IETF
dnsop
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Friday, November 12, 2021< ^ >
Benno Overeinder has set the subject to: IETF 112 DNSOP WG
Room Configuration
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[14:27:10] <Paul Hoffman_web_852> For us in California, 0630 is a lot easier than 0400
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[14:27:35] <Chris Lemmons_web_129> Maybe the shenanigans slept in. :D
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[14:28:25] <PE_web_491> shenanigans do require a minimum caffeine density to be achieved
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[14:28:58] <Paul Wouters_web_179> tap tap.. of course my ISP is back now i dont need to chair anymore
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[14:29:50] <Tim Wicinski_web_873> sad @paul sad.
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[14:30:15] <Tim Wicinski_web_873> you are welcome to act all bossy chair like if it helps.
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[14:30:26] <Tim Wicinski_web_873> (not that we'll pay attention)
[14:30:27] <Paul Wouters_web_179> :)
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[14:30:33] <Tom Carpay_web_411> perfect!
[14:30:34] <Tom Carpay_web_411> thanks
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[14:31:42] <Andrew Campling_web_103> It is chopped on teh right
[14:31:48] <Andrew Campling_web_103> *the
[14:31:53] <Jonathan Reed_web_902> I see the entire slide.
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[14:32:08] <Warren Kumari_web_927> It works fine for me...
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[14:32:16] <Andrew Campling_web_103> Me too now - have resized the window
[14:32:21] <Warren Kumari_web_927> I see IETF 112 , 11 Novemver 2021.
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[14:32:25] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> same, but normally resizing is not necessary
[14:32:32] <Warren Kumari_web_927> (except, without my typos :-))
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[14:34:01] <Willem Toorop_web_424> Catalog zones and Hackathon results are swapped
[14:34:02] <Tom Carpay_web_411> I won't be doing the DNS Catalog Zones, Benno!
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[14:37:53] <Benno Overeinder_web_188> The agenda on datatracker is correct.  My last minute changes to the chair's slide were incorrect. Sorry.
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[14:39:08] <Jim Reid_web_859> Warren, it might just be still 11/11 in Samoa or somewhere in that neighbourhood.
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[14:40:30] <Petr Špaček_web_694> Wait a minute, what does the chart mean? I got lost :facepalm:
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[14:41:15] <Ray Bellis_web_118> IIUC, it seems to indicate that ignoring the EDNS requirement not to send back unsolicited options is not universally adhered to.
[14:41:25] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_570> So 0.1% net impairment?
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[14:41:38] <Willem Toorop_web_424> Benjamin! Spot on!
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[14:41:42] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> All I see is noise, as more resolvers dropped the non-EDE response than the EDE response
[14:41:53] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> s/EDE/DERE/
[14:42:02] <Paul Hoffman_web_852> Mic line, folks
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[14:43:39] <Willem Toorop_web_424> Sorry I have to reload as my mic permission is not working
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[14:45:17] <Petr Špaček_web_694> The assumption is that breakage on resolvers (when resolver gets unsolicited EDNS option) is smaller than breakage on auths when they get an unknown option.
[14:45:34] <Ray Bellis_web_118> I withdraw my comment - that MUST NOT applies to the whole OPT RR, not individual options.
[14:45:41] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> The text from Roy that Willem just read out was a direct quote from me, so you can blame me if you want ;)
[14:46:04] <Petr Špaček_web_694> @Ray +1
[14:46:08] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> Ray, right, now you make sense
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[14:46:41] <Petr Špaček_web_694> I would say that error rate is below measurement error.
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[14:46:54] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> Clearly, as the error rate is negative :)
[14:47:01] <Ray Bellis_web_118> OTOH, an implementation that craps out on receipt of an unknown option is indeed out of compliance.
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[14:47:20] <Ray Bellis_web_118> (RFC 6891, §6.1.2)
[14:47:34] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> Yes, but many auths still do.
[14:47:49] <Petr Špaček_web_694> No it's not out of spec, see above.
[14:47:57] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_705> The difference between 73 and 95 is entirely within margin of error.
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[14:48:53] <Benno Overeinder_web_188> viktor, indeed
[14:48:57] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_570> Petr: I mean an authoritative that fails with unrecognized OPTs is clearly out of compliance.
