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[10:25:24] Suzanne has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF 108
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[10:56:34] <Ralf Weber> Moin! Is the meetecho still closed?
[10:56:45] <Meetecho> Ralf Weber: no, it should be u and running
[10:56:49] <Meetecho> *up
[10:56:51] <Alessandro Amirante> No, it's open.
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[10:56:58] <Alessandro Amirante> Are you having troubles joining?
[10:57:05] Alessandro Ghedini joins the room
[10:57:18] <Ralf Weber> Strange - yeah it counts down two hours
[10:57:28] <Alessandro Amirante> you picked the wrong link
[10:57:30] Wes Hardaker joins the room
[10:57:36] <Alessandro Amirante> that's the next dnsop session
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[10:58:09] <Ralf Weber> Oh my bad - it is 13:00 here ;-)
[10:58:11] <Suzanne> We do have different rooms for the two dnsop sessions, and will have to switch between them. This is for Session I.
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[10:58:26] <andrew_campling> @Ralk It's definitely up and running
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[10:59:00] <Andrew Campling> *Ralf
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[11:00:35] <Andrew Campling> Use https://gce.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=dnsop&amp;short=&amp;item=1
[11:00:38] Dan McArdle joins the room
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[11:00:45] <PE> is etherpad still where we sign up (blue sheet)?
[11:00:52] 加藤 朗 leaves the room
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[11:00:58] <PE> seems to just have agenda
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[11:01:10] <Tim Wicinski> Blue Sheets are automaticlly generated from MeetEcho
[11:01:11] <Wes Hardaker x2> bluesheets are automatically generated by meetecho now
[11:01:12] <Florian Obser> blue sheets are generated automagically
[11:01:16] Erik Nygren joins the room
[11:01:19] <PE> sweet
[11:01:20] Akira Kato joins the room
[11:01:20] <Wes Hardaker x2> x3!
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[11:02:14] <Dan York> Hmm... I'm not hearing audio. Maybe I need to rejoin
[11:02:17] Alister Winfield leaves the room
[11:02:19] <Shivan Sahib> Benno you're not sending audio
[11:02:19] <Wes Hardaker x2> no
[11:02:20] <Wes Hardaker x2> its benno
[11:02:22] <Tim Wicinski> Benno is muted
[11:02:23] Alister Winfield joins the room
[11:02:29] <Wes Hardaker x2> he has no mic lit up on his profile
[11:02:29] <Joey> Can't hear Benno
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[11:02:47] <Joey> *thumbs up*
[11:02:47] <Paul Hoffman> You scared a lot of people, Benno
[11:02:49] Mark Andrews joins the room
[11:02:49] <Dan York> He looks quite happy, though
[11:02:54] Desiree Miloshevic joins the room
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[11:03:13] <Kaveh Ranjbar> :)
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[11:03:18] <Dan York> Okay, I'm still not hearing him
[11:03:32] <Brian Haberman> That's your end then, Dan.
[11:03:34] sftcd joins the room
[11:03:35] <Meetecho> Dan York: there's a button to just reconnect audio, no need to rejoin
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[11:03:45] <Meetecho> lower-right corner, circular arrows
[11:03:50] <Suzanne Woolf> Circling arrows at the bottom right of your screen
[11:03:55] <Dan York> Ah, it's a local issue with my audio devices
[11:04:12] <Meetecho> (circling arrows sounds much better, apologies for my broken Italenglish :) )
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[11:05:07] <Jonathan Reed> Is it just me, or are there artifacts from previous slides in the screen share?
[11:05:09] Erik Nygren joins the room
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[11:05:15] <Leif Johansson> not just you
[11:05:18] <Dan York> I was getting those, too
[11:05:19] <Brian Haberman> Not just you
[11:05:21] Jay Daley joins the room
[11:05:26] <Suzanne> Chairs appreciate your patience, we're still getting used to meetecho also
[11:05:33] <Andrew Campling> Definitely artifacts from earlier slides
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[11:06:18] <Suzanne> those artifacts didn't happen when we tested last night….interesting.
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[11:06:22] <Leif Johansson> I don't think its anything you did
[11:06:27] Jeff Osborn leaves the room
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[11:06:27] <Andrew Campling> Possibly a sending browser issue?
[11:06:43] <Leif Johansson> gone now
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[11:07:42] <Suzanne Woolf> @andrew I don't think Benno switched browsers however. Happy to debug with @meetecho if we can reproduce.
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[11:08:02] <Andrew Campling> It seems okay now, temp glitch?
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[11:08:43] <Jonathan Reed> and it's back :-)
[11:08:47] Sandra Murphy joins the room
[11:08:58] <Jonathan Reed> Seems like it's treating the slide backgrounds as transparent or something.
[11:09:00] <Mike StJohns> maybe benno should video mute
[11:09:02] Peter Van Roste joins the room
[11:09:06] <Leif Johansson> yup
[11:09:10] Weiler joins the room
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[11:09:31] <sftcd> IIRC meetecho snarfs a copy of the video (so it can work in more hotel meeting rooms), so probably some frame rate thing
[11:09:43] Jen Linkova joins the room
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[11:10:14] <sftcd> not distracting here fwiw
[11:10:28] <Joey> +1 to draft-ietf-terminology, seems cleaner
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[11:12:31] <Peter van Dijk> Benno, unmute
[11:12:37] moritz joins the room
[11:12:38] <George Michaelson> did benno just mute himself thinking he was unmuting
[11:12:39] wilm leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[11:12:39] <Paul Wouters> you were not muted when you said you were muted
[11:12:42] <Jared Mauch> i see bennos lips moving but no audio
[11:12:44] Jordi Palet Martinez joins the room
[11:13:12] <Mike StJohns> interesting - when he video muted the indicated speed for the slides went way down... and is staying there
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[11:14:59] <Benjamin Schwartz> I'm still seeing video corruption
[11:15:02] Jasdip Singh joins the room
[11:15:06] <moritz> same
[11:15:07] <Leif Johansson> me too
[11:15:12] <Paul Hoffman> Are people other than me seeing weird stuff on Benno's screen, like artifacts?
