IETF
dnsop
dnsop@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 18, 2018< ^ >
Joe Abley has set the subject to: IETF 101 DNSