IETF
dnsop
dnsop@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 11, 2021< ^ >
MarcoSIDN@Home has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 109
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[14:23:21] <George Michaelson_web_423> Can somebody whistle muzak?
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[14:23:38] <George Michaelson_web_423> Ahhhhh IETF muzak
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[14:23:49] <George Michaelson_web_423> Its "rap" but .. less rythmic
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[14:29:08] Benno Overeinder has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 110
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[14:29:20] <Warren Kumari_web_974> I thought that the IETF Muzak was the sound of a thousand people humming, but none actually knowing what the hum is about...?
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[14:29:42] <zulipbot> (Puneet Sood) Test
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[14:30:05] <Warren Kumari_web_974> @Puneet: Worked.
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[14:31:02] <Jim Reid_web_605> Sun? What's that?
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[14:31:28] <Wes Hardaker_web_754> I can play crappy guitar at the start of the second one!  ha ha
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[14:34:32] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> whatever text is below 'dnsop-nsec-ttl' is cropped off the screen here
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[14:35:02] <Jonathan Reed_web_317> I'm also seeing cropping, yeah
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[14:35:59] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> better!
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[14:37:16] <Shumon Huque_web_645> ns-revalidation has a few outstanding comments to be addressed in the queue. This was also decelerated a bit by the departure of Ralph Dolmans. But we'll have an updated version soon.
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[14:38:08] <Paul Hoffman_web_181> Showing up means different things these days...
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[14:40:41] <Warren Kumari_web_974> Link to IAB Liaison: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1720/
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[14:41:31] <Tim Wicinski_web_353> Peter, the text was left was "tim needs to do his job"
[14:41:37] <Suzanne Woolf_web_578> @meetecho will the room stay open between the DNSOP sessions? We're back to back this session and the next
[14:41:43] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> Tim, I noticed :D thanks
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[14:42:13] <Meetecho> Suzanne: no, it's a different room so you'll have to leave this one and join the other, I'm afraid
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[14:42:58] <Suzanne Woolf_web_578> @meetecho OK, we'll remind people at the end of this session, thanks!
[14:43:30] <Tim Wicinski_web_353> Thanks shumon,  you are suffering the same "Where's Ralph" problem
[14:44:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> Waldo Dolmans
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[14:44:38] <Vladimír Čunát_web_654> I'd assume he won't be much around dnsop anymore, but it's mostly guessing.
[14:45:25] <Benno Overeinder> I will chase Waldo Dolmans down.  Actually, I am still in contact with Ralph, but he is very busy starting a job in another country, etc.
[14:45:29] <Shumon Huque_web_645> Well, he still wants to be involved in the draft, but it's harder now since he moved to the Far East and is day job isn't DNS anymore!
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[14:52:42] <Vicky Risk_web_950> I was wondering if the deRuijters were for the pizza ... or what?
[14:52:53] <Tom Hill_web_256> Aww.. There's no site at https://xot.rocks :)
[14:52:58] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> Vicky, pineapple was offered separately for those ;)
[14:54:45] <Ben Schwartz> Wrong WG.  ITYM dns://xot.rocks
[14:56:46] <Suzanne Woolf_web_578> dns:://anything sounds like a very dubious idea :-)
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[15:01:57] <George Michaelson_web_423> dns:://anything looks like DECnet routing
[15:02:25] <Peter Thomassen_web_897> can't see you, Pieter! :)
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[15:03:27] <Ray Bellis_web_667> I don't like this CSYNC stuff - it implies that the catz either becomes a synthetic zone, or at least depends on some other process to read the current members' SOA and dynamically update the CSYNC records.
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[15:13:24] <Vicky Risk_web_950> Having configuration groups instead of multiple catalogs, doesn't that make the catalog larger? which exacerbates the issues associated with large catalog updates.
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[15:16:05] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> Operators can still split (like Peter is saying right now); but the groups allow some operators to not have to split :)
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[15:17:53] <Petr Špaček_web_861> A new class for catalog zones? :troll:
[15:18:31] <Libor Peltan_web_314> @vicky yes, but i consider the benefits worth it
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[15:18:36] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> can't do it, PowerDNS is an Internet Class Name Server!
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[15:19:04] <Peter Thomassen_web_897> sorry, forgot to introduce myself :-) we run deSEC, a free managed DNSSEC provider, and we're very interested in all efforts helping adopt DNSSEC. --> https://desec.io/
[15:19:07] <George Michaelson_web_423> Proof by exclusion: it cannot be paul because it does not have a (grey) beard.
[15:19:10] <George Michaelson_web_423> IMPOSTOR
[15:19:29] <Vladimír Čunát_web_654> There's a vest, though.
[15:19:32] <George Michaelson_web_423> The term is "hello"
[15:19:39] <George Michaelson_web_423> the vest is alive!
[15:19:39] <Libor Peltan_web_314> To summarize it, i consider the lack of discussion about the whole "properties" idea as an approval to continue this way. (That catalog zone is no longer just a list of PTRs.)
[15:19:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> The vest and the soothing baritone are enough identity for me
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[15:19:57] <Murray Kucherawy_web_849> I prefer "whazzaaaap"
[15:20:03] <Willem Toorop_web_108> @libor yes, but all not mandatory
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[15:20:09] <Libor Peltan_web_314> yes
[15:20:12] <Ray Bellis_web_667> @Libor that approval needs to be based on list consensus, not the "virtual room"
[15:20:16] <Murray Kucherawy_web_849> @Peter van Dijk: Better than any crypto I can think of.
[15:20:41] <Libor Peltan_web_314> Sure, I meant the approval to continue the work in this direction.
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[15:24:33] <George Michaelson_web_423> Forgive a naieve question/point, but is making a crypto alg a MAY not a recipe for "goes unvalidatable" because no support emerges for MAY not MUST?
[15:24:49] <George Michaelson_web_423> it feels like a loss of SEP comes from MAY basically
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[15:25:38] <George Michaelson_web_423> oh, he covered it
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[15:26:48] <Vladimír Čunát_web_654> Sounds better than not being able to allocate an algorithm number.
[15:26:57] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> +1 Vladimir
[15:27:19] <Jim Reid_web_605> Yes. Or people plucking alg numbers out of the air
[15:27:27] <Daniel Migault_web_420> Would be good to have the feed backs from implementers.
[15:27:39] <Peter van Dijk_web_471> Jim, which I've had to do a few times for small scale experiments already, and did not like.
[15:27:48] <Daniel Migault_web_420> on how a non tsandard algorithm will be considered.
[15:28:11] <Tom Hill_web_256> Is that Queen Elizabeth speaking?! It's uncanny.
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[15:30:35] <Jim Reid_web_605> You never see her and me in the same room at the same time...
[15:30:45] <Tom Hill_web_256> !
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[15:31:20] <Petr Špaček_web_861> LOL
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[15:32:05] <Vladimír Čunát_web_654> :-)
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[15:33:59] <mcr> hi. chairs?
[15:34:26] <mcr> should I be prepared to share my slides, or do you prefer to?
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[15:40:31] <Jerry Lundström> mcr: think you can choose
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[15:51:11] <Paul Wouters_web_969> what did i miss in the previous session? :)
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[15:52:38] <George Michaelson_web_680> Stuff. lots of stuff. we decided to go back to UDP only, 511 byte max payload and MD5
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[15:53:12] <Jerry Lundström> CRC you mean
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[15:54:08] <mcr> Jerry, I will project then, since I have some animated slides.
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[15:54:17] <Paul Wouters_web_969> excellent, the DNS camel is now a dromedary
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[15:56:18] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> Not even that: a mule
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[15:58:56] <Libor Peltan_web_403> Llama
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[16:00:12] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> sometimes I think it's a platypus....
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[16:01:38] <mcr> dns lays eggs...
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[16:02:00] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> ...and has hair
[16:02:05] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> PaulW, we're moving dnskey algorithm and flag assignment to GitHub PRs with Emoji voting. Delegation only will surely benefit from this :D
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[16:02:36] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> (and dotpin ;) )
[16:02:37] <George Michaelson_web_680> Can't hear Kazunori
[16:02:42] <Paul Wouters_web_969> i dont hear anything ?
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[16:03:05] <Jeff Osborn_web_514> Me neither.
[16:03:08] <Jim Reid_web_184> Benno, you need to sing a son until we start
[16:03:13] <Paul Wouters_web_969> peter. I see, i will have to get noh :shit:ts.ca   :)
[16:03:17] <Vicky Risk_web_995> there is nothing to hear!!