[11:15:23] <Joey> good now
[11:15:23] <Paul Hoffman> Ah, OK, I'm not alone. Thx.
[11:15:27] <Peter van Dijk> Paul, yes
[11:15:27] <Yoshitaka Aharen> now it's good
[11:15:28] <Benjamin Schwartz> Meetecho: We are seeing video corruption
[11:15:29] <Jonathan Reed> I was seeing obscured text at the left and top, but back now
[11:15:29] <Mike StJohns> +1
[11:15:36] <Yoshitaka Aharen> corruption again...
[11:15:40] <Mike StJohns> @benno mute your video
[11:15:48] <Leif Johansson> @benno try muting your video
[11:16:17] <Suzanne> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/ has the meeting materials for those who might want to follow the slides on their own
[11:16:21] <Dan York> @meetecho - We are seeing video artifacts in the shared screen
[11:16:33] <alex-meetecho> artifacts are coming from the chair's laptop. nothing we can do about that sorry
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[11:17:43] <alex-meetecho> the screen is captured by the browser and sent as a video stream
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[11:18:39] <alex-meetecho> for some reason the browser is capturing that way, like it's not updating the screen for a while
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[11:19:27] <Leif Johansson> maybe one of the other chairs can share?
[11:19:30] <George Michaelson> Maybe he should pass the role to Tim or Suz, if his own laptop is a problem?
[11:19:38] <Mike StJohns> video muting didn't seem to help much
[11:19:48] <Kazunori Fujiwara> Hmm. push mic icon to mute mic...
[11:20:05] Fred Baker leaves the room
[11:20:16] <Meetecho> If he shared an application, some flickering can also happen if he's not on that application currently, or on a different screen (depending on the OS)
[11:20:18] Simon Leinen joins the room
[11:20:50] <Warren Kumari> It also seems to work better if he is not in full screen (or, at least, I didn't see it)
[11:20:52] <Meetecho> But yes, as Alex said, this is something browsers do on their own, we can just ask for a screen/app being shared and get a reference to the stream to share
[11:21:04] chi che joins the room
[11:21:09] <alex-meetecho> Benno Overeinder: can you try not entering full screen mode?
[11:21:14] Fred Baker joins the room
[11:21:19] <Paul Hoffman> Is this problem only in DNSOP, or everywhere?
[11:21:23] <alex-meetecho> It might be something related to that
[11:21:33] <alex-meetecho> Paul Hoffman: it's the first time we see this
[11:21:36] <Jonathan Reed> yeah, it does seem better outside of full screen mode
[11:21:37] Carrick joins the room
[11:21:39] <sftcd> it's all just an inventive slide-transition scheme:-)
[11:21:56] <Kazunori Fujiwara> If meetecho have 'PDF' share function, we may be happy...
[11:22:03] Marco Davids joins the room
[11:22:10] <Benno Overeinder> I can't select my Preview window.
[11:22:13] <Warren Kumari> ... it does keep people more involved ...
[11:22:31] Petr Spacek leaves the room
[11:22:33] <Weiler> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-dnsop-sessa-svcbhttps-rr-slides-for-ietf-108-00
[11:22:33] Petr Spacek joins the room
[11:22:40] <Benno Overeinder> only full screen.  sorry
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[11:22:57] <alex-meetecho> Benno Overeinder: we do see your screen when you exit full screen mode
[11:23:21] <George Michaelson> what OS. what browser (to bind to meetecho)?
[11:23:23] <Warren Kumari> @Beno: if you just drag preview to be "big" that might work.
[11:23:35] <Warren Kumari> (instead of full screen)
[11:23:40] <George Michaelson> are you e.g. a corner-case of OS and WM and browser?
[11:23:47] <Suzanne> A little baffling since our previous config worked fine in the test room, admittedly I'm worried about ad hoc debugging losing us all ability to share.
[11:24:14] Niket Agrawal leaves the room
[11:24:56] <Paul Wouters> isnt there private range for experimentation ?
[11:24:58] Weiler leaves the room
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[11:25:46] <Peter van Dijk> 65280-65534     0xFF00-0xFFFE     Private Use
[11:26:32] <Paul Wouters> so the motivation for first come first save of half the space seems a little odd.
[11:26:42] <Paul Wouters> serve.....
[11:26:44] <Benno Overeinder> Thanks Warren, will do so.
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[11:27:51] <Warren Kumari> ... ok, well I was wr4ong!
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[11:28:02] <David Lawrence> Peter was citing the dns type private range, not the key range
[11:28:08] <Benno Overeinder> :-)
[11:28:21] <Paul Wouters> ah
[11:28:26] Weiler joins the room
[11:28:37] <Peter van Dijk> oh, i must have missed something then, bit distracted here, sorry
[11:29:15] Ulrich Wisser joins the room
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[11:30:36] <Peter van Dijk> | 65280-65534 | Private Use             |
[11:30:50] <Peter van Dijk> but it turns out the numbers are the same!
