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[02:01:24] <Brian Haberman> Starting the meeting with me under the bus...
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[02:01:47] <Dan York> :-)
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[02:01:54] <ted.h> If you need something reflected to the room, please put mic: in front.
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[02:02:02] <sftcd> how's that bus look from underneath Brian?
[02:02:03] <ted.h> We're on the  chair slides, slide 7
[02:02:24] <Brian Haberman> @sftcd: a bit dirty. ;)
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[02:03:38] <Brian Haberman> In other words, we won't publish it as an RFC.
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[02:10:22] <sftcd> wanting dnssec is fine, requiring it is harder though
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[02:19:53] <ted.h> Aren't all cafes kind of sketchy from an IT security perspective.  I'm trying to imagine one I would trust, and kind of failing.
[02:20:53] <Dan York> This is an interesting approach.
[02:22:32] <ted.h> Reminder:  If you want something reflected to the room, please add "mic" to the front of your comment.
[02:23:17] <Dan York> Github repo: https://github.com/tfpauly/draft-pauly-adaptive-dns-privacy
[02:23:34] <ted.h> Tim with questions from the front mic.
[02:24:02] <Petr Špaček> mic: I'm against adoption in its current form. Basically this is combination of custom-made Tor network limited to DNS + auto-configuration magic on top. At the same time latest research in privacy field has shown that hiding only DNS traffic does not actually help much because just *set of server IP addresses*                                                         reveals client is connecting to is sufficient to reveal what web site client is accessing. For this reason this humongous complexity is *not* justified. I will post exact reference to the research article.
[02:24:06] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[02:24:33] <Petr Špaček> Article: "What Can You Learn from an IP?". Authors: Simran Patil and Nikita Borisov, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Link ANRW presentation and article: https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/program.html
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[02:28:36] <ted.h> Stephen at the mic
[02:30:10] <ted.h> Lorenzo at the mic
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[02:32:18] <ted.h> Ben at the mic
[02:33:21] <ted.h> (Could hear the name, sorry)
[02:33:40] <Petr Špaček> Ralf Weber at the mic
[02:34:10] <John Levine> Vittorio Bertola at mc
[02:36:49] <ted.h> Moving to Oblivious DoH presentation, Chris Wood presenting.
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[02:46:21] <sftcd> the cost of this vs. Tor is probably worth a thought, gotta be getting close
[02:49:02] <ted.h> Paul at the mic
[02:49:58] <ted.h> Ralf at the mic
[02:50:45] <Petr Špaček> mic: Limiting ourselves to DNS is not going to help privacy for reasons stated in previous discussion, let's try Oblivious HTTP/transport.
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[02:52:23] <ted.h> Tiru was after Ralf and before Petr
[02:52:28] <ted.h> Stephen at the mic now.
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[02:53:28] <ted.h> Mike Bishop at the mic
[02:54:22] <ted.h> Lorenzo at the mic
[02:54:35] <ted.h> (Wait, still Mike)
[02:54:48] <ted.h> Now Lorenzo
[02:55:25] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[02:55:26] <sftcd> 1st two pressies today seem to me like excellent things with which to experiment but unlikely to be ready for standards track now (unless being standards-track is what's needed to get people to do the experiments)
[02:56:28] <ted.h> Tiru  is up next with DNS server privacy policy with assertion token
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[02:57:06] <Brian Haberman> @sftcd: I would hope we wouldn't need standards-track in order to experiment.
[02:58:55] <sftcd> @brian, me too, but people are weird sometimes;-)
[02:59:45] <ted.h> I don't understand the incentives around auditor attestations.  
[03:00:50] <sftcd> auditor gets paid therefore auditor issues attestation?
