IETF
dprive@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, July 24, 2015< ^ >
Dan York 2 has set the subject to: DPRIVE at IETF92
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[06:49:03] <bortzmeyer> Subject obsolete :-) https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/93/agenda/dprive/
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[06:59:42] <Melinda Shore> There's an audio quality problem.
[07:01:34] <bortzmeyer> Pictures taken at a privacy working group?
[07:02:26] <tjw.ietf > I know Stephane
[07:02:29] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[07:02:39] Francis Dupont joins the room
[07:02:46] <Melinda Shore> Okay, better.
[07:02:56] Barry Leiba joins the room
[07:03:13] <Francis Dupont> BTW it is IETF93 now
[07:03:28] <tjw.ietf > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-93-dprive?useMonospaceFont=true
[07:03:29] Francis Dupont has set the subject to: DPRIVE at IETF93
[07:03:34] <tjw.ietf > Stephane, I can assist
[07:03:59] Peter Koch joins the room
[07:04:12] Christian joins the room
[07:04:27] Peter Koch will act as scribe and relay, usual protocol, pls prepend "mic:" if you want a relay
[07:05:43] <bortzmeyer> tjw.ietf: on the etherpad
[07:06:04] <Peter Koch> anybody not in the meeting room?
[07:07:39] Rik Ribbers joins the room
[07:07:41] <tjw.ietf > I think Melinda is not here.
[07:08:17] <Peter Koch> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-2.pdf
[07:08:37] <Peter Koch> Paul Hoffman @mike
[07:08:46] Petr Andreev joins the room
[07:09:36] Mankin, Allison joins the room
[07:10:24] <Peter Koch> slide 4
[07:10:46] <Mankin, Allison> Dan Wing is talking about dnsodtls.  Paul Hoffman said that anycast changes the RTT performance, Dan Wing says he'll send some packet flows to explain this better
[07:10:49] <Melinda Shore> No, I'm in Alaska.
[07:11:29] <Peter Koch> Paul Hoffman @mic
[07:12:19] <bortzmeyer> It's not just anycast: if crypto state is in memory and the server reboots, we have the same issue
[07:12:37] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[07:13:14] <Peter Koch> wes hardaker @mic
[07:13:38] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[07:14:07] <Peter Koch> dan wing, presenter, responding
[07:15:20] <Peter Koch> glen wiley @mic
[07:16:43] <Peter Koch> andrew sullivan @mic
[07:17:00] <Peter Koch> anycast globally vs intra datacenter
[07:17:25] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[07:17:42] <Peter Koch> "size of packet" argument
[07:17:52] bortzmeyer leaves the room
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[07:18:06] <Peter Koch> John heidemann @mic
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[07:18:38] <Peter Koch> stephane @mic
[07:18:47] <Peter Koch> says wifi is down, so yopuu wont read this ;-)
[07:18:55] <Peter Koch> s/yopuu/you/
[07:19:01] Barry Leiba joins the room
[07:19:05] <Peter Koch> slide 5
[07:19:13] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[07:19:20] <Christian> Wi-Fi is down for Stephane, but the 5GHz is up
[07:19:48] <Peter Koch> yaov nir (sp) @mic
[07:19:52] bortzmeyer joins the room
[07:20:06] <bortzmeyer> Network is back for me
[07:20:27] <bortzmeyer> Do we have *hard* data on whether a new port is more often blocked than non-DNS traffic on port 53?
[07:20:28] Peter van Dijk joins the room
[07:20:37] <Peter Koch> cathy almond @mic
[07:21:02] <Peter Koch> paul hoffman @mic
[07:21:49] <Peter Koch> pul wouters @mic
[07:22:04] <Peter Koch> oops, "paul", apologies
[07:22:07] <tjw.ietf > Stephane, we have *hard* data
[07:22:20] <tjw.ietf > we dont; have
[07:22:21] <Peter Koch> slide 6 of https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-2.pdf
[07:22:40] Jim Galvin joins the room
[07:22:45] <Peter Koch> now slide 8
[07:23:22] <Peter Koch> slide 9
[07:23:23] <bortzmeyer> tjw.ietf : ?