[11:31:03] <Peter van Dijk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-00#section-12.1.1
[11:31:30] <Mike StJohns> @benno - try resizing the window when you're out of full screen mode to cover more of the screen.  It looks like the artifact is matching the difference between full screen and windowed mode for some reason.
[11:31:43] <Andrew Campling> Worth trying someone else driving the slides with a different os / browser combination?
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[11:37:58] <Jared Mauch> sending video should also send audio IMO
[11:38:06] <Jared Mauch> it seems you can do the two independently
[11:38:07] Hugo Salgado (jabber) leaves the room: Connection failed: connection closed
[11:38:13] <Meetecho> Jared Mauch: it's done this way on purpose
[11:38:15] Hugo Salgado (jabber) joins the room
[11:38:18] <Dan York> Yes, you have to press BOTH buttons
[11:38:21] <Meetecho> Many people don't want to send video by default
[11:38:24] <alex-meetecho> video and audio are different floors
[11:38:44] <Meetecho> And there are cases where people may want to send video only but not audio (like chairs hovering while someone else's presenting)
[11:38:50] <Jared Mauch> sure.. i've seen this before when people hit video but think it does both (i suspect)
[11:38:56] <Meetecho> So yes, they're different floors for maximum flexibility
[11:39:10] Carrick leaves the room
[11:39:12] <Jared Mauch> yes, not objecting to that, mostly the PBCAK problem :-)
[11:39:15] <Meetecho> Jared Mauch: we tried to make it clear in both documentation and the video tutorial we recorded
[11:39:33] <Meetecho> Apologies if this is causing confusion
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[11:39:43] <Matthias Hudobnik> can we have the link of slides please ;-)?
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[11:39:57] <Geoff Huston> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-dnsop-sessa-draft-ietf-dnsop-delegation-only-01-00
[11:40:09] <Matthias Hudobnik> great
[11:40:10] <Matthias Hudobnik> thx!
[11:40:11] <Andrew Campling> All the DNSOP slides are at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/dnsop
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[11:40:28] <Matthias Hudobnik> ahhh i see ;-)! thx!
[11:40:29] <nygren > (For later, it doesn't look like slides for 464XLAT/NAT64 Optimization is on the Agenda page?)
[11:40:34] <Meetecho> Notice that there's a "Meeting Materials" tab where you can find the slides too, usually (if they were uploaded to the datatracker)
[11:40:51] <Meetecho> Fourth icon in the top/right row
[11:41:30] <nygren > (on, nevermind.  they are on the agenda page for the next session.)
[11:41:59] Tommy C joins the room
[11:42:14] <Mike StJohns> is there a way to force reload this list?  the  list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda doesn't agree with this list
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[11:46:20] <Jared Mauch> many NOT_WATCHING errors just appeared
[11:46:24] <nygren > For the list at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/agenda there is a different list under each time slot.  That's what threw me off.
[11:46:24] <Jared Mauch> (for me as a user)
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[11:46:27] <George Michaelson> I get the popup MP_NOT_FOUND
[11:46:29] <Jonathan Reed> I got "START_ERROR_ and "WATCH_ERROR"
[11:46:34] <George Michaelson> (from his side I think)
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[11:47:25] <Mike StJohns> +1
[11:47:31] <Andrew Campling> It it's an Apple device he may need to grant permission to share
[11:48:35] <alex-meetecho> Tim April: if you're on macOS catalina there's a os setting you need to tweak
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[11:48:42] <alex-meetecho> it's captured in the instructions
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[11:49:02] <alex-meetecho> Benno Overeinder: maybe you can just try refreshing the page and re-login
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[11:49:49] <Jared Mauch> success! :-)
[11:49:56] <Simon Leinen> \o/
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[11:51:24] <Benno Overeinder> Refresh did the magic!
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[11:51:51] <Benno Overeinder> I can select the Preview window now directly.  Not the full window.
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[11:55:46] <Peter van Dijk> MIC: I have a draft in dprive that solves the downgrade problem by using the parent DS record, which -is- signed
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[11:57:26] <Peter van Dijk> ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vandijk-dprive-ds-dot-signal-and-pin/ )
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[12:04:02] <George Michaelson> PLEASE CAN SOMEBODY MUTE THIER CHAT TONE
[12:04:12] <George Michaelson> one of the CHAIRS
[12:04:19] <George Michaelson> the BAJINGGG is KILLING ME
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[12:05:04] <Suzanne Woolf> sorry George
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[12:05:25] <Geoff Huston> not just George
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[12:06:45] <Dan York> Hmm... but both Australians... :-)
[12:07:11] <Peter van Dijk> Paul Hoffman, well said - I agree we should not be looking at '3 solutions', but start with 'these are the problems'
[12:07:17] <George Michaelson> loyal subjects of her maj.
[12:07:36] <Geoff Huston> so its getting on in the evening and the bajjings are somewhat irritating and maybe my tolerance is low
[12:08:05] <David Lawrence> Agree with Peter, Paul and ... the rest of the apostles
[12:08:12] <Dan York> :-)
[12:08:16] <Jared Mauch> (paul, where's the beard?!?! :-) )
[12:08:19] <Ray Bellis> oh!  Paul lost his bear!
[12:08:22] <Ray Bellis> d
[12:08:25] <Dan York> THAT IS NOT PAUL!
[12:08:43] <Dan York> No beard? No vest? How do we know this is actually Paul?
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[12:08:55] <Brian Haberman> Not Paul...
