Thursday, July 29, 2021< ^ >
Benno Overeinder has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 110
Room Configuration
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[22:58:23] <hta> "this room is still closed". Or am I doing something wrong?
[23:00:14] <hta> found out what I was doing wrong. never mind.
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[23:17:16] meetecho-alexamirante has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 111
[23:17:27] <Joe Abley_web_727> good morning-afternoon-evening-night all
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[23:20:41] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Hullo all...
[23:20:51] <Paul Wouters_web_365> i am just eating dinner now :)
[23:20:58] <Joe Abley_web_727> wait, we are supposed to pay attention?
[23:21:07] <Chris Lemmons_web_352> 30 minute breaks between meetings this time really do help.
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[23:22:22] <Tim Wicinski_web_315> "These two TLDs into a bar...."
[23:22:31] <Joe Abley_web_727> ah, that was me, covertly trying to test my audio
[23:22:34] <Warren Kumari_web_769> ... and then what happened?
[23:22:34] <Joe Abley_web_727> I shall try headphones
[23:22:37] <Paul Wouters_web_365> and order a sibling glue ?
[23:23:04] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Do they get a sibling glue?
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[23:23:14] <Warren Kumari_web_769> (jokes created by committee)
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[23:23:59] <Paul Wouters_web_365> they wait an hour and then they didn't because they didnt need it after all!
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[23:25:14] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Sad how the "Nope, we couldn't hear you" never gets old...
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[23:25:40] <Warren Kumari_web_769> A man walks into a bar.... and says "Ouch!"
[23:26:21] Wes Hardaker_web_308 joins the room
[23:26:38] <Warren Kumari_web_769> So, how about them Mets? (I don't really know what that means, but I've heard it is a good conversation starter...)
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[23:27:01] <Suzanne Woolf_web_770> @meetecho is Joe Abley somehow muted twice?
[23:27:13] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Waving!
[23:27:16] <Paul Wouters_web_365> at least show us your hat warren!
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[23:28:06] <Paul Wouters_web_365> Warren only has Special Use Hats!
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[23:28:12] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> is it an asbestos crash helmet?
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[23:28:16] <Meetecho> Suzanne: not sure we understand the question?
[23:28:22] <Scott Hollenbeck_web_553> @Warren, the Mets thing makes more sense of you're from New York
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[23:28:25] <PE_web_616> So, an IETF AD walks into a bar...
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[23:28:35] <Warren Kumari_web_769> I do have hats, but they are all stored in the hat room...
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[23:28:48] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> PE, is the hat in the right place to make that safe?
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[23:29:25] <Warren Kumari_web_769> My wife only let me buy a onewheel if I also have (and wear) a helmet....
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[23:29:50] <Warren Kumari_web_769> ... and knee pads...
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[23:29:59] <Warren Kumari_web_769> and wrist / hand protectors...
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[23:30:06] <Warren Kumari_web_769> and elbow guards...
[23:30:06] <Harald Alvestrand_web_686> what, no spine shield?
[23:30:09] <Paul Wouters_web_365> she should write more Security Considerations !
[23:30:10] <sftcd> buy more wheels instead?
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[23:30:25] <Warren Kumari_web_769> @sftcd: Oh! Good idea.
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[23:30:36] <Warren Kumari_web_769> though, she said no to a motorbike...
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[23:30:59] <Warren Kumari_web_769> She's (clearly) brighter than me...
[23:31:05] <sftcd> wheels without motors
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[23:31:26] <Paul Wouters_web_365> warren: I approve of her policies!
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[23:32:23] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> clearly the sweet spot lies at > 2 wheels
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[23:33:54] <Roy Arends_web_986> "plausible deniability" :-)
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[23:33:59] <Paul Wouters_web_365> oh i didnt realise it was that much in use
[23:34:18] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> as a resolver vendor, I want to point out that when we did NSEC Aggressive Caching, we had to special case a few things for the 'black lies' implementers; this might argue for some document, of some status, that describes these things that are now commonly happening
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[23:35:13] <Mark Andrews_web_422> except for SMTP
[23:35:27] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> what about SMTP?