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[16:03:17] <Libor Peltan_web_403> I hear DNS grow
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[16:03:24] <Paul Wouters_web_969> oh booh. they undid my nice emoji
[16:03:28] <Meetecho> Kazunori: can you click the mic icon? I onl see you in queue
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[16:07:53] <George Michaelson_web_680> hah! Star Trek death match, to pick the best DNS payload size. I get to watch
[16:08:08] <Vicky Risk_web_995> so this is a manual pmtu
[16:08:23] <George Michaelson_web_680> it's UDP. what do you want to do PMTU?
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[16:08:43] <George Michaelson_web_680> "one size fits all" PMTU. (hint: its the small one)
[16:08:45] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> As an implementer I have no idea what to do with that slide.
[16:08:55] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> (the one suggesting a responder probes a bunch of things)
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[16:09:47] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> or, in fact, even as a requester I wouldn't know what to do.
[16:09:57] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Have a config thing that specifies what to probe, and a default set of things in the config, and do TCP PMTUD to those?
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[16:10:29] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> That requires 'probing' to be defined as something useful.
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[16:11:02] <Brian Dickson_web_727> TCP PMTUD - use that to calculate a value, and transmogrify to UDP thing
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[16:11:20] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> I'm not a web server, I don't have data to probe with. Also I don't have time for probing :)
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[16:11:36] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Probing towards *well*-connected places like root doesn't seem like a reliable bound to me.
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[16:11:53] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Indeed, that only provides an absolute upper bound.
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[16:12:10] <Jonathan Reed_web_670> +1 to Puneet's suggestion
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[16:12:31] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Thus the suggestion about the operator supplied set rather than hard-coded set.
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[16:12:33] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> was distracted, what was his suggestion?
[16:12:46] <Ralf Weber_web_862> 1400
[16:12:58] <Ralf Weber_web_862> or a range from 1232 to 1400
[16:13:09] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> right
[16:13:23] <Jerry Lundström> he suggested a range, not a fixed number
[16:13:27] <Jonathan Reed_web_670> Right, recommending a range
[16:13:37] <Jerry Lundström> +1 range
[16:13:46] <Petr Špaček_web_912> I'm not sure it is good idea to bake a value in an RFC. The value might change in future by simply changing defaults in software, will we update RFC? In my eyes it's waste of effort.
[16:14:00] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Even the discussion towards 1232 default of DNS Frag Day was quite long and hard.
[16:14:31] <George Michaelson_web_680> isn't the probed client in the kernel MTU cache radix trie?
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[16:14:45] <George Michaelson_web_680> I guess not, if you never did TCP.
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[16:14:50] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> only for clients that you have seen recently
[16:14:52] <Petr Špaček_web_912> Exactly.
[16:14:53] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> and that
[16:15:01] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> the data simply is not there most of the time
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[16:15:04] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> And assuming stuff like ICMP works.
[16:15:05] <Brian Dickson_web_727> I strongly suggest everyone read Geoff's article, and take it into consideration before discussing or taking a strong position.
[16:15:10] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> and even TCP only has it if you hit the limits first
[16:15:17] <Petr Špaček_web_912> I realize this is radical, but I would rather drop the document than to put it out only because we have spent time on it.
[16:15:22] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> I have read Geoff's article.
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[16:16:17] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Petr, I like the DONTFRAG bit, but that's about it.
[16:16:30] <Jim Reid_web_474> if most queries are going to use DoH, will UDP payloads matter in the longer term?
[16:16:40] <Brian Dickson_web_727> The two main take-aways are, don't use the SAME value for IP4 and IP6, and pick the largest value that is known to not cause problems. Picking too small a value leads to poor outcomes.
[16:16:55] <Ralf Weber_web_862> Yeah from recursive to authoritative for. a long time coming
[16:17:11] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Jim, a joke?
[16:17:22] <Jerry Lundström> :D
[16:17:30] <Petr Špaček_web_912> DONTFRAG sounds like a good idea, but I think there already are papers on that topic (not necessairly RFCs) so having RFC just to point to a paper sounds like not very productive.
[16:17:33] <Jim Reid_web_474> @Peter. maybe. :-)
[16:17:35] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> Green sheet!