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[12:14:02] <Donald Eastlake> Maybe a hum would get a better response
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[12:15:09] <Yoshiro Yoneya> +1 for hum
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[12:16:32] <Mike StJohns> not 130 - somewhere around 1/2 -3/4 due to jabber duplicates
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[12:16:41] <Dan York> Ah, interesting
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[12:17:01] <Andrew Campling> Ideally put the question in the chat too
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[12:17:29] <Dan York> So the question is "Should the working group adopt this draft?"
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[12:19:32] <David Lawrence> One thing that isn't clear in the hum tool is you can willfully abstain.
[12:19:43] <George Michaelson> needs work
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[12:19:54] <Peter van Dijk> I also wondered whether 'disagree' was 'do nothing' or 'hum softly'
[12:20:00] <Jared Mauch> i thought we were humming on Pauls beard ;-)
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[12:20:11] <Joey> thanks!
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[12:20:18] <Jim Reid> Can the hum volume go to 11, like Spinal Tap?
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[12:20:53] <Ralf Weber> I think the test sessions had more options for hums (being quite was one of them)
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[12:59:26] <Andrew Campling> Background music prior to sessions started would be good
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[12:59:52] <Dan York> But what is good background music for DNS?
[12:59:53] <hardaker> I could hum?
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[13:00:19] <hardaker> tunes.            172800    IN    NS    dns4.nic.tunes.
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[13:00:40] <Andrew Campling> https://soundcloud.com/dns-music
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[13:00:42] <Suzanne> Music to create new RRtypes to….?
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[13:01:05] <Jared Mauch> Yes we hear you both
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[13:02:36] <Dan York> I can help with note taking
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[13:02:54] <Dan York> (As can anyone else: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-dnsop?both )
[13:02:54] <Suzanne Woolf> @dan thanks
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[13:03:22] <Tommy Jensen> @Andrew, having that music on softly in the background makes the slides seem much more dramatic
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[13:03:37] <David Lawrence> No beating up on Paul please.  We're congenial here.
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[13:05:23] <Andrew Campling> @Tommy - it certainly gives Paul's presentation a sinister edge
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[13:08:40] <Peter van Dijk> +1 on this, please adopt
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[13:09:42] <Mike StJohns> +1 to what Sam is saying
[13:10:03] <Mike StJohns> point to point is a very different model from point to multi-point
[13:10:16] <Peter van Dijk> that is true, DNSSEC has a distinct lack of negotiation
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[13:11:13] <David Lawrence> Oh that Benno
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[13:11:30] <Suzanne> I tried to step in & was muted to, so there's that :-)
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[13:11:37] <Daniel Gillmor> if you're on meetecho, you'll see the box with your name on it turn green when the chairs move you from the queue to live.
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[13:11:52] <David Lawrence> Oh that Suz
[13:11:57] <Daniel Gillmor> when that happens, you should go ahead and speak, not wait for a chair to unmute themselves to say "go ahead".
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[13:12:30] <Peter van Dijk> I take my +1 back
[13:12:34] <Paul Wouters> specification required ?? I never heard of "standard required"
[13:12:46] <Weiler> Yes, I think they should be standard required and that 6014 was the wrong thing to do.
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[13:14:25] <Suzanne> @Paul the string IANA uses in the relevant registries is "Standards Action"
[13:14:25] <Weiler> Paul: yes, from RFC2535
[13:14:28] <Chris Box> @dkg thanks for the tip
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[13:14:31] <Daniel Gillmor> the difference between PGP, TLS, etc, and DNS is that the former group has negotiation between peers.
[13:14:38] <Weiler> +1 to Suzanne
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[13:14:43] <Daniel Gillmor> DNS is basically unilateral
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[13:16:59] <andrew_campling> Next century seems pretty future proof
[13:17:12] <Suzanne Woolf> Cutting the mic line after dkg
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[13:18:07] <Sean Turner> We (tls) now allow watev
[13:18:20] <Paul Wouters> the problem isn't adding. the problem is in code removal
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[13:18:59] <Sean Turner> @wouters agree
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[13:19:02] <Weiler> DKG: that framing (unilateral publication w/o negotiation) is a clearer way of saying what I wish I had said.  I hope that is why you're in queue.
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[13:19:16] <Daniel Gillmor> it is
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[13:19:19] <Benjamin Schwartz> Found it: https://www.iana.org/assignments/ds-rr-types/ds-rr-types.xhtml
[13:19:34] <Peter van Dijk> Ben, and https://www.iana.org/assignments/dnssec-nsec3-parameters/dnssec-nsec3-parameters.xhtml
[13:20:11] <Benjamin Schwartz> The first one already indicates MANDATORY and OPTIONAL
[13:20:19] <Sean Turner> less is more here
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[13:20:59] <Sean Turner> adding algs is hard removing them is way harder
[13:21:51] <Sean Turner> in tls we decided to include "recommended" so these algs can get in but there is no expectation to implement
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[13:22:37] <Paul Wouters> sean: i dont think that is a good solution. It is basically pushing US-centric algos to only state and anything else to "go away" state
[13:23:21] <Martin Thomson> The TLS model works well enough.  Allow them all, recommend only a few things.
[13:23:34] <Martin Thomson> RFC required is silly.
[13:23:34] <Sean Turner> what MT said
[13:23:58] <Sean Turner> they are new disclaimers
[13:24:20] <Paul Wouters> but a dnssec resolver does not really have a choice to say "do not do Middle Earth cipher"
[13:24:23] <sftcd> not sure DNSSEC is the same - if someone publishes a zone with only national/vanity DS then what? much more likely to happen than TLS with exactly one ciphersuite
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[13:24:54] <Weiler> stepping out of queue; letting DKG make his own point.
