Monday, July 26, 2021< ^ >
Benno Overeinder has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 110
Room Configuration
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[14:07:18] <Suzanne Woolf_web_923> Dear Chairs,
for IETF 111 we made available a new feature that has been requested quite a few times by some of you: you can now make presentations by sharing pdf slide decks, rather than sharing your screen.
This feature requires wg chairs to select which deck they want to make available to other participants to present. Decks can be retrieved from the datatracker meeting materials of the wg, or uploaded directly via Meetecho.
This short video describes the functionality in more details:
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[22:57:14] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> I just jumped in and you said 'promptly' so I feared I was already too late :D
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[22:57:44] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Hullo a..
[22:57:48] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> hello!
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[22:57:55] <Warren Kumari_web_309> We still have a few minutes for snark!
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[22:58:06] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Oh I was about to type something nice
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[22:58:30] <Warren Kumari_web_309> What?! Nice?! In DNSOP??!
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[22:58:39] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> If i make the window super big I can see Tim's slide numbering
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[22:58:50] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> haha
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[22:59:06] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Oh. Huh, yes, if I scroll I too can see it...
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[22:59:28] <Warren Kumari_web_309> How is everyone this fine Monday morning/afternoon/evening?
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[22:59:32] <Paul Wouters_web_801> top left corner within the presentation screen says 1 - meaning slide 1 :)
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[22:59:34] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Oh...
[22:59:37] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> anyway, Warren, thank you for AD work on 9077, is what I was going to say
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[22:59:55] <Roy Arends_web_329> topic is dated ;-)
[22:59:55] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> and, I'm good, although I'm not enjoying my time zone right now :D
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[23:00:53] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> thanks Tim!
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[23:01:03] <Warren Kumari_web_309> @Peter: nah, thanks to y'all for all your work on it. I just shuffled the papers back and forth...
[23:01:18] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> well then we're both awesome
[23:01:21] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> this works for me :)
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[23:01:51] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Hey, this "being nice" thing is kinda fun....
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[23:01:58] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> it is!
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[23:03:37] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> I notice the Thu agenda is empty
[23:03:38] <Benno Overeinder_web_382> Hi.  I am your jabber scribe, as far as it goes.  :-)
[23:03:45] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> but apparently plenty is planned
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[23:03:53] <Brian Haberman_web_684> @Warren I thought you went through "being nice" training...
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[23:04:12] <Benno Overeinder_web_382> Yes, we reserved Thursday for WG work prioritisation.
[23:04:28] <Benno Overeinder_web_382> & discussion
[23:04:28] <Warren Kumari_web_309> @Brian: I slept through it....
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[23:04:52] <Brian Haberman_web_684> @Warren that's one way to be nice
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[23:06:32] <George Michaelson_web_332> ...
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[23:06:56] <George Michaelson_web_332> mee no hearums.
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[23:07:10] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> George, I can hear Suze, Benno and Wes fine
[23:07:10] <George Michaelson_web_332> do anyone else out there hear ... "things" from the dark past of DNS?
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[23:07:53] <George Michaelson_web_332> (had bad OSX audio settings. fixed)
[23:08:01] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> (good!)
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[23:08:40] <Brian Haberman_web_684> @George what kind of "things"?
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[23:10:41] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Good lords, but Viktor does lots of grunge work to make the DNS work better...
[23:11:01] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> about 1 million of the 100 iterations domain should go down to zero within a few months
[23:11:07] <Shane Kerr_web_653> 5 9's!
[23:11:09] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> *domains
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[23:11:29] <Roy Arends_web_329> would an absolute value of zones that will fail be an interesting number? (instead of fraction)
[23:11:35] <Jim Reid_web_270> Just kill NSEC3 and the iterations go away for good.
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[23:12:44] <Warren Kumari_web_309> @Jim: It would certainly make things simpler...
[23:13:27] <Roy Arends_web_329> 42 zones
[23:13:36] <Roy Arends_web_329> above 500
[23:13:50] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> @jim +100
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[23:16:15] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> (I like SERVFAIL)
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[23:18:14] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> @roy: you can get the counts by multiplying the fraction by the total number of course!
[23:19:25] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> but 6699 over 100 and 39 over 500
[23:19:29] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> (might be off by 1 or 2)
[23:19:40] <Roy Arends_web_329> that is how I got to 42 :-)
[23:20:13] <Roy Arends_web_329> off by 3
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[23:20:38] <Vittorio Bertola_web_558> So it turns out that 42 is not the answer!
[23:20:59] <Roy Arends_web_329> Yep, 42 will servfail :-)
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[23:22:25] <Shane Kerr_web_653> How can sibling glue ever be required? Zones not hosted on the same server would be broken then, right?