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[23:35:47] <Mark Andrews_web_422> It pays attention to NXDOMAIN vs NODATA.
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[23:36:07] <Joe Abley_web_727> In SMTP a NODATA response to a query with QTYPE=MX triggers subsequent queries for QTYPE=A, AAAA, etc
[23:36:14] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> right
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[23:36:23] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> but if all three are actually NXDOMAIN, that doesn't matter
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[23:36:36] <Erik Kline_web_931> but in these cases those A and AAAA request would also get NODATA
[23:36:39] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> where by 'actually' I mean 'underneath'
[23:36:40] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> yes, that
[23:36:41] <Erik Kline_web_931> (AIUI)
[23:36:42] <Joe Abley_web_727> so black lies results in more queries than if an NXDOMAIN arrived in response to the first query
[23:36:52] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> right, unless the type bitmap is correct
[23:36:54] <Joe Abley_web_727> so it doesn't achieve the goal of reduced response sizes, really
[23:36:54] <Paul Wouters_web_365> not having MX is pretty damn old legacy :P
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[23:36:57] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> which it is at NS1 but not at Cloudflare
[23:37:06] <Joe Abley_web_727> ah interesting
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[23:37:45] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> cloudflare's NSEC bitmap claims 'all other types exist'; ns1 only claims the types that actually exist
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[23:38:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> 'second vendor' sounds like Amazon :)
[23:38:28] <PuneetS> black lies results in more queries, and more entries in the DNS response cache.
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[23:38:44] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> definitely
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[23:39:13] <Ray Bellis_web_787> could we use the `NULL` type in the map?
[23:39:24] <Ray Bellis_web_787> to denote an ENT
[23:39:26] <David Lawrence_web_883> Could we just get legit NXDOMAINs :)
[23:39:28] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> given that I just argued for bullet 1, and argued against bullet 2 earlier today, I guess I agree with bullet 4 now :)
[23:39:30] <Mark Andrews_web_422> NULL can exist
[23:39:36] <Shane Kerr_web_126> NULL is an interesting choice. No RDATA is allowed for NULL.
[23:39:37] <Joe Abley_web_727> I kind of like NXDOMAIN too tale ;-)
[23:39:39] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Ray, that's what we do -inside- PowerDNS :)
[23:39:47] <Ray Bellis_web_787> apparently not allowed in zone files
[23:39:56] <Mark Andrews_web_422> Actually NULL is opaque.
[23:40:02] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Shane, that almost solves the question of 'what to respond to questions for TYPE65281'
[23:40:08] <Mark Andrews_web_422> It is allowed in zone files.
[23:40:11] <David Lawrence_web_883> Lending credibility to something called a black lie seems madness
[23:40:28] <Ray Bellis_web_787> MarkA did something change that after 1035, which is pretty explicit that they can't
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[23:40:43] <Wes Hardaker_web_308> well, the first thing we should do is change the name IMHO.
[23:41:05] <Shane Kerr_web_126> "NULL records cause no additional section processing.  NULL RRs are not allowed in master files.  NULLs are used as placeholders in some experimental extensions of the DNS."
[23:41:18] <Shane Kerr_web_126> Seems pretty clear.
[23:41:24] <Mark Andrews_web_422> NULL is defines as an opaque blob in 1035.  Unknown type support allows you to add it to master files
[23:41:29] <Shivan Sahib_web_785> If we write a new draft that subsumes the expired I-D we can change the name once and for all
[23:41:41] <Olaf Kolkman_web_216> +1 to Peter
[23:42:18] <David Lawrence_web_883> Some engineers in your company totally understand what is going on and still object :)
[23:42:25] <Ray Bellis_web_787> if a new RR is requested it would need to be a META RR
[23:42:27] <PE_web_616> problem is most of the world doesn't differentiate informational vs standards RFCs
[23:42:36] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Ray, yes, also oh no
[23:42:48] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> PE, yes - I know I don't and I've been in here for a while
[23:43:00] <David Lawrence_web_883> Especially salient in dnsop, PE, where almost nothing finishes the track
[23:43:02] <PE_web_616> therefore, it's being used but i think it should be done outside DNSOP track so we don't appear to be endorsing it
[23:43:20] <PE_web_616> but should be published as one RFC, since it's in the wild
[23:43:43] <Joe Abley_web_727> no problem!