[13:24:59] <sftcd> recommended column is still good, but doesn't help as much as with TLS
[13:25:13] <Benjamin Schwartz> sftcd: I believe validators will treat the record as valid but unsigned
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[13:25:40] <Suzanne> @sftcd that discussion was held re: putting GOST in the registry in 2010, interesting that we're now revisiting with experience
[13:25:47] <sftcd> @ben: in practice or theory?
[13:25:52] <Peter van Dijk> Ben, that's correct
[13:26:11] <sftcd> @suz: with some experience, not sure DNSSEC deployment is enough to claim lots of experience;-(
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[13:26:22] <Peter van Dijk> sftcd, I did an experiment with unknown DNSSEC algos and unknown DS digests in early 2019 - as a result of that experiment, Google Public DNS and Knot resolver were corrected in that area. The rest already conformed.
[13:26:26] <Paul Wouters> benno is muted again
[13:26:28] <Benjamin Schwartz> sftcd: I'm sure there have been bugs but this has been somewhat battle-tested with the recent-ish introduction of Elliptic curve signatures
[13:26:43] <sftcd> ah good so, that lessens the concern
[13:27:00] <Peter van Dijk> yes, but it's a kind of very quiet downgrade, so still some concern
[13:27:03] <Daniel Migault> unlike TLS, DS is in the root zone.
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[13:27:50] <Benno Overeinder> Sorry ekr, we closed the mic line after Daniel.
[13:28:11] <Martin Thomson> The “RFC Required” policy [IANA-CONS] is often used inappropriately as a proxy for another property.  For example, if the intent is to require community consensus then “IETF Consensus”, “Standards Action” or possibly “IESG Approval” are likely to be more appropriate. Where the intent is to insist on a particular standard of documentation for a specification, then the “Specification Required” policy with additional guidance to a designated expert can acheive the same end.
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[13:28:30] <Sean Turner> Getting a code point is whatev - implemeting is more important
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[13:28:38] <Jim Reid> How are those DS records in the root "different" if they use different crypto
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[13:29:11] <Martin Thomson> dkg are you saying that DNS needs FEWER options than TLS?
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[13:29:16] <Daniel Gillmor> yes
[13:29:20] <Suzanne> @MT good point, was trying to figure out how to frame it, question is what outcomes/constraints do we want, registry policy is implementation.
[13:29:21] <Peter van Dijk> DNS needs fewer options, period
[13:29:22] <Martin Thomson> good.  because I agree
[13:29:28] <Benjamin Schwartz> dkg: This seems a lot like publishing a signed message on a mailing list.  Also PGP is "IETF review" ... very strict.
[13:29:32] <ekr@jabber.org> I agree with DKG that we should have as few algorithms as possible. However, I think the question at hand is whether restricting code point assignment helps that
[13:29:35] <Mark Andrews> It was deliberately made difficult.
[13:29:40] <ekr@jabber.org> Or whether it just results in code point squatting
[13:29:42] <Sean Turner> Less is WAY more
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[13:30:11] <Daniel Gillmor> ekr: are we seeing codepoint squatting in DNSSEC crypto algorithms?
[13:30:12] <Paul Wouters> most of us agree with few as possible because we have a baseline trust in the ones we have
[13:30:20] <ekr@jabber.org> @DKG: I don't know.
[13:30:24] <Paul Wouters> it is unfair to push that trust to others.
[13:30:26] <Daniel Gillmor> some data would be nice
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[13:30:37] <ekr@jabber.org> But I don't know to what extent we have rejected algorithms
[13:30:38] <Sean Turner> can hear
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[13:31:07] <Sean Turner> implemented and used?
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[13:31:26] <Daniel Gillmor> ekr, what technique (aside from strict registration) do you think would be useful to avoid codepoint squatting?
[13:31:26] <Benjamin Schwartz> It seems like the only real cause for concern here would be if some participants drop support for the existing/widely used digest algorithms
[13:31:29] <Valery Smyslov> openssl supports GOST
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[13:31:50] <Paul Wouters> we havent yet rejected any algo in DNSSEC
[13:31:54] <Sean Turner> @Valery it supports lots of algs ...
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[13:32:00] <ekr@jabber.org> @DKG, well, if the code point space was nice and large we could just allow registrations and then implementations would be free to ignore them
[13:32:01] <Benjamin Schwartz> GOST is already in the DS registry.  This was triggered by a request to update it for GOSTv2.
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[13:32:13] <Paul Wouters> GOST is not GOST :)
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[13:32:18] <Daniel Gillmor> Ben Schwartz: i agree that publishing a signed message to a mailing list is a lot like DNSSEC.  In particular, it's similar because (a) the signature is often stripped or damaged, and (b) very few people actually check the signature.
[13:32:32] <Sean Turner> @wouters true
[13:32:33] <Valery Smyslov> @benjamine exactly
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[13:32:59] <Peter van Dijk> It took years for somebody to point out to me that I was sending messages with broken PGP sigs to the powerdns announce mailing list. Several years.
[13:33:10] <Daniel Gillmor> depressing :white_frowning_face:
[13:33:11] <tale > @djk sadly true
[13:33:22] <Benjamin Schwartz> I would make half the registry RFC Required and half Standards Action
[13:33:39] <Valery Smyslov> The new GOST adopted in Russia in 2012 is different (and hopefully better) than 2002-version of GOST/ It was also 1994-GOST, but it was deprecated long ago
[13:33:44] <Sean Turner> diea thia drft deprecate the old one?
