Daniel Migault, Signaling resolver's filtering policies
[16:51:48] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 2
[16:52:15] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 3
[16:52:23] <Benno Overeinder> URL to presentation: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-dprive-01/materials/slides-interim-2020-dprive-01-sessa-filtering-signaling-policies
[16:52:52] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 4
[16:53:25] <Christian Huitema> @ekr the main difference with DTLS is indeed the use of QUIC's recovery. But there are others: use of open stream limit for flow control, or coalescing of multiple stream frames in a single packet to carry several queries or several responses in a single datagram.
[16:53:40] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 5
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[16:54:14] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 6
[16:55:28] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 7
[16:55:32] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 8]
[16:56:23] <Benno Overeinder> Slide 9
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[16:58:27] <rro> You could support multiple filtering policies by using a bitmask instead of a single number
[16:58:33] <Benno Overeinder> Questions?
[16:58:53] <rro> Also, I don't understand why do you need the resolver domain name in the client request
[16:58:59] <Benno Overeinder> @rro: relaying your question?
[16:59:15] <rro> @Benno: Yes, please
[16:59:43] <Amelia Andersdotter> in practice i suppose the jurisdiction would normally require that the jurisdiction of the client is the one.
[16:59:49] <rro> @Benno: My name is Rafael Obelheiro, BTW
[16:59:59] <Benno Overeinder> Thanks.
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[17:03:14] <Benno Overeinder> @rro, is resolver domain name question answered for you now?
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[17:06:04] <ek> @ekr: +1
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[17:06:29] <vladimir.cunat> I also missed a few seconds from EKR.
[17:06:50] <ek> I think All resolvers will end up having to say they do filtering because all resolvers and all clients exist within *some* jurisdiction
[17:07:43] <ekr@jabber.org> Did I just get totally lost?
[17:07:47] <ekr@jabber.org> I am hearing silence
[17:07:57] <ek> your audio seemed to be coming and going a bit, to me at least
[17:08:34] <rro> @Benno: Yes
[17:08:46] <ericorth> @ekr: Correct.  Chrome has its own Do53 stub resolver.  But we still use the system resolver in many cases, so getaddrinfo() capabilities are still part of our concerns.
[17:10:02] <ekr@jabber.org> @ericorth: thanks!
[17:10:19] <ekr@jabber.org> Sounds like my points were getting lost, so here is what I was trying to say
[17:10:39] <ekr@jabber.org> 1. I don't think having this kind of detailed information is going to be that useful because I doubt clients will want to expose it to their users.
[17:10:45] <ekr@jabber.org> (or otherwise act on ie)
[17:11:07] <ekr@jabber.org> 2. Any mechanism that cannot be invoked via getaddrinfo() or similar is a nonstarter for us, at least
[17:12:11] <ekr@jabber.org> It looks to me like the requesting version specified in S 5 has the same problem
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[17:18:51] <Eric Vyncke> @Ben S: +1
[17:18:53] <ekr@jabber.org> +1 on ben's point about a single mechanism
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[17:19:39] <Vittorio Bertola> I'm actually waiting for the ADD version of resinfo, which was expected to come soon...
[17:20:09] <ChrisBox> I agree with Ben too; would be preferable to learn all you need to know about a resolver in one go.
[17:20:12] <Ben Schwartz> This draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-information/
[17:22:07] <ericorth> If RESINFO is adopted by ADD and filtering policies becomes an extension of that, I think filtering policies would then become much more reasonable for ADD.
[17:22:46] <Vittorio Bertola> @Ben I asked Paul Hoffman about that draft some time ago. I understand the draft should be ADD-ized making sure it is in line with the narrow charter, and resubmitted to ADD soon. But I hope I understood correctly.
[17:23:18] <Ben Schwartz> Good
[17:23:29] <Ben Schwartz> I look forward to that.
[17:23:53] <Ben Schwartz> [Hearing silence from ek]
[17:23:55] <Vittorio Bertola> I also think that that draft is a good starting point for a workable discovery mechanism, though I have input on the actual mechanisms in the current version :-)
[17:24:03] <Ben Schwartz> Me too :)
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[17:25:08] <rro> @Benno Thanks.
[17:25:37] <Benno Overeinder> Sorry I forgot to mention your name Rafael.
[17:25:57] <ek> webex told me I was unmuted but didn't tell me it couldn't find my mic
[17:26:18] <rro> @Benno No problem
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[17:27:17] <hardie> Prop 65 problem, in California?
[17:27:24] <Warren Kumari> +lots to erik
[17:28:05] <Warren Kumari> Oooooh! You could add the citizenship in an EDNS0 option...
[17:28:31] <Warren Kumari> I could also add my SSN / passport ID so you can verify me...
[17:28:41] <Benno Overeinder> :-)
[17:29:48] <vladimir.cunat> Now I get why it needs to be in DPRIVE.
[17:30:17] <Benno Overeinder> Blue sheets: https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-interim-2020-dprive-01?useMonospaceFont=true
[17:30:43] <Benno Overeinder> Brian: Two calls for adoption are send to the mailing list.
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[17:30:59] <Brian Haberman> Thanks, Benno!
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[17:31:04] <Benno Overeinder> Session ended.
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[17:31:26] <Benno Overeinder> You are welcome!
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