[16:18:19] <Brian Dickson_web_727> The frag issue on recursive to auth is actually a big deal, and is where the greatest level of thought should be applied. I.e. recursive to auth is where the Fragmentation is Poisonous is applicable. Preventing fragmentation on that path is really really a big deal.
[16:18:43] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Yes - so I do think publishing DONTFRAG guidance would be tremendously useful.
[16:19:53] <zulipbot> (Puneet Sood) @_**JabberBot|28** [said](https://zulip-trial1.ietf.org/#narrow/stream/55-jabber.3Adnsop/topic/dnsop/near/27300):
```quote
Paul Hoffman_web_612: Green sheet!
```
what is green sheet?
[16:19:54] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> @Petr, agreed and this is why the chairs are looking for where consensus might actually lie-- if the WG can't agree enough of the content of the draft is worth publishing, we'll drop it.
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[16:20:07] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Puneet, the green sheet is Wes' background
[16:20:37] <Warren Kumari_web_881> Subtly different to a blue sheet? :-P
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[16:21:02] <Warren Kumari_web_881> Everybody, go write your name on Wes' bedsheet....
[16:21:07] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Correct. However, that also requires sane values on both BUFSIZE and configured auth server be used, since there is no UDP ability to retransmit.
I think the draft should put explicit guidance on IPv4 and IPv6 to not use defaults over 1472 and 1452 respectively, but also make that subject to revision for the potential of recursive-to-auth eventually being frequently/commonly being over paths with PMTU >> 1500 (e.g. 9000)
[16:21:07] <Paul Wouters_web_969> opt-out should die by now. We have the RAM :P
[16:21:10] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> I've always heard that called a "green screen"
[16:22:00] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Suzanne, same
[16:22:03] <Paul Wouters_web_969> Is there really a iteration problem to solve ?
[16:22:36] <Jim Reid_web_474> Too many iterations is a DoS vector for validators
[16:22:49] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Jim, and auths
[16:22:59] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> But at least they made their own bed.
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[16:23:15] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> (mostly)
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[16:24:08] <Shumon Huque_web_589> Do validators already implement a cap on the number of hash iterations? I suspect many do, but haven't checked.
[16:24:09] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Good guidance for implementers and operators, who may not be as aware of the impact they are causing themselves.
[16:24:18] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Shumon, yes
[16:24:28] <Paul Wouters_web_969> roy has a good point
[16:24:49] <Shumon Huque_web_589> Peter - what do you do? Is it key size based or absolute?
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[16:25:25] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> PowerDNS Recursor has a (configurable, default) cap at 2500, keysize ignored
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[16:25:35] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> above that we go insecure, as 5155 currently demands
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[16:26:46] <Vicky Risk_web_995> paul vixie
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[16:27:15] <Willem Toorop_web_238> Unbound, the same (also goes insecure if iterations > cap), but takes along the key sizes as shown in the presentation. So max 150 iterations for key size 1024 etc.
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[16:28:55] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Yes, ainbow table for a given zone.  (say, decode new names fast)
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[16:29:31] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Trying to word this question carefully: is there any strong support by anyone regarding use of NSEC3? Would there be any support for making recommendations of NSEC over NSEC3, particularly for the root issues for this draft?
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[16:29:50] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> +1 to deprecating NSEC3 altogether ;)
[16:29:54] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> (it would really help if NSEC had opt-out)
[16:30:04] <Jim Reid_web_474> +1 to what Peter said.
[16:30:15] <Paul Wouters_web_969> +1
[16:30:16] <Paul Wouters_web_969> :)
[16:30:20] <Ralf Weber_web_862> Yeah +1 for me also, but not happening any time soon, so reducing iterations is what we have
[16:30:23] <Ray Bellis_web_874> there are still TLDs that want NSEC3 to prevent enumeration
[16:30:30] <Christian Elmerot_web_613> +1
[16:30:30] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Ralf, yep, that's the pragmatic response.
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[16:30:37] <Paul Wouters_web_969> s/prevent/slow down/
[16:30:39] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> $dayjob_hat: we talked about doing NSEC3->NSEC for our zones last year
[16:30:41] <Brian Dickson_web_727> If someone (a large DNS hosting company) were to say, go 100% DNSSEC, that might even make opt-out a non-issue. Just saying.