[23:43:44] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> PowerDNS has something similar called 'NSEC3-NARROW'
[23:43:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> which is naming I still like
[23:43:54] <Ray Bellis_web_787> "big porkies"?
[23:44:13] <Jim Reid_web_593> I think we shouldn't document something just because some vendor is using it Though that ship has probably sailed...
[23:44:19] <Andrew Campling_web_494> If we're okay to document existing practice then presumably we can accept and document that DNS filtering exists too? :-)
[23:44:50] <Joe Abley_web_727> I don't think we need standards action to assign an rrtype any more, do we?
[23:44:59] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Jim, while I like that argument, as I mentioned above, it affects implementers and thus a stable reference is wanted
[23:45:02] <David Lawrence_web_883> Wait, what?  We can't legit sign unknown (generic) RRs?
[23:45:08] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> sure we can
[23:45:09] <Ray Bellis_web_787> @Joe it depends on the RR and whether it requires special processing
[23:45:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> I did not understand that comment
[23:45:16] <Rob Hamilton_web_955> what's an RR?
[23:45:22] <Ray Bellis_web_787> "resource record"
[23:45:31] <David Lawrence_web_883> Also, railroad.
[23:45:31] <Rob Hamilton_web_955> Thx
[23:45:31] <Olaf Kolkman_web_216> You can document it as a 'considered harmful' (if it is, which I doubt)
[23:45:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Olaf, there are downsides to it, which surely could also go into that document
[23:45:49] <Mark Andrews_web_422> NSEC3 has a NSEC3 for the ENT
[23:46:22] <Paul Wouters_web_365> usually you would do that in a bis document
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[23:46:32] <Paul Wouters_web_365> ok fair enough
[23:46:41] <Tim Wicinski_web_315> Agree with Shane
[23:46:41] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Erm time check...
[23:46:47] <Warren Kumari_web_769> Oh :-)
[23:46:47] <Joe Abley_web_727> look at shane, making sense again
[23:47:03] <Jim Reid_web_593> If we document "here's how to tell lies", this will have unpleasant consequences.
[23:47:10] <Warren Kumari_web_769> And, as a reminder for private-use-tlds: . The relevant bit of that being that "I have asked my co-AD to be responsible for the document".
[23:47:20] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Jim, if we can get rid of 'black' we can also get rid of 'lies'
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[23:47:42] <Harald Alvestrand_web_686> rose-colored misleading statements?
[23:48:04] <George Michaelson_web_507> usefully misleading responses
[23:48:04] <Joe Abley_web_727> the name needs work but I agree with shumon that it's sensible to focus on the mechanism and the process before we worry too much about finding a better name.
[23:48:05] <Olaf Kolkman_web_216> For name - something with 'zombie' perhaps?
[23:48:14] <Joe Abley_web_727> sufficient right now to observe that the current name is not ideal I think
[23:48:26] <George Michaelson_web_507> it-which-shall-not-be-named
[23:48:27] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> it's been pointed out to me that besides the obvious racial problems with colour, it also turns out that colour references generally translate very badly between cultures
[23:48:31] <Paul Wouters_web_365> ghosted NXdomain ? :)
[23:48:41] <Joe Abley_web_727> see? see what happens if we discuss names now? :-) :-)
[23:48:43] <Ray Bellis_web_787> can't use zombie - it's discriminatory to the recently departed
[23:48:51] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Joe, fair, Shumon also asked for that to happen later
[23:48:53] <Shane Kerr_web_126> At one point online signing (unoptimized) was called "DNSSEC epsilon", right? What's the next letter in the Greek alphabet?
[23:49:01] <Shane Kerr_web_126> That is, what is "epsilon++"?
[23:49:06] <George Michaelson_web_507> oh right, tie DNS to covid.