[14:49:05] <Petr Špaček_web_694> Most importantly, the absolute values from RIPE Atlas are almost meaningless. We need large scale measurement because RIPE Atlas is most likely not representative. I invoke ghosts of APNIC people and pray for them to do the measurements, pretty please.
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[14:49:22] <Tom Carpay_web_411> +1
[14:49:25] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_570> Let's GREASE OPT!
[14:49:30] <Ray Bellis_web_118> "Any OPTION-CODE values not understood by a responder or requestor MUST be ignored"
[14:50:04] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Joao Damas is here so probably not a ghost :-)
[14:50:07] <Paul Wouters_web_179> catalog zones are awesome! running in production now for 3 months. some implementation / corner cases reported and fixed (by knot people). Looking forward to nsd support too :)
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[14:50:19] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> awesome, PaulW
[14:50:28] <Benno Overeinder_web_188> thanks au
[14:50:35] <Benno Overeinder_web_188> thanks paul, noted
[14:50:53] <Ray Bellis_web_118> We (ISC) also use catalog zones for many of our domains
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[14:51:29] <Petr Špaček_web_694> @Ben Okay, I can see what you mean. You are right, auths would be out of compliance in that case.
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[14:55:36] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> does anybody see slide 9? I see slide 8
[14:55:47] <Wes Hardaker_web_272> no, they stopped
[14:55:50] <Chris Lemmons_web_129> Likewise.
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[14:57:02] <Petr Špaček_web_694> @Tom Carpay A question still about your experiment: You added the option only if OPT RR was present in the query, right? (i.e. not added OPT RR if it was _not_ present in the query). Is that correct?
[14:57:12] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> no
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[14:57:23] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> the OPT is never present in queries
[14:57:25] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> just like EDE
[14:57:45] <Petr Špaček_web_694> @Peter read your own message again :-)
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[14:57:58] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> oh OPT RR
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[14:58:02] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> I made the same mistake as Ray did earlier :D
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[14:58:19] <Tom Carpay_web_411> @Petr, Yes!
[14:58:39] <Tom Carpay_web_411> we just added another option to it
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[15:02:10] <Richard Wilhelm_web_378> From a security context, interesting to consider this in the context of the earlier discussion in DANCE
[15:02:26] <Paul Wouters_web_179> @victor: zomemd :)
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[15:03:55] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> There's probably a threat model and environment where signing those zones makes lots of sense!
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[15:08:00] <Paul Wouters_web_179> IETF shouldn't put in expiry dates in any documents
[15:08:21] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> This is an observation date, though
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[15:09:32] <Petr Špaček_web_694> Agreed, it's start date - not expiry date.
[15:09:34] <Peter Koch_web_923> "enforcement" is rough language for an SDO that enjoys 'voluntary adoption of standards'
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[15:10:04] <Scott Hollenbeck_web_181> "It could say "at the time of this writing"
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[15:12:04] <Paul Wouters_web_179> dates are meaningless anyway between document publication, vendor implementation, vendor updates, customer updates ...
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[15:13:46] <Alexey Melnikov_web_384> “At the time of writing” is perfectly acceptable in RFCs. I’ve seen it in published RFCs.
[15:13:49] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Paul +1, I think we're on the right track though
[15:14:09] <Peter Koch_web_923> seriously: why is the choice of vaues addressed towards vendors rather than the relevant operators (implying that vendors have it configurable)? I understand 'default', but this emphasis is strange
[15:14:13] <Paul Wouters_web_179> acceptable but superfluous :)
[15:14:58] <Ralf Weber_web_847> Some vendors don't have it configurable ;-)
[15:15:06] <Paul Wouters_web_179> I thought they went to twitter to cry?
[15:15:17] <Peter Koch_web_923> this is still dns_op_, isnt' it?
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[15:15:53] <Petr Špaček_web_694> That's exactly why we are trying to find reliable defaults for operators.
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[15:19:22] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Worth mentioning status on this doc isn't set yet, and "not all RFCs are standards". Not a distinction people always use, but relevant to Peter's point: it may be better as informational or BCP, not standards track.