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[16:31:06] <Petr Špaček_web_912> You are saying that for far too long already :troll:
[16:31:07] <Paul Wouters_web_969> brian: i look forward to godaddy and google doing that :)
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[16:31:58] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Hope to have something to say in another few weeks... yes, I am aware I have been saying that, but $dayjob has REDACTED ISSUES. :-)
[16:32:41] <Brian Dickson_web_727> (But we have switched our hosted DNSSEC to NSEC and alg 13 across the board)
[16:33:10] <Paul Wouters_web_969> brian: yay :)
[16:33:14] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Congrats on algo 13!
[16:33:42] <Peter Koch_web_890> I understand that this is a policy issue at least as much as it is a standards/protocol issue;  taking decision about other entities' risk assessment might turn out to be a slippery slope
[16:34:28] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> So would *not* taking risk into account.
[16:34:32] <Wes Hardaker_web_461> There is always a tussle between the produces of the data and the security they require vs the consumers and the resources they're willing to commit to use the data
[16:34:41] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Agree. However, saying "NOT RECOMMENDED" is not the same as "DEPRECATED".
[16:36:25] <Brian Dickson_web_727> IMHO, having good recommendations for operators with small zones where enumeration is a non-issue, would avoid unnecessary self-inflicted pain. Making non-recommendations (saying does not apply to TLDs) might help carve out the scope of recommendatinos.
[16:36:52] <Paul Wouters_web_969> I'll have to read it. moving dns hoster and doing CDS/CDNSKEY is tricky
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[16:37:12] <Paul Wouters_web_969> and most people move (registrar+dnshoster) at once
[16:37:12] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> There's some excellent thinking behind Ulrich&co's paper.
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[16:37:34] <Ben Schwartz> Does this assume the same algorithms on both sides?
[16:37:52] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> I don't think so but don't hold it against me
[16:38:09] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Haven't committed to this yet at $dayjob but the idea is to have the registrar do the polling and EPP, hope to actually pursue implementing.
[16:38:10] <Shumon Huque_web_589> Ben - it does not today, but we have another proposal in the pipeline for how to deal with that. Stay tuned.
[16:38:17] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> ah cool
[16:38:19] <Jim Reid_web_474> Brian, making protocol special cases for TLDs (or other kinds of zones) seems wrong. Though I suppose that ship sailed when NSEC3 was done for a handful of TLDs.
[16:38:59] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Yeah, mostly make it "zone size" rather than topological or operational special-casing.
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[16:39:14] <Peter Thomassen_web_880> Same algorithms are currently implicitly required by RFC 6840, but that could be updated through the new document
[16:39:15] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Or rather, risk of enumeration.
[16:39:41] <Ben Schwartz> "Use NSEC if you don't need NSEC3" seems uncontroversial but not very useful
[16:40:29] <Paul Wouters_web_969> If you want to avoid teenagers getting your zone data, use nsec3
[16:40:32] <Brian Dickson_web_727> It's better than nothing, and hopefully actionable to reduce blind use of NSEC3.
[16:40:46] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Ben, actually it would be good for many operators to give that a good thinkover.
[16:41:02] <Ben Schwartz> OK
[16:41:18] <Paul Wouters_web_969> if you want to prevent real adversaries from getting your zone, go back to the drawing board
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[16:41:37] <Paul Wouters_web_969> they already have it
[16:42:07] <Brian Dickson_web_727> DNS data is public, so you can't prevent anyone obtaining it. The enumeration thing is probably less useful now that there are public resolvers with large-ish caches
[16:42:11] <Christian Elmerot_web_613> We are talking about data openly queryable regardless
[16:42:27] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> https://crt.sh/ also has all your interesting names.
[16:42:59] <Paul Wouters_web_969> peter: ahh so hidden DNS names and no TLS will keep your serer hidden and secure :)
[16:43:08] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> PaulW, well, one of those!
[16:43:50] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Best have the server air-gapped.
[16:44:00] <Paul Wouters_web_969> :)
[16:44:02] <Ben Schwartz> Check out this one neat trick to avoid appearing in CT logs [DANE].
[16:44:30] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> :-D
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[16:44:52] <Shumon Huque_web_589> Until DT logs appear :)
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[16:54:05] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Fixed until the cert rotates.
[16:54:15] <Petr Špaček_web_912> +1
[16:54:20] <Jonathan Reed_web_820> I just want to note that there's another potential implementor besides browsers, which is client software like AdGuard or Avast.  I have no data about plans any of them may have, but they're things-that-aren't-browsers-but-also-aren't-OS-stubs.