[03:02:11] <ted.h> Alex at the mic
[03:02:19] <sftcd> looks like the webby folks might not like this;-)
[03:02:33] <ted.h> Mnot at the mic
[03:02:42] <ted.h> (Mark Nottingham)
[03:03:26] <ted.h> Ben at the mic
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[03:06:37] <ted.h> On legal meanings being different from what you might expect, a fun example: http://vickilanemysteries.blogspot.com/2015/03/is-your-lawyer-daffy-down-dilly.html
[03:06:43] <ted.h> Vittorio at the mic
[03:07:51] <ted.h> Ekr at the mic
[03:07:55] <ted.h> (Eric Rescorla)
[03:10:47] <ted.h> Alissa at the mic
[03:10:56] <sftcd> fwiw, I think draft-reddy-dprive-dprive-privacy-policy seems unlikely to be useful
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[03:12:16] <ted.h> Moving to Alex and Jason
[03:12:24] <ted.h> And the phase2 requirements
[03:13:29] <ted.h> is the repo for the doucment
[03:13:32] <ted.h> https://github.com/alex-nicat/ietf-dprive-phase2-requirements
[03:13:38] <ted.h> is the repo for the document
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[03:16:03] <ted.h> Discussion: is anything missing from the Threat Model & Problem Statement
[03:16:19] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
[03:17:01] <Petr Špaček> mic: Maybe we should explicitly state that attacker who has access to *all* traffic is out of scope - again, in that case traffic analysis will give out almost all the data even without decrypting DNS traffic.
[03:17:49] <ted.h> Ben at the mic
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[03:18:56] <ted.h> Discussion: Is DoT always required?  Or is it possible in some use to have other mechanisms (e.g. QNAME minimization)?
[03:19:06] <ted.h> Ben at the mic
[03:19:59] <sftcd> first glance: seems ok to not use DoT to the root servers, or are there issues there too?
[03:20:50] <Brian Haberman> qname minimization to the root instead of DoT seems reasonable.
[03:20:51] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
[03:21:40] <sftcd> i could see that the root servers might like that written down somewhere, not sure that needs to be done by dprive though
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[03:22:39] <ted.h> Wes at the mic
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[03:23:48] <ted.h> Ralf at the mic
[03:24:08] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[03:25:16] <ted.h> Tim from the front mic
[03:25:36] <ted.h> Discussion:  Should this depend only on the DNS, or also on CAs?
[03:25:42] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
[03:25:58] <ted.h> Ben at the mic
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[03:27:26] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
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[03:28:23] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Going back to the question of machine readable policy. When I was in the practices group at VeriSign, we worked on exactly that
[03:28:59] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Machine readable policy is VERY common. Most international trade has used things like INCOTERMS NET30, etc.
[03:29:06] <ted.h> Christian at the mic
[03:29:47] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> And the decision of Chrome and Firefox to drop security signal seems to have rather more to do with their own commercial interest than the actual technology
[03:30:30] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
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[03:30:33] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Each time the discussion comes up, they refer back to the same set of sad studies with 18 participants in three groups of six
[03:31:53] <ted.h> dkg at the mic
[03:32:01] <ted.h> (Daniel Khan Gillmor)
[03:32:28] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> And the one they quote most often actually fond that users don't interpret the security signal correctly without training. Which is not the claim that is made.
[03:34:16] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
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[03:35:39] <ted.h> Alex steps away from the front to head out. (Safe travels!)
[03:35:43] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[03:36:07] <ted.h> Now discussing downgrade prevention and preferences
[03:36:45] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
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[03:39:01] <ted.h> ben at the mic
[03:40:25] <ted.h> Ralf at the mic
[03:41:15] <ted.h> dkg at the mic
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[03:42:05] <ted.h> Wes at the mic
[03:43:17] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[03:44:01] <ted.h> Patrick McManus at the mic
[03:44:43] <ted.h> Now discussing discovery
[03:45:09] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[03:45:38] <ted.h> Wes at the mic
[03:45:53] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
[03:46:21] <ted.h> Next steps: make the changes and revise the draft
[03:46:56] <ted.h> Tim from the front: adopt after the update
[03:47:20] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
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[03:50:11] <ted.h> Patrick at the mic
[03:50:55] <ted.h> Paul Hoffman at the mic
[03:51:10] <Brian Haberman> We can get cross-area review without requesting publication as an RFC.
[03:51:56] <ted.h> ekr at the mic
[03:52:23] <ted.h> Brian at the mic
[03:53:07] <Petr Špaček> @ted.h Thank you for excellent scribing work and patience with my long comments. It's 4 AM here so I'm not able to formulate concise answers :-)
[03:53:24] <ted.h> @Petr Happy to do it; thanks for your contributions.
[03:53:34] <ted.h> Tim speaking from the front.
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[03:53:55] <Petr Špaček> Safe travels everyone!
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[03:54:03] <Brian Haberman> Safe travels, all!
[03:54:05] <ted.h> We are done; see you on the list
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