[15:19:29] <Paul Hoffman_web_852> Some of us do have a hard cutoff
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[15:19:51] <Benno Overeinder_web_188> sorry, you are right
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[15:20:37] <Petr Špaček_web_694> @Peter Koch: This really is a security issue, and the only way to avoid it is AFAIK to not use high iteration counts. Do you see a different way how to make clear without RFC? (I don't think it is a good idea to leave RFC 5155 as it is, because it explicitly allows insecure behavior).
[15:20:53] <Warren Kumari_web_927> @Suz/Peter: Yup. I think we do need to be careful with this/wording.
[15:21:33] <Petr Špaček_web_694> RFC 5155 has a glaring hole in it, so IMHO it ought to update 5155 - thus standards track...
[15:21:42] <Peter van Dijk_web_888> +1
[15:22:00] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> We can pursue offline, it has to be resolved before we can advance the draft. Happy to work on it.
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[15:23:42] <Warren Kumari_web_927> <100% no hats>I personally think that an RFC is right, and PS is also right, but we should still be careful with wording/language. There is a big difference between explaining why/MUST, and "We, the IETF have spoken thusly, and everyone must comply!!!!"
[15:23:45] <zulipbot> (Puneet Sood) I see the NSEC3 iterations document as being  similar to RFC8624 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8624). Recommending what auths should do to provide good security.
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[15:24:49] <Paul Hoffman_web_852> Boy it would be nice to see this much contribution on the WG mailing list!
[15:24:54] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Agreed Warren -- we know this isn't a good idea, but should it be a protocol violation?
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[15:26:28] <Petr Špaček_web_694> An alternative is to hide heads into sand, let vendors off hook do what vendors believe is right, and move into irrelevance. Works more "effectively" in long term when vendors do whatever without publication :shrug:
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[15:28:07] <Warren Kumari_web_927> Dunno. But even if it is, we still have to be careful with language. We can happily explain what operators and implementers and everyone else MUST do -- but we cannot really force compliance.
[15:28:10] <Paul Wouters_web_179> do meassurements of domain names that are not testing ones that are > 128 chars :)
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[15:29:03] <Paul Wouters_web_179> hashing of known unsigned domain names is just one rainbow table away
[15:29:16] <Paul Wouters_web_179> (its not even salted in any way)
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[15:30:12] <Paul Wouters_web_179> ahh good point. had not thought about that conn case
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[15:30:23] <Warren Kumari_web_927> If the IETF publishes and RFC saying that everyone MUST use 0 iterations, and e.g Petr configures his personal domain to use 3 (or 3000000), we can shake our fingers at him, but we (perhaps sadly) don't have guns, and cannot force him to change...
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[15:31:25] <Warren Kumari_web_927> I suspect that we are somewhat all in violent agreement....
[15:31:36] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> What "enforces" RFCs is that implementations can be protocol compliant and not handle their particular case because it's outside the standard
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[15:31:57] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Loss of interoperability is the only enforcement there really is.
[15:32:09] <Nils Wisiol_web_747> +1 for Paul's comment on rainbow tables
[15:32:26] <Petr Špaček_web_694> I'm really lost, I did not see anyone requesting enforcement: Of course IETF can do only words. Software is where enforcing compliance is done, if vendors see the need. Right now the software is enforcing non-published limit (unless user changes limits...). The WG can either make it documented or ignore. Vendors are most likely not going to open attack vector just to get into RFC 5155 compliance...
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[15:32:37] <John Levine_web_544> adopt without hash, please
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[15:33:10] <Peter Thomassen_web_925> Paul: your feedback on the hashing was highly welcome! thanks for kicking off the discussion
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[15:34:13] <Warren Kumari_web_927> @Petr: It is entirely possible that we wandered off track/went down a philosophical rathole :-)
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[15:34:31] <Suzanne Woolf_web_195> Warren and I do that at times, thx Petr
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[15:34:52] <Tim Wicinski_web_873> thank you all!
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[15:35:01] <Brett Carr_web_231> byeee
[15:35:02] <Willem Toorop_web_158> Cheers
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[15:35:08] <Tom Carpay_web_411> bye!
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[15:35:14] <Petr Špaček_web_694> Bye everyone!
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