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[23:22:55] <John Levine_web_466> looks good but I would like it to say more clearly you need to return ALL the glue
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[23:23:15] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> I don't even see how a resolver would know the sibling glue is legit.
[23:23:16] <Warren Kumari_web_309> ... and it needs careful checking to make sure if is in under the same parent, to aboid poisining....
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[23:23:44] <Paul Wouters_web_801> peter: it just looks for any address records in its zone that matches the NS entries
[23:23:59] <Jared Mauch_web_412> @peter yeah i'm worried about the out-of-bailwick vs sibling scenarios as well...
[23:24:02] <Ray Bellis_web_502> isn't this an opportunity to specifically outlaw circular glue?
[23:24:28] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Ray, how would implementations do that?
[23:24:29] <Roy Arends_web_329> Orphan glue is actually "adopted glue"
[23:24:30] <Shane Kerr_web_653> @Ray: outlaw how?
[23:24:31] <Jared Mauch_web_412> ray is that a rfc8962 cite? :-)
[23:24:58] <Jared Mauch_web_412> i suspect Ray is suggesting "WONTFIX"
[23:25:07] <Yoshitaka Aharen_web_197> TEST-NET-1 is, not
[23:25:10] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> @peter: count max hops is one way, or keeping a cache of the circle
[23:25:14] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_296> The example IP addresses should be under not
[23:25:21] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Wes, but who would do this? Or do you mean in resolvers?
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[23:25:41] <Paul Wouters_web_801> viktor: ohh that is my bad. in libreswan testing we use both :)  I'll do a PR :)
[23:26:30] <Yoshitaka Aharen_web_197> echo
[23:26:39] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Mark Andrews is echoing
[23:26:41] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> gone now
[23:26:45] <Warren Kumari_web_309> @Peter: Yes. Counting is one option, as as a "lookback" (add each NS to a list, confirm that it isn't already seen). They have different implmentation challenges with distributed resolvers..
[23:26:46] <Nigel Hickson_web_276> There is "generic" and specific, value is for IETF to give expert classification.
[23:26:50] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> in resolvers
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[23:26:59] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Warren, right, should be mostly fine since Tsuname
[23:27:03] <Warren Kumari_web_309> see TSUName for a fun example :-P
[23:27:15] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> that's not fully published yet
[23:27:18] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Yah, that.
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[23:28:51] <Wes Hardaker_web_467>
[23:28:52] <Brett Carr_web_121> on the back of tsuname Im surprised to see the cyclic dependency part being removed.
[23:28:52] <Ray Bellis_web_502> ok, if not "outlaw", at least have a documented rationale for not doing it.
[23:29:05] <Wes Hardaker_web_467> that's the tsuname presentation by giovani
[23:29:45] <Warren Kumari_web_309> Is sibling glue really worth the optimization?
[23:29:47] <Shane Kerr_web_653> Doesn't help me!
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[23:30:10] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> .com/.net don't serve sibling glue today, and I see no benefit in them starting to do so
[23:30:15] <Shane Kerr_web_653> If the zones are held on different servers, then if sibling glue is mandatory then the zone will be broken.
[23:30:21] <Shane Kerr_web_653> Right?
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[23:32:52] <Paul Wouters_web_801> i stopped worrying about "more data" after seeing: dig txt
[23:33:01] <Duane Wessels_web_714> @Peter .com/.net does return sibling glue actually.  maybe you're thinking cross-zone glue?
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[23:33:52] <Viktor Dukhovni_web_296> Re: txt, Wow!
[23:34:16] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Duane, yes, I've been corrected
[23:34:19] <Pallavi Aras_web_662> If the orphaned glue records are considered authoritative data, then for a DNSSEC signed zone, does the draft expect glue to be signed?
[23:34:46] <Paul Wouters_web_801> viktor: oh they reduced it. it was 66 entries a few weeks ago
[23:34:49] <Shane Kerr_web_653> Ah, I was thinking cross-zone glue too.
[23:35:12] <Warren Kumari_web_309> ... and the CNN auth server operators look through thier logs and blink in surprise that so many people jsut looked it up :-P
[23:35:17] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> ok, so sibling glue is what we see in dig ns
[23:35:26] <Paul Wouters_web_801> pallavi: this draft does not change any of that. but yes it is signed because it is authoritative
[23:35:32] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> and cross-zone glue is what we do not see in dig ns
[23:35:48] <Benno Overeinder_web_382> We are good in time, but queue is closed after Viktor.
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[23:36:08] <Benno Overeinder_web_382> Okay, Viktor dequeued.