[16:55:30] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> +1 for bringing some significant client(s) into this.
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[16:57:35] <Petr Špaček_web_912> When you do that, mention also EDE...
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[16:58:11] <Petr Špaček_web_912> chairs: Maybe capport WG would have the right people?
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[16:58:34] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> The draft mentions EDE, but it won't hurt to stress it separately.
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[16:59:56] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> +1 to capport as a good target. They had to deal with lots of these issues.
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[17:00:06] <Paul Wouters_web_969> nom nom side channel :)
[17:00:46] <Paul Wouters_web_969> websockets over DNS :)
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[17:02:43] <Jim Reid_web_474> @Petr, capport has closed. The WG members should still be around.
[17:03:22] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> > The mailing list will remain open for that and other related discussion.
[17:03:32] <Petr Špaček_web_912> @Jim, I'm aware, hopefully at least capport charts are still alive.
[17:03:42] <Petr Špaček_web_912> * chairs
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[17:06:19] <Brian Dickson_web_727> This error reporting is between recursives and auths, and spoofing requires being an active MITM, or brute-forcing the traffic info (Query ID and other pieces of entropy)
[17:06:32] <Brian Dickson_web_727> I.e. answer has to match a valid query
[17:06:36] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Isn't it better to send those malicious reports by e-mail?
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[17:07:17] <Warren Kumari_web_881> ... only if over TCP...
[17:07:43] <Petr Špaček_web_912> E-mail over UDP :thinking: :troll:
[17:07:46] <Paul Wouters_web_969> you have a configuration problem. Now clients are all reporting back to you with an erorr.Now you have two problems
[17:08:15] <Petr Špaček_web_912> This is DMARC for DNS with all pros and cons.
[17:08:16] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Isn't this an option that needs the auth to enable first?
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[17:08:20] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Brian, nothing in the draft supports what you just said though.
[17:08:25] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> Brian, yes, it's opt-in from the auth.
[17:08:30] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Well, the reporting could be restricted to TCP, if "we" determine it's worth it.
[17:08:34] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Okay, I guess I need to contribute text :-)
[17:08:38] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> (TCP or cookies, say)
[17:08:47] <Brian Dickson_web_727> +1
[17:08:53] <Ben Schwartz> +1
[17:08:56] <Paul Wouters_web_969> so you go from mostly UDP to massive TCP load ?
[17:09:04] <Paul Wouters_web_969> now you have 3 problems
[17:09:06] <Warren Kumari_web_881> for (addr=1; addr <=2**32; addr++) {send (src,  "Error") }.  :-P
[17:09:08] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Or cookies everywhere, FTW
[17:09:18] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> The reporting server is separable easily.
[17:09:25] <Warren Kumari_web_881> Gimme a sec, and I'm sure I can come up with a 4th :-)
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[17:10:10] <hugo-salgado> Could it be renamed to "resolver-feedback" on adoption? The resemblance to "EDE" is a bit confusing...
[17:10:31] <Peter van Dijk_web_982> There is a strong connection with EDE, but it does sound even more eerily similar than that connection supports, yes :)
[17:10:40] <Jim Reid_web_474> I support WG adoption
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[17:11:03] <Warren Kumari_web_881> <no hats> I also support adoption; I think that this is useful..
[17:11:06] <Paul Wouters_web_969> a zillion resolvers will have proper TCP or COOKIEs. i'm not too worried about forced stuff. Just use cloudflare :)
[17:11:24] <Paul Wouters_web_969> (s/forced/forged)
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[17:12:16] <Warren Kumari_web_881> cat errors.txt | awk '{print $3}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn   ?
[17:12:33] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Maybe an additional flag, saying "Yeah, I know it has problems" so the client won't report about known borkedness
[17:12:47] <Paul Wouters_web_969> we could use https://exampe.com/security.txt as the reporting url :)
[17:12:49] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Oh, nice!
[17:12:55] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> (for the flag)
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[17:13:25] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Can we send the chat log to the list? ;-)
[17:13:29] <Petr Špaček_web_912> @Brian So you disable it for a while.
[17:13:36] <Paul Wouters_web_969> let's all send the chat log to the list :)
[17:13:39] <Vicky Risk_web_995> there is an etherpad
[17:13:48] <Petr Špaček_web_912> You can even do sampling and send the option just for 1/1000 of queries or so.