[23:49:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> 4470 mentions epsilon, for good reasons; other letters won't make sense
[23:49:24] <Andrew Campling_web_494> @Ray, Paul: Ditto ghostly
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[23:50:03] <Harald Alvestrand_web_686> epsilon++ = zeta
[23:50:31] <Jim Reid_web_593> Peter, I don't care what the ID is called I'm concern it documents a practice that will open the door to more of this thing: here's how to censor/block for instance.
[23:50:50] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> I don't see the link with censoring/blocking
[23:51:10] <John Levine_web_672> @jim you need the signing key to do this stuff
[23:51:11] <Shane Kerr_web_126> The main downside is that it breaks aggressive NSEC caching, IMHO.
[23:51:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> or do you mean Andrew's argument, documenting one existing practice is a step to documenting another existing practice?
[23:51:17] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Shane, +100
[23:51:43] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Shane, we now have workarounds so at least we don't uselessly remember these things - which actually hurts because some, like NS1, do provide useful bitmaps
[23:51:58] <John Levine_web_672> @shane but the point of this hack is that the domain is so dynamic that normal name chains are too expensive
[23:52:03] <Jim Reid_web_593> If the doc says "this is a way to say things that are not true", then any other examples of that behaviour (like blocking) is fair game.
[23:52:05] <John Levine_web_672> probably too short lived too
[23:52:08] <Paul Wouters_web_365> o Create a different WG
[23:52:16] <Andrew Campling_web_494> @Peter: DNS filtering is practised by far more vendors than this
[23:52:34] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Andrew, correct
[23:52:45] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> John, I do not buy that argument at all
[23:52:52] <John Levine_web_672> @jim how are they not true? They have valid signatures from the legit signer
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[23:53:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Jim, I cannot add your 1 and 1 and end up with 2
[23:53:18] <Paul Wouters_web_365> andrew: if you do RPZ filtering with Answers moved to Authority section, including dnssec, so it cannot be mis-used, sure :)
[23:53:21] <Jim Reid_web_593> John, NOHOST != NXDOMAIN!!!
[23:53:33] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> do you mean NODATA != NXDOMAIN?
[23:54:10] <Jim Reid_web_593> Yeah. You're far more awake than I am Peter. Need coffee of sleep..
[23:54:20] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> I took an afternoon nap. Very happy with that choice now. :)
[23:54:36] <George Michaelson_web_507> this was a nightmare from long long before you started the draft, oh <draft-authors>
[23:54:41] <Jim Reid_web_593> Wish I did that...
[23:54:58] <Vittorio Bertola_web_362> Isn't truth by definition whatever the owner of the signing key says it is?
[23:55:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Vittorio, that is the argument, and I'm buying it
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[23:55:24] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> (positively, did not miss a word there)
[23:55:53] <John Levine_web_672> arguing with myself here, it took quite a while to persuade people that NODATA and NXDOMAIN are different, so it's kind of a backward step
[23:55:53] <Paul Wouters_web_365> years ago we said "no more special use domains". lets keep to it. Move any of this discussion out of dnsop. Then you may do whatever you want there
[23:56:27] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> I ignore special use threads - recently I almost missed an underscores in qname minimisation thread because of it
[23:56:38] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> holy echo batman
[23:56:39] <Paul Wouters_web_365> joe joe please please mute mute
[23:56:40] <Korry Luke_web_749> I'm hearing a lot of echo?
[23:56:42] <Nigel Hickson_web_838> Echo.....
[23:56:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Joe is echoing
[23:56:54] <Andrew Campling_web_494> Someone needs to mute to stop the echo?
[23:57:11] <Warren Kumari_web_769> I bleeive that (Spuecual use problem statement" document already mentions a bunch of the issues...
[23:57:45] <Paul Wouters_web_365> the one decision that matters: dnsop will not spend WG time on this :0-
[23:58:10] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> Paul, I'd love that, yes
[23:58:13] <Vittorio Bertola_web_362> So is this also a case of documenting a practice that DNSOP does not endorse?
[23:58:13] <Olaf Kolkman_web_216> Interesting parallel to the discussion we just had.
[23:58:21] <Peter van Dijk_web_734> names are protocol overhead
[23:58:27] <Geoff Huston_web_807> @PaulW: yes, this is no a thing that DNSOP can spend any more time on productively
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