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[13:34:02] <Sean Turner> does this draft ...
[13:34:16] <Valery Smyslov> @sean I believe so (although I'm not author)
[13:34:17] <Suzanne> the RRtype registry has a split policy. "Expert review, unless the experts think it should be standards action in thiat specific case"…not sure how common that is
[13:34:26] <sftcd> anyone know how many zones are well signed with a GOST alg?
[13:34:51] <Sean Turner> @valery better if the new one nukes (haha) the old one
[13:34:52] <Peter van Dijk> sftcd, signed or -only- signed?
[13:34:58] <Paul Wouters> 2 or 3 used to be signed. like the nic.ru ? Those were the only ones i know
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[13:35:32] <Daniel Gillmor> blocked due to Marijuana
[13:35:39] <sftcd> @peter: both'd be interesting i guess
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[13:35:55] <Daniel Gillmor> blocked due to Questionable
[13:35:59] <George Michaelson> I am glad extended-error is getting some thought
[13:36:07] <sftcd> i seem to recall someone having a web page with stats wrt DNSSEC algs but can't find it right now
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[13:36:08] <Martin Thomson> Blocked due to Cult
[13:36:12] <Paul Wouters> blocked due to we are just trying to send you an ad first
[13:36:15] <Benjamin Schwartz> Blocked due to Internet
[13:36:29] <Richard Barnes> haters, please cf. Safe Browsing
[13:36:34] <George Michaelson> but blocked is not an error
[13:36:44] <Daniel Gillmor> yeah,i turn off Safe Browsing everywhere
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[13:37:12] <Sean Turner> @dkg what you don't want to stick out ;)
[13:37:26] <Paul Wouters> ohh even with tracking cookies :(
[13:37:31] <George Michaelson> hmm. how can I use the error page to trick you into seeing a page which looks like the one you wanted?
[13:37:38] <Peter van Dijk> tracking cookies?
[13:37:51] <Daniel Gillmor> this is totally "blocked so we can show you an ad first"
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[13:37:55] <George Michaelson> steal the error page redirect. lower hanging fruit
[13:38:03] <Paul Wouters> Peter: the block answer can give a unique url so it can be used to track DNS vs TLS connections
[13:38:12] <Peter van Dijk> ah yes, it could
[13:38:29] <Peter van Dijk> but in the few deployments i'm aware of (that also want this draft to go somewhere), they only encode the name
[13:38:35] <Peter van Dijk> and those deployments are not, in fact, showing ads
[13:38:40] <Peter van Dijk> but i agree that both are possible
[13:38:42] <Mallory Knodel> Moar speech approach: you were looking for this LGBT content, let's show you content about why that's morally bad.
[13:38:46] <sftcd> "I trust this DoH server to lie to me nicely"
[13:38:47] <Paul Wouters> yet?
[13:39:19] <Viktor Dukhovni> DoT mandatory sounds an excessive requirement for error information.
[13:39:27] <Paul Wouters> this is why we need rpz 2.0 that puts answer in additional section. applies to these blocks too
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[13:39:56] <Paul Wouters> viktor: yeah because transport isnt even the important issue here.
[13:40:06] <sftcd> @paul: can I put the HTML in there too? may as well save an RTT
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[13:40:17] <Sean Turner> @stfcd but you are talking to that server through a procxy so ... :)
[13:40:18] <Daniel Gillmor> do you want arbitrary network actors to be able to inject error information?
[13:40:25] <Paul Hoffman> Just a note for the long queue: the meeting ends in 11 minutes, and Meetecho might just abruptly cut us off.
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[13:40:36] <hardaker> meetecho will drop us before that queue is drained
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[13:40:52] <Meetecho> We don't close sessions abruptly...
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[13:40:54] <ekr@jabber.org> fwiw, quic ran long ok earlier
[13:41:10] <Paul Hoffman> Think: the hotel staff turns on the music and starts collecting the coffee cups
[13:41:12] <sftcd> hey the plenary is next - run waay over:-)
[13:41:13] <Meetecho> In case you go over time, we'll notify, but won't close
[13:41:18] <Jordi Palet Martinez> I'm next presenting, as time is gone, please read draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-03 and comment in v6ops
[13:41:21] <Paul Hoffman> Ah! Thanks.
[13:41:34] <Meetecho> Of course we may still close if you go WAY over time :)
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[13:42:07] <Vittorio Bertola> We should just use the extra-text field in the EDNS response
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[13:42:42] <Suzanne> @meetecho we won't but timing is always an adventure around here….
[13:42:52] <Meetecho> :)
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[13:43:18] <hardaker> could just display, as straight text only, the contents of the EDE info field if isprintable
[13:43:23] <Paul Wouters> agreed. writing specs now that do not work with DNSSEC seems wrong
[13:43:26] <hardaker> but that's fraught with printing issues
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[13:43:38] <sftcd> rpz (as-is, not paul's wish) says that DNSSEC will win over the desired fibs, always wondered if that happens in real deployments, anyone know?
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[13:43:46] <Richard Barnes> @hardaker - step away from the UI...
[13:43:50] <hardaker> ha ha
[13:43:58] <Paul Wouters> this info should come in via DHCP or whatever. not via some in-path DNS trickery
[13:43:58] <hardaker> this draft is *about* the UI
[13:44:10] <Benno Overeinder> closing the mic queue after ekr.