[17:13:56] <Peter van Dijk_web_433> https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/dnsop/2021-03-11.html
[17:14:16] <Paul Wouters_web_969> petr: oh maybe a Proof of Work blockchain submission process ? :)
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[17:15:13] <Paul Wouters_web_969> +1 (seriously)
[17:15:21] <Peter van Dijk_web_433> hashcash
[17:15:32] <Petr Špaček_web_912> :rofl:
[17:15:32] <Vittorio Bertola_web_597> Perhaps a DMARC-like "percentage" flag that tells clients to generate a random number and only report the error if it's less than that. So if you have a lot of traffic you can only get a small fraction of the reports.
[17:16:00] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Other ideas: match client to source IP and ASN, and track certain kinds of failure situations against ASN, with flags and samples. E.g. things like validation failure due to transport stripping DNSSEC records.
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[17:16:19] <Petr Špaček_web_912> @Vittorio you can do that already, just send the option defined in the draft 1/1000 of times.
[17:16:36] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Same with per-ASN.
[17:17:07] <Paul Wouters_web_969> your email will be down along with DNS :)
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[17:17:33] <Paul Wouters_web_969> so will your reporting server i guess :P
[17:18:05] <Petr Špaček_web_912> I strongly recommend reading the draft. Most importantly, authoritative servers opt-in by sending _another_ domain name where reports should be sent. This allows sampling, sending to a third party which will do processing and call you phone when something seriously blows up.
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[17:18:41] <Peter Thomassen_web_880> thank you for the heads-up and sorry for the noise
[17:18:50] <Paul Wouters_web_969> if you cant monitor your own DNS queries from external view, why can you keep up that reporting server that does nothing for 5 years until you need it ?
[17:19:26] <Petr Špaček_web_912> @Paul Again, it's like DMARC. You don't have to, you can pay a third party do to all the analysis and alerting for you.
[17:19:44] <Petr Špaček_web_912> (If you wish, you can _also_ run everything yourself.)
[17:20:20] <Brian Dickson_web_727> You can monitor from SOME external views, but not from EVERY external vantage point. So, apples/oranges. I don't disagree on the sentiment, but it still has value.
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[17:20:47] <Brian Dickson_web_727> It also supports the concept of a fire drill... put in an occasional intentional error just to trigger reports.
[17:20:52] <Petr Špaček_web_912> In fact you decide for each individual query if you want to monitor it or not - and where reports should be sent.
[17:21:01] <Brian Dickson_web_727> (It == implicit in the functionality, not the draft itself.)
[17:21:20] <Paul Wouters_web_969> brian: if it is a remote corner of the world transport error. then nice to get the report , but your infrastructure is not broken. there might not be much you can do
[17:21:31] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> We'll be looking for comment and possibly adoption on the mailing list-- detailed feedback like this will be helpful
[17:22:15] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> both issues and psosible ways to resolve them
[17:22:16] <Ben Schwartz> Alexander Mayrhofer_web_767: I think servers are surely free to do that.  I don't think it's standards-relevant.
[17:22:22] <Paul Wouters_web_969> Can't we  standarize Viktor sending out emails :)
[17:22:38] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Idea: also have the reporting server provide its own contact info, so if the remote corner broken infra problem exists, there is the ability for the auth to report to the operator of the recursive... somehow.
[17:22:51] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Encryption towards auths isn't there yet, but hopefully soon.
[17:22:57] <mcr> A few thousand clones of Viktor shouldn't be a problem. Does Viktor come with a Dockerfile?
[17:23:08] <Jerry Lundström> lol
[17:23:13] <Petr Špaček_web_912> :rofl:
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[17:26:30] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> For those who don't know, Viktor  does all the useful IETF work as a hobby. It has nothing to do with his $dayjob.
[17:27:08] <Brian Dickson_web_727> Okay, wow!
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[17:30:36] <mcr> I think that there is a jarring conceptual thing on TEEs: many of us are used to thinking of them as being i2c connected TPM chips, which run at like 1Mhz, and have 2K of ram. (or that 286 running XENIX that talks to your keyboard) But, the TEE environment inside the main CPU can be as big as anything else, but it usually has no VM, no kernel access, and does no I/O.