[23:36:10] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> and the sibling glue might be a cycle-breaker
[23:36:30] <Kazunori Fujiwara_web_944> orphan glue is an authoritative data. (inserted by registry's bug)
[23:37:46] <zulipbot> (Ralf Weber) No if the sibling glue came from the same parent it should handed out for the proper domain. I don’t think siblings are cycle breakers unless the authorities are really broken
[23:38:34] <John Levine_web_466> @ralf agreed
[23:38:38] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> if, inside .test, foo.test is on and bar.test is on, there is a broken cycle that sibling glue can solve, right?
[23:38:47] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> (I'm not arguing this setup is a good idea)
[23:39:18] <John Levine_web_466> that's a loop, not like the sibling example in the I-D
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[23:39:30] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> I agree
[23:39:37] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> but it's a loop that sibling glue can 'make work'
[23:39:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> (if resolvers accept the sibling data)
[23:39:50] <John Levine_web_466> is that really a feature?
[23:40:04] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> no :)
[23:40:10] <John Levine_web_466> seems like giving the camel another hangmail
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[23:40:19] <John Levine_web_466> hannail
[23:40:23] <John Levine_web_466> hangnail
[23:40:26] <John Levine_web_466> I hate my keyboard
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[23:40:55] <zulipbot> (Ralf Weber) I agree Peter that your case is valid. I personally think it would be better in that case that both domain fail ;-)
[23:40:56] <Jared Mauch_web_412> I think there's a hidden april 1st RFC here for all the DNS terms like step-sibling-glue etc
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[23:41:32] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Ralf, yes, they do not deserve to resolve :)
[23:41:49] <Jim Reid_web_270> @ Jared, sounds like an episode of the Jerry Spinger show...
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[23:42:02] <John Levine_web_466> with a convoluted enough chain of loop glue and a server trying to make it all work, we can recreate HOSTS.TXT
[23:42:29] <Jared Mauch_web_412> com vs net glue is great aunt? in vs ?
[23:42:41] <Benjamin Schwartz_web_567> "I'm my own grandpa"
[23:43:08] <John Levine_web_466> @jared a wistful reminder of a much friendlier Internet
[23:43:37] <Jared Mauch_web_412> but I agree with John, I like the definition but it creates more questions than answers
[23:43:37] <Warren Kumari_web_309> If we recreate HOSTS.TXT, can we at least allows 0x20 encoding, so I can confirm it isn't spoofed by being able to ask for HoSTs.tXT ?!
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[23:46:55] <Suzanne Woolf_web_712>
[23:47:18] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> somebody told me today that late ANRW registration may involve exchanging some emails to actually get in, as the registration deadline has already passed
[23:47:32] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> I don't know if that applies if you apply now for two days from now
[23:47:34] <Jay Daley_web_157> ANRW registration is still open - strongly recommended that you do not register at the last moment as it takes time for your registration to be activated
[23:47:41] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> right
[23:48:03] <Shane Kerr_web_653> But the presentations are already available to view now? Along with the papers?
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[23:48:09] <Jim Reid_web_270> Jay, how about automagically registering IETF attendees for ANRW?
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[23:48:47] <Andrew Campling_web_811> Agree with Paul if <0.5% of top 100k sites are vulnerable
[23:49:11] <Jay Daley_web_157> Jim, ANRW registration has data collection requirements specifically required by its joint funding agreement.
[23:49:18] <Nigel Hickson_web_276> +1 Andrew
[23:49:19] <Warren Kumari_web_309> People may want to read before ANRW...
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[23:53:32] <Tommy Jensen_web_501> The view is scrollable so the whole slide is visible, just not by default
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[23:53:32] <Jim Reid_web_270> OK Jay. So how about having a "register for ANRW?" button when people are registering for the IETF meeting?
[23:53:32] <Olaf Kolkman_web_141> /We can all scroll to the bottom of this slide ;-)
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[23:53:32] <Brian Haberman_web_684> Standard Required does not mean RFC Required.
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[23:53:33] <Jim Reid_web_270> OK Jay. It would be nice to fill in just one form to register for both IETF and ANRW.
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[23:54:31] <Peter van Dijk_web_760> Brian, I need to look up what the terms mean every 3 months; maybe we can make the terms better some day ;)
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[23:55:30] <Warren Kumari_web_244> Yes please!
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[23:55:56] <Shane Kerr_web_653> There's a draft for a new GOST right?
[23:56:00] <Shane Kerr_web_653> Right. :-)
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[23:57:36] <Shumon Huque_web_304> Paul Wouters - you need to repeat your mention now of :)
[23:57:55] <Jay Daley_web_157> Jim, the historical background is that the two were developed differently for different clients.  The need for better integration was recognised about 5 hours ago and will be discussed after this meeting with a view to having it in place for the next ANRW.
[23:57:58] <Paul Wouters_web_801> hehe :)
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