[07:23:41] <Peter Koch> btw, numbers only on published material, not in in room screen
[07:23:51] <Peter Koch> mark andrews @mic
[07:24:32] <Peter Koch> peter van dijk @mic, slide 10
[07:25:24] <Peter Koch> christian huitema, now paul hoffman @mic
[07:25:55] <Peter Koch> slide 11
[07:26:46] <Peter Koch> slide 13
[07:26:51] <Peter Koch> (12 skipped)
[07:28:01] <Peter Koch> sam weiler @mic
[07:28:23] <Peter Koch> allison @mic
[07:28:47] <Peter Koch> shane kerr @mic
[07:29:20] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[07:30:33] <Peter Koch> shane back @mic
[07:30:49] ogud@jabber.org joins the room
[07:30:52] <Peter Koch> sara dickinson @mic
[07:31:08] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[07:31:40] <Peter Koch> next up is https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-1.pdf
[07:31:57] <Peter Koch> (but we're still at DNS over DTLS)
[07:32:18] DanYork joins the room
[07:32:22] <Peter Koch> mark andrews @mic
[07:32:35] <Melinda Shore> Thanks, Peter - this is great.
[07:32:36] Shoji Noguchi joins the room
[07:33:00] <Peter van Dijk> yes, awesome scribing
[07:33:28] <Peter Koch> FIN
[07:33:41] <Peter Koch> John Dickinson @mic
[07:33:55] <Peter Koch> running code? Dan: no
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[07:34:56] <Peter Koch> so, now really FIN
[07:34:59] Mankin, Allison leaves the room
[07:35:58] <Peter Koch> chair had asked for readers of the draft - roughly half of 50 - anybody else remote?
[07:36:04] <Peter Koch> melinda?
[07:36:09] <Peter van Dijk> (the dtls draft)
[07:36:10] <Peter Koch> now for real: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-1.pdf
[07:36:12] <Melinda Shore> Yup, I've read it.
[07:36:18] <Peter Koch> ok, tnx
[07:36:37] <Peter Koch> slide number 2, allison presenting
[07:36:39] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[07:36:52] <Jim Galvin> +1 read
[07:38:53] <healthyao2000> +1 read
[07:39:18] <Peter Koch> slide 3
[07:39:30] <Peter Koch> sorry, slide 4 already
[07:39:43] <Peter Koch> slide 5
[07:41:37] <Peter Koch> slide 6
[07:41:37] <bortzmeyer> 953 is used by BIND local control...
[07:43:04] <Peter Koch> slide 7
[07:43:06] Peter van Dijk leaves the room
[07:43:07] Peter van Dijk joins the room
[07:43:31] <Peter Koch> FIN, Q/A
[07:43:53] <Peter Koch> chair preparing hum
[07:44:02] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[07:44:19] <Peter Koch> audio issue, wait
[07:44:43] <Peter Koch> christian asking for threat analysis
[07:44:57] Peter van Dijk leaves the room
[07:45:11] Peter van Dijk joins the room
[07:46:00] <Peter Koch> up next https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-3.pdf
[07:46:05] <Peter Koch> stephane @mic
[07:46:52] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[07:47:50] <Peter Koch> paul hoffman @mic
[07:48:50] marco@nl joins the room
[07:49:14] <Peter Koch> tiru konda @mic
[07:49:16] <bortzmeyer> URL for the data Huitema just talked about?
[07:49:19] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[07:49:23] bortzmeyer leaves the room
[07:49:44] <Peter Koch> olafur @mic
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[07:49:59] <bortzmeyer> Network is not stable
[07:50:14] <bortzmeyer> URL for the data Huitema mentioned?
[07:50:43] Peter Koch @mic
[07:51:32] <Peter Koch> sara` @mic
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[07:52:28] <Peter Koch> alex mayrhofer @mic
[07:52:41] Petr Andreev joins the room
[07:53:13] <Peter Koch> dave crocker @mic
[07:55:10] <Christian> I will check whether we have public references to NAT and firewall traversal statistics.
[07:55:17] <Peter Koch> andrew @mic
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[07:56:37] <Peter Koch> dcrocker@mic
[07:56:41] <ogud@jabber.org> How about: just ask over port 53 "Send me SRV records for TLS/DTLS services" and then connect ?
[07:58:27] <Peter Koch> shane @mic
[07:59:12] <Peter Koch> andrew @mic, mic line closed
[07:59:45] <Peter Koch> watch https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-3.pdf after the commercials
[08:00:14] <Peter Koch> warren @mic
[08:00:36] <Peter Koch> paul hoffman @mic
[08:00:59] <Peter Koch> hum upcoming
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[08:01:29] <Peter Koch> yes, singlt - no, bad idea, 3rd: don't know enough
[08:01:42] Petr Andreev joins the room
[08:01:50] <Peter Koch> yes: we will  proceed with single port, drop start tls
[08:02:23] <Peter Koch> hum now for "yes" (new port)
[08:02:34] <Peter Koch> no  now
[08:02:54] <Peter Koch> don't know now
[08:02:56] <Jim Galvin> hum 3
[08:03:07] <Melinda Shore> hum 1
[08:03:40] Ted.h joins the room
[08:04:25] <Melinda Shore> Needs to go out to the mailing list, anyway.