[13:44:48] <Paul Wouters> +sftcd i'm waiting on rpz to become rfc to write up 2.0. been pushing the ISE (and PaulV :)
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[13:45:05] <ekr@jabber.org> assuming that I will probably get cut off from the queue: I do not believe that we would be willing to retrieve or render this page
[13:45:20] <Paul Wouters> ekr: good to know :)
[13:45:39] <ekr@jabber.org> We *might* be willing to accept one of a small set of errors and render a page that had one of those
[13:45:47] <ekr@jabber.org> (as we do now with Safe Browsing)
[13:45:48] <Daniel Gillmor> for those reading in review, the "we" that ekr is talking about is "Mozilla Firefox"
[13:46:14] <Paul Wouters> happy to not receive more alert("popup!")
[13:46:14] <Joey Salazar> @Ben @Jim: is there a (foreseeable) way around the DNSSEC incompatibility?
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[13:46:24] <Richard Barnes> ekr: so like network-provided Safe Browsing basically right?
[13:46:26] <hardaker> joey: no
[13:46:35] <ekr@jabber.org> And while we do refer to "Trusted Recursive Resolvers" we don't trust them enough to bypass TLS :)
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[13:46:46] <ekr@jabber.org> @rlb: exacrlt
[13:46:47] <hardaker> one does not simply "get around" security.
[13:46:47] <Vittorio Bertola> In the end, the point of the effort is providing users with a better UX (which, for example, may also include redress procedures for people that feel that blocks are being applied inappropriately) when access is blocked for any reason
[13:46:49] <ekr@jabber.org> exactly
[13:46:59] <Paul Wouters> joey: move the Answer to Additional Section. so supporting validators can still validate the answer AND still warn you and not display per default
[13:47:09] <Puneet Sood> Is anyone else getting frequent audio cutoff? Or is just my setup?
[13:47:10] <Vittorio Bertola> Of course if it can be done securely enough not to be usable for phishing etc
[13:47:17] <Peter van Dijk> Puneet, audio is stable for me
[13:47:18] <Allison Mankin> Is the chatter of the Meetecho pages archived?
[13:47:35] <Paul Wouters> allison: isnt it just the jabber room? so yes ?
[13:47:40] <alex-meetecho> It's the wg jabber room, it's archived in the jabber logs
[13:47:40] <Daniel Gillmor> the chatter is the jabber room, so yes.
[13:47:43] <Jared Mauch> I believe it's mirrored/bridged to Jabber
[13:47:59] <Jared Mauch> (so you don't need to join both!)
[13:48:00] <Vittorio Bertola> Not implementing this will just let users stuck with the totally bad UX of "I enter this and the browser tells me this domain does not exist", though I agree that it would still be better than introducing new attack surfaces
[13:48:13] <sftcd> @paulW: so your rpz2.0 would have the non-fiction section and the fiction section - no need for the scifi/fantasy one as well? :-)
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[13:48:25] <andrew_campling> Given the IAB doc on the need to favour end users, having meaningful explanatios why pages haven't displayed is a problem worth solving
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[13:48:28] <Peter van Dijk> Allison, your question even already made it to https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/dnsop/2020-07-29.html
[13:48:55] <Tommy Jensen> I'm incredibly interested in the actual error codes, if for no other reason than producing a feed for auditing. I, like many others here, am very hesistant to have URLs returned I am expected to display to a user.
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[13:49:32] <Jared Mauch> as someone who deals with end-user support, sometimes we have high hopes of what they can understand - they may underperform our target expectation.
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[13:49:49] <Vittorio Bertola> Any alternative suggestion on how to send meaningful messages to the user (that can be customized according to the specific blocked domain and reason for blocking) would be welcome
[13:50:10] <Daniel Gillmor> arbitrary customization is a recipe for trouble.
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[13:50:35] <Daniel Gillmor> if you really want something like this, you might have to settle for an evolving, tightly constrained language.
[13:50:43] <Vittorio Bertola> Controlled customization?
[13:50:48] <sftcd> was that last a suggestion for a bit in DNS queries meaning "it's ok to be evil if you want"?
[13:51:19] <Shivan Sahib> It might be worth distinguishing between blocking authority and the implementer of the block in this proposal
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[13:51:45] <Richard Barnes> @warren - This exists, it's called Safe Browsing and it allows no customization
[13:51:49] <Vittorio Bertola> @Shivan: that's partly already in the different EDE codes
[13:51:51] <Daniel Gillmor> do we want to require that the "fiction section" (thanks, @sftcd!) be signed by the filtering authority?
[13:52:00] <Chris Box> Audio failure. This is what I would have said. This is trying to solve a usability problem; I fully support the need to better communicate the reason why the block has occurred, such as "We think this malware". Without it, blocking will still occur but it's much harder to know why. The precise details for how this happens are clearly open for debate. There certainly need to be better technical and nontechnical controls on how this is done to prevent abuse. My inclination is it would be safer if a purely textual response is sent, rather than a URL.
[13:52:06] <Jared Mauch> @warren - i generally agree with you, but we also should be mindful that browsers may be one application, but there are others in-use and optimizing all the IETF work around browser use-case is very problematic.
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[13:52:17] <Benjamin Schwartz> Warren: I think we can get to that from the existing EDE draft
[13:52:19] <Warren Kumari> Sorry for talking REALLY quickly, time...
