IETF
doh
doh@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 22, 2018< ^ >
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[13:36:21] <meetecho> Looks like the chairs decided to bypass the splitter: this means we won't be able to stream the slides to remote attendees, and they won't appear in the recordings either
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[13:36:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> Hi all I'll be the jabber scribe for this session, if you want me to bring a comment to the mic please preface with MIC:
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[13:36:49] <Suzanne (scribe)> I'll try to keep URLs for the current preso in the jabber as well
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[13:37:27] <Suzanne (scribe)> all of the meeting materials are linked from https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/ under "doh"
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[13:37:45] <Suzanne (scribe)> agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-doh-03
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[13:38:31] <Suzanne (scribe)> speaker: Stephane Bortzmeyer
[13:38:49] <Suzanne (scribe)> slides; https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-doh-future-work-and-rechartering-00 (I think; a/v cable on the way but no slides yet)
[13:39:20] <Kal Feher> I'm not sure that the microphone is working at the front.
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[13:40:26] <Suzanne (scribe)> actually, wrong slide deck, sorry. Hackathon slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-doh-hackathon-feedback-01
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[13:42:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> Paul Hoffman at the mic
[13:43:15] <Suzanne (scribe)> Mark Nottingham at the mic
[13:43:56] <Suzanne (scribe)> Tom Pusateri to the mic
[13:44:52] <Suzanne (scribe)> Patrick McManus
[13:45:49] <Suzanne (scribe)> Tom Pusateri
[13:46:17] <Suzanne (scribe)> Tony Finch at the mic
[13:46:41] <Suzanne (scribe)> (Two A/V guys at front of the room….always nervous-making.)
[13:47:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> pause for A/V work to finish and Patrick's slides o status of the draft
[13:47:44] <Suzanne (scribe)> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-doh-draft-status-01
[13:48:37] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "Recap"
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[13:49:55] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "Wait!" (3)
[13:50:59] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "04 details" (4)
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[13:53:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "Game Plan" (5)
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[13:54:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "Issue #82" (6)
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[13:57:40] <Suzanne (scribe)> feedback requested on this issue
[13:57:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> Mark Nottingham at the mic
[13:59:42] <Suzanne (scribe)> Martin Thomson
[14:00:26] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dan Gillmor
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[14:02:27] <Suzanne (scribe)> Mark Nottingham
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[14:06:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide "issue #48"
[14:06:50] <lucaspardue> related to hackathon discussion: Is there a list of the DoH implementations available anywhere?
[14:07:37] <Suzanne (scribe)> now looking for feedback on mandatory to implement
[14:07:45] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart Cheshire
[14:08:24] <Daniel Stenberg> lucas: I've not seen any conveniently collected list yet...
[14:08:29] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ray Bellis
[14:08:31] <fanf> https://github.com/IETF-Hackathon/ietf101-project-presentations/tree/master/DoH
[14:08:57] <lucaspardue> thanks tony!
[14:10:09] <Suzanne (scribe)> that was Martin Thomson, now Andrew Sullivan
[14:13:10] <Suzanne (scribe)> Olafur Gudmundsson (apologies for misspelling)
[14:13:41] <Daniel Stenberg> Ólafur Guðmundsson =)
[14:13:51] <Suzanne (scribe)> thanks :)
[14:14:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> Martin Thomson at the mic
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[14:16:12] <Suzanne (scribe)> response from Paul Hoffman (at front)
[14:17:44] <danyork> lucaspardue: There's info about public servers listed on the Hackathon presentation page: https://github.com/IETF-Hackathon/ietf101-project-presentations/tree/master/DoH
[14:18:36] <danyork> 5 public DOH servers listed
[14:19:23] <Suzanne (scribe)> Patrick (at front): any other open issues before WGLC?
[14:20:32] <Suzanne (scribe)> (anyone heard current speaker's name?)
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[14:21:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dan Gillmor at the mic
[14:22:27] <Suzanne (scribe)> Topic: re-chartering and new work
[14:22:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-doh-future-work-and-rechartering-00
[14:23:40] <Jason Polis> Would the JSON media type for DNS be within the current charter ?
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[14:23:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> @jason is that for then mic?
[14:23:54] <Jason Polis> sure
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[14:24:44] <Suzanne (scribe)> apparent answer is no :)
[14:24:46] <Jason Polis> thanks for clarity.
[14:25:11] <Suzanne (scribe)> Adam Roach, as the Area Director, is not sure he agrees with the chair
[14:25:24] <Suzanne (scribe)> Erik Nygren
[14:27:00] <Suzanne (scribe)> Patrick McManus as httpbis co-chair
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[14:27:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ólafur Guðmundsson
[14:27:51] <resnick> Excellent typing there. :-)
[14:28:16] <Suzanne (scribe)> Even better cut&paste :)
[14:29:28] <Suzanne (scribe)> Chair: discovery as a possible topic for new work that people have shown interest in, e.g. bootstrapping a connection to a doh server based only on domain name or IP address
[14:29:41] <Suzanne (scribe)> Paul Hoffman at the mic
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[14:30:20] <Suzanne (scribe)> andrew Sullivan
[14:31:16] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dan Gillmor
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[14:33:44] <Suzanne (scribe)> Chair: Dan Gillmor is here as our motivational speaker, since it sounds like we're done with doh
[14:34:05] <Suzanne (scribe)> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-doh-opportunistic-dns-00
[14:35:29] <Suzanne (scribe)> "Would you accept a DNS record from this guy?" (slide 3)
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[14:35:48] <resnick> Looks like a nice enough guy to me.