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[17:31:25] <Ben Schwartz> Yeah, it's called an "enclave" but it's more like a "mode".
[17:32:03] <mcr> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-add-server-policy-selection/   also contains a way to carry an attestation about this Trusted Application to the client.  Not everyone thinks this is a good thing.
[17:32:42] <mcr> https://jari.volvo/manual.html
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[17:33:33] <George Michaelson_web_680> not doing IO makes it a bit hard to understand the applicability to a protocol on the wire
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[17:34:10] <hta> The inside-TEE software would have to be auditable somehow.
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[17:34:31] <hta> If it's allowed to have any side effects, you can attach a console to the side effect.
[17:34:42] <mcr> @George, you get no access to the ethernet chip. That's what it means to have no I/O.  But, the TCP/UDP contents are copied in, still encrypted.   The TEE software would have to come with an attestation.
[17:35:17] <Jiri Novotny_web_172> @george well the IO is available through an OCALL/ECALL interface which is a slower way, however there are interesting advances with use of io_uring
[17:36:11] <Jiri Novotny_web_172> @hta - auditable software is one of the assumptions
[17:36:20] <Jiri Novotny_web_172> e.g. opensource
[17:36:29] <mcr> @hta, I suspect that there will be more rowhammer-like attacks, but this is not a new thing, and would apply to not using the TEE.  I suspect the TEE stuff will be easier to validate as being immune, or make immune.
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[17:37:55] <mcr> @warren, see above pointer to Tiru's document.
[17:39:48] <George Michaelson_web_680> CFRG and explore relatoonship to homomorphic?
[17:39:49] <Jiri Novotny_web_172> also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/
[17:40:19] <Warren Kumari_web_881> Yes, I've been following teep, but we need to fully understand what is being attested to.
[17:41:37] <Jiri Novotny_web_172> that's true
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[17:44:06] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> @warren this is why I love the pearg idea
[17:44:18] <Warren Kumari_web_881> Yah. It sounds facinating...
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[17:44:29] <Daniel Migault_web_926> dk: can you provide more detail why you believe TEE might not be as secure as mentioned.
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[17:45:41] <mcr> My document is draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-considerations, sorry for the missing "-ietf" in the title.
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[17:46:12] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> Who is the "we" in "we all love to talk about IoT devices"?
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[17:46:32] <Peter van Dijk_web_433> If it's not you, it's them
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[17:54:03] <Erik Nygren_web_306> +1 to Ben, this can be very dynamic.
[17:54:20] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> Some devices use the first one, yes.
[17:54:23] <Shumon Huque_web_845> RRsets are atomic and unordered, but end systems often employ address selection algorithms which will order how they might be used.
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[17:54:36] <Erik Nygren_web_306> We spent lots of time trying to solve this in draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-03 and kept finding the rabbit hole of corner cases gets deeper and deeper
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[17:55:05] <Shumon Huque_web_845> Traditionally, many implementations will shuffle the records in the RRset, but the DNS protocol does not require that.
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[17:55:28] <David Lawrence_web_471> "likely" is the operative word here.
[17:55:32] <Erik Nygren_web_306> A version of BIND10 also tried to sort by default and it broke a bunch environments horribly and got rolled-back as a default.
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[17:56:05] <Erik Nygren_web_306> But some servers handing out pools of IPs are unhappy if you just pick the first one in the set.  Many assume clients will distribute fairly uniformly.
[17:56:14] <Shumon Huque_web_845> Yes, I remember that Erik - that affected one of my customers too :)
[17:56:25] <Vittorio Bertola_web_597> I hear camels complaining. Their backs ache.
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[17:57:20] <Vladimír Čunát_web_329> BIND10 broke environments?
[17:57:26] <Shumon Huque_web_845> BIND9!
[17:57:40] <Shumon Huque_web_845> BIND10 has not awoken from the dead I believe :)
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[18:01:00] <Paul Wouters_web_969> it is clear. next one is online
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[18:01:09] <Paul Wouters_web_969> they said that during plenary
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[18:01:09] <Paul Hoffman_web_612> Bye y'all!
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[18:01:20] <John Woodworth_web_931> thanks!
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[18:01:28] <Suzanne Woolf_web_654> Thanks everybody!!
[18:01:31] <Brian Dickson_web_857> Thanks and see ya
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