[08:04:38] <Peter van Dijk> Warren appears to feel like going forward based on the hum, Melinda
[08:04:39] <Peter Koch> AD @mic
[08:04:43] <Peter van Dijk> (mentioning this in case of stream lag)
[08:04:44] <Peter Koch> AD == Terry
[08:05:01] <Peter Koch> new hum upcoming
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[08:05:43] <Peter Koch> the wg chairs gauge whether the wg believes early allocation
[08:05:57] <Peter Koch> AD: clarify on list
[08:06:03] <Jim Galvin> hum 1
[08:06:41] <Peter Koch> strong hum for early alloc
[08:07:02] <Peter Koch> those who need more info and know what they need ...
[08:07:04] <Peter Koch> staphena @mic
[08:07:11] <Peter Koch> ouch, Stephane
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[08:07:35] Petr Andreev joins the room
[08:07:46] <Peter Koch> paul wouters @mic
[08:08:39] <Peter Koch> paul hoffman @mic
[08:09:49] <Melinda Shore> There's a discussion of measuring middlebox presence over in HOPS at the moment.
[08:09:59] <Peter Koch> paul talking to pau; wouters, thus "you"
[08:10:07] <Peter Koch> want relay?
[08:10:25] <bortzmeyer> Peter Koch: blame Larsen, not me :-)
[08:10:47] johnh joins the room
[08:11:26] <Melinda Shore> HOPS
[08:11:41] <Melinda Shore> That's the one.
[08:11:48] <Peter Koch> tnx, melinda
[08:11:59] <Peter Koch> next presentation : https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-3.pdf
[08:12:12] <Peter Koch> allison continuing
[08:12:26] <Peter Koch> slide 2
[08:13:21] <Peter Koch> slide 3
[08:13:36] <Ted.h> I'm wondering if our "third hum" structure is wrong.  Perhaps instead of "Who thinks they don't have enough information to make a decision" to "who things we should block on this decision now"?  There may be a significant number who don't think they have enough data, but are willing to go forward on the basis that others know or the decision can be backed out later.
[08:14:22] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[08:15:12] <Peter Koch> slide 4
[08:15:52] <weiler> Ted.h++
[08:16:15] <Peter Koch> slide 5
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[08:17:29] <Peter Koch> slide 6
[08:17:39] <Peter Koch> final slide; up next: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-4.pdf
[08:18:15] <Peter Koch> FIN, Q/A, asking for adoption
[08:18:35] <Peter Koch> who's read it?
[08:18:38] <tjw.ietf > small number of hands
[08:18:43] <Peter Koch> 5ish
[08:18:49] <Melinda Shore> I have
[08:18:50] <Andrew Sullivan> I didn't read this version, but I read earlier ones
[08:18:53] <Peter Koch> who will read?
[08:19:00] <Andrew Sullivan> Ran out of time
[08:19:07] <tjw.ietf > small number of hands
[08:20:11] <tjw.ietf > medium sized hum on possible adoption
[08:20:12] <Melinda Shore> yes
[08:20:17] <Peter Koch> who thinks it should be adopted - hum?
[08:20:19] <Jim Galvin> +1 read
[08:20:21] <Jim Galvin> +1 hum
[08:20:44] <tjw.ietf > larger hum to adopt than hum on reading it
[08:21:24] <Peter Koch> christian grothoff @mic
[08:21:47] <Peter Koch> next talk after the atvertisement ...
[08:21:57] <Peter Koch> wendy seltzer @mic
[08:22:44] Jim Galvin leaves the room
[08:22:48] <Peter Koch> end, next item on agenda : https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-4.pdf
[08:23:34] <Peter Koch> slide 2, paul wouters presenting
[08:24:48] Mankin, Allison joins the room
[08:25:07] <Peter Koch> slide 3
[08:25:16] <bortzmeyer> If you don't trust the coffee shop, don't drink the coffee! It's much more risky than being snooped on.
[08:25:43] <Peter Koch> slide 4
[08:26:57] <Peter Koch> slide 5
[08:27:28] <Mankin, Allison> @tjw.ietf, Warren - we forgot to mention that the TLS draft authors would like to request that you consider WGLC in the Autumn.  We feel that the 02 draft will be stable and ready for that.  