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[13:52:31] <Benjamin Schwartz> EDE can ship arbitrary text
[13:52:37] <Vittorio Bertola> I think that it would be great if whoever mandates filters took crypto-signed responsibility for that
[13:52:45] <Warren Kumari> Yup, but we'd need a clear way for it to be displayed.
[13:52:47] <hardaker> note that it's not text @ben.
[13:52:47] <Daniel Gillmor> "purely textual" is itself dangerous
[13:52:48] <Trent Adams> Worth keeping in mind that DNS filtering goes beyond web use, so presuposing web as a control plane may not address the full issue.
[13:52:54] <hardaker> it's octets
[13:53:00] <hardaker> which may or may not be text
[13:53:15] <andrew_campling> DNS filtering exists, finding a solution that works with this reality is important, and not just for web apps
[13:53:20] <Warren Kumari> I asgree with EKR, but I think that there is a tradeoff between users clicking through and this.
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[13:53:34] <Vittorio Bertola> The point is that I would like to tell the user "this is blocked by law so bad luck" or "this is blocked because you turned on parental control, if you did so by mistake click here to turn it off [for everything / for this domain]"
[13:53:42] <Jared Mauch> +1 andrew_campling, i think the question is signaling to the application
[13:53:48] <Richard Barnes> Application vendors are not going to accept randos presenting UI
[13:53:53] <Warren Kumari> Currently enterprises and simialr do worse things...
[13:53:55] <Paul Wouters> not unsigned or else you cannot tell the difference between voluntary and involuntary censors
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[13:53:57] <Benjamin Schwartz> hardaker: "EXTRA-TEXT, a variable length, UTF-8 encoded [RFC5198], text field"
[13:53:57] <Trent Adams> +1 @andrew_campling
[13:54:01] <Jordi Palet Martinez> again, as we will have no time for the last discussion, please please read draft-ietf-v6ops-464xlat-optimization-03 and comment in v6ops
[13:54:16] <hardaker> @ben ha mabye I misremember that conclusion.
[13:54:24] <hardaker> (you'd think I'd remember it: I wrote that section)
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[13:54:42] <Vittorio Bertola> @Paul: if this comes in a response by your previously authenticated DoH resolver, you do have some certainty of the origin
[13:54:59] <Tommy Jensen> I think we should restrict ourselves to well-defined error codes, and leave interpreting and communicating those error codes to the user-facing layer. The OS resolver receiving errors can signal browsers, and browsers can customize their user messaging. Not sure they need more info from the resolver than "error: censored" and if that isn't enough let's define more specific errors
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[13:55:18] <tale > ^ +1
[13:55:41] <Glenn Deen> @Tommy Jensen - often court orders want a message displayed to the visitor.
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[13:55:52] <Warren Kumari> @Tommy: yes, hence the "talk to apps and browsers and similar to figure out how to determine what can / should be communicated"
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[13:56:44] <andrew_campling> @Warren - this might apply in  non-browser and non-web situations too
[13:56:48] <Dan York> Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-dnsop-sessb-464xlatnat64-optimization-00
[13:56:55] <Chris Box> @Tommy: yes defining more fine grained error codes would help
[13:56:55] <Warren Kumari> Yes.
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[13:57:00] <Tommy Jensen> @glenn - do court orders specify content per domain, or are there general messages we can map to specific errors ahead of time?
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[13:57:09] <Benjamin Schwartz> We already have quite fine-grained error codes with EDE
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[13:57:13] <Joey Salazar> @TrentA good point
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[13:57:22] <sftcd> wrt earlier dnssec/gost discussion https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/#dnssec has some numbers that don't seem to include any gost zones but I may be misreading
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[13:57:29] <Peter van Dijk> general messages do not solve the problem of telling the user what to do to make this specific block go away
[13:57:30] <Jordi Palet Martinez> tks @Dan
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[13:57:44] <Mallory Knodel> @glenn an example would be helpful. often it's a court order directed at a website host that would be so specific.
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[13:57:59] <Chris Box> @Peter can we define a separate way of communicating the route of appeal?
[13:58:02] <Daniel Gillmor> also: just because a court asks for something doesn't mean it's necessarily possible.
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[13:58:06] <andrew_campling> @Tommy J - given the huge volume of juridictions and multiplicity of languages, are customised messages practical?
[13:58:08] <Mallory Knodel> +1 dkg
[13:58:11] <Vittorio Bertola> @Tommy: example from Italy https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eWjM6fsGom0/WsdKpxCYbMI/AAAAAAAAwWQ/nuD0n8tBztA-IbnGqHUBCho9ddrbLGLpQCLcBGAs/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2018-04-06%2Bat%2B12.22.59.jpg
[13:58:11] <Tommy Jensen> @ben - agreed. I think the current error list makes sense, just saying if others disagree we should address that by adding errors with documented meaning rather than allow arbitrary content injection
[13:58:15] <Viktor Dukhovni> FYI: I'm now tracking over 12 million DNSSEC signed domains, adoption is growing more rapidly lately.
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[13:58:34] <Paul Hoffman> Or maybe have an interim?
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[13:58:43] <Viktor Dukhovni> https://stats.dnssec-tools.org/#parameter
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[13:58:53] <Peter van Dijk> Chris, my imagination is not stretching beyond DHCP for that, which is a bad choice
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[13:59:01] <Daniel Gillmor> Tommy: that's what i mean by an evolving tightly-constrained language
[13:59:02] <Joey Salazar> +1 to interim
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[13:59:05] <Suzanne> thanks everybody!!
[13:59:05] <Jonathan Reed> +1 to Paul and Tommy
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