[14:35:58] <resnick> Well dressed and all.
[14:36:06] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 4
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[14:37:06] <ajs> Isn't this the way we got DNS poison?
[14:37:37] <Suzanne (scribe)> But *signed* DNS poison now….?
[14:37:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> modern technology....
[14:37:59] <resnick> @as: not seeing how.
[14:38:12] <resnick> Not any worse, anyway.
[14:38:41] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 6
[14:38:45] <resnick> I wouldn’t cache these if they weren’t signed.
[14:39:17] <Edward Lewis> The problem with the opportunistic record delivery is that it assumes the private key hasn't been exposed.  Current DNS set up makes it hard to deliver falsely signed data.
[14:39:25] <resnick> Q for http people: Can you send unsolicited responses in http?
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[14:39:56] <Thom Peterson> resnick: with H2 push, yes, you can push assets that may/may not be needed
[14:40:16] <aaron> TTL?
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[14:40:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> didn't catch current speaker's name, sorry
[14:40:42] <resnick> So I could conceivably send a DOH response even if it wasn’t asked for?
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[14:42:24] <lucaspardue> @resnick: I wrote a individual draft that might support your case, it is imperfect but feasible - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pardue-quic-http-unbound-server-push-00
[14:42:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dan York
[14:42:51] <Edward Lewis> DNSSEC signed isn't enough
[14:43:49] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew Sullivan
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[14:45:42] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dan Gillmor replies
[14:46:31] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave Lawrence
[14:46:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> Patrick McManus
[14:48:16] <=JeffH> 9 folks in mic queue, including patrick m.
[14:49:36] <ajs> But once we're doing all this HTTPS stuff, why in the world do we want the DNS involved?  There are _lots of problems_ with the DNS, and this feels to me a lot like something cool but still a bad idea
[14:50:12] <resnick> Not clear to me that he really wants the client DNS involved.
[14:50:32] <ajs> But the DNS wire format is also kind of wrong for this
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[14:50:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> (didn't catch current speaker's name, sorry)
[14:51:10] <ajs> for instance, the fact that there's no real control plane/data plane separation
[14:51:20] <Samuel Weiler> sounds like a DOS amplifier.
[14:51:33] <resnick> This is David Schinazi
[14:51:36] <nygren > David Schinazi at the mic
[14:51:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> Shane Kerr now
[14:51:45] <ajs> which is why CNAME plus anything else doesn't work
[14:51:54] <Suzanne (scribe)> didn't recognize David's back, sitting in the wrong place, sorry
[14:52:27] <ajs> and every stub behind the DOH client needs to be rewritten
[14:52:29] <ajs> and so on
[14:52:54] <ajs> it's basically a new protocol
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[14:53:15] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ray Bellis
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[14:54:10] <resnick> @ajs: Yeah, I probably agree on that: No need for this to be DNS protocol. All you want is to get the IP addresses for the things that you would have gone to on the particular web page you just got.
[14:54:54] <resnick> (i.e., what Bron is now saying.)
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[14:55:08] <ajs> Right.  And DOH gets you the bootstrap, and what we need is a new names-and-identifiers protocol
[14:55:30] <ajs> It's maybe "NOH": Names Over HTTP.
[14:55:50] <ajs> I wish ! was a legal WG name character.
[14:55:59] <Suzanne (scribe)> @ ajs we can charter that at the same time as "DNS Over New Transport" (DONT)
[14:56:09] <Suzanne (scribe)> Warren Kumari
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[14:57:10] <Suzanne (scribe)> Jim Reid
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[14:58:06] <resnick> I think what’s catching in DNS people’s throats is that he keeps saying “using DNS” when I think he really means “using the addresses or other items normally retrieved from DNS”
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[15:00:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> @presnick or the "new names and identifiers protocol" ajs referred to
[15:00:35] <Jason Polis> mic: I haven't looked into this for a while.Would this use NS records to provide the IP address of the http server being used ?
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[15:02:19] <craigt> Jason Polis: I understand that to be one of the open questions as discovery is undefined. This was part of the chairs quastion about whether to recharter.
[15:02:42] <Jason Polis> I haven’t looked into this for a while ? Are regular NS records used to lookup DOH servers ? Which party would sign the Glue records are correctly signed ?
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[15:03:43] <resnick> I think Jason’s point is that you might want to know where the http server that’s giving the address where *it* got the address, hence wanting the NS record.
[15:03:46] <Martin Thomson> the poisoned happy eyebal
[15:03:56] <aaron> HTTP to poisoned camel eyeballs?
[15:04:08] <aaron> Happy Cabals?
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[15:04:17] <Martin Thomson> tis easier for the poisoned happy camel to pass through the eyeball of ... I ran out
[15:04:25] <resnick> 👁
[15:04:33] <aaron> :camel:
[15:04:38] <DavidSchinazi> I really like Happy Camel
[15:04:44] <m&m> 🐪
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[15:04:51] <Martin Thomson> DavidSchinazi: I didn't know you were a smoker
[15:05:03] <resnick> Now where are the combining characters for camel?
[15:05:31] <Suzanne (scribe)> Mark Nottingham
[15:05:50] <danyork> Hmmm..... HNS - HTTPS Name Service
[15:05:52] <aaron> combine(camel, straw)
[15:06:20] <craigt> HTTP PuNS
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[15:06:56] <craigt> (pushed named service)
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[15:10:31] <Martin Thomson> Selective Poisoning Or Opportunistic Naming
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[15:10:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> and we're….done…..
[15:10:34] <Martin Thomson> SPOON
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