[08:27:33] <Peter Koch> slide 6
[08:28:08] <Peter Koch> slide 7 (final slide), next will be demo
[08:28:38] <Peter Koch> ok, so demo cancelled, will be available to those present on indivudual base
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[08:28:42] <Peter Koch> Q/A
[08:28:45] <Peter Koch> John Dickinson @ic
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[08:29:07] <tjw.ietf > @allison - thanks. I'll make a note in the minutes
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[08:31:46] <Peter Koch> paul hoffman @mic
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[08:32:26] <Peter Koch> warren @mic
[08:32:46] <Peter Koch> phoffman @mic
[08:32:54] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
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[08:36:22] <Peter Koch> matt pounsett @mic
[08:38:34] <Peter Koch> john heidemann @mic
[08:40:10] <Peter Koch> liman @mic
[08:41:28] <Peter Koch> leif johansson @mic
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[08:42:28] <Peter Koch> shane @mic
[08:43:21] <Petr Andreev> may be i missed something and my quetion was already answered, but how it works with anycast?
[08:43:57] <Peter Koch> allison @mic
[08:44:12] <Peter Koch> @petr: need relay?
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[08:44:40] <Andrew Sullivan> This is intended to be only stub-recursive, I think, and they're rarely anycast
[08:44:48] <Andrew Sullivan> (though theres no real reason for that, of course)
[08:44:49] <johnh> anycast was not discussed by the speaker, but i think one could insert the usual arguments: anycast changes are fairly rare, and you can detect failures and do restart
[08:45:58] <Andrew Sullivan> Well, ok, "rarely" probably overstates it
[08:46:01] <Peter Koch> phoffman @mic
[08:46:11] <Peter van Dijk> >50% of recursive deployments I am aware of have something anycast-like
[08:46:19] <Peter van Dijk> (and also are not 'a xeon in a corner' as wouters typified it ;)
[08:46:21] <Andrew Sullivan> but anyway, I think that the waving away of anycast changes is a mistake
[08:46:22] Mankin, Allison joins the room
[08:46:41] <Peter van Dijk> agreed, anycast is relevant, so are reboots or randomly restarting daemons, similar results
[08:46:54] <Andrew Sullivan> yeah, that's also what I worry about
[08:47:36] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
[08:47:58] Mankin, Allison leaves the room
[08:48:02] <Andrew Sullivan> I do think that the stub-to-GoogleDNS case is obviously a problem, and the (internal) numbers I've seen suggest to me that this is nowhere near as stable as people seem to think
[08:48:31] <Ted.h> @Andrew what's the time scale of the instability?
[08:49:06] <Andrew Sullivan> When it's stable, it's stable for a long time; when stability is interrupted, there's a great deal of instability for at least minutes
[08:49:16] <Peter van Dijk> and if you ECMP every query goes somewhere else
[08:49:31] <Peter van Dijk> (or loadbalance without BGP)
[08:49:36] <Andrew Sullivan> This is more noticible in some parts of the world than others
[08:49:52] <Peter Koch> phoffman @mic
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[08:50:36] <Peter Koch> FIN
[08:50:55] <Peter Koch> chairs deliberating ...
[08:51:21] weiler leaves the room
[08:51:37] <Peter Koch> surprise: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dprive-5.pdf
[08:52:06] <Peter Koch> alex presenting
[08:52:40] <Peter Koch> EDNS padding
[08:52:49] <Peter Koch> phoffman @mic: certs with domain names
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[08:53:41] <Peter Koch> alex, slide 2
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[08:55:39] <Peter Koch> slide 3
[08:56:47] <Peter Koch> slide 4
[08:57:34] <Peter Koch> slide 5, final slide
[08:59:50] Peter Koch at mic
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[09:00:55] <Peter Koch> christian huitema @mic
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[09:03:15] <Peter Koch> olafur @mic
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[09:04:20] <Peter Koch> liman @mic
[09:04:36] <Peter Koch> sara dickinson @mic
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[09:05:13] <Peter Koch> mark andrews @mic
[09:05:51] <Peter Koch> sara @mic
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[09:06:38] <Peter Koch> phoffman @mic
[09:08:47] <Peter Koch> olafur @mic
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[09:09:20] <Peter Koch> AD @mic
[09:09:24] <Peter Koch> agrees
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[09:09:56] <Peter Koch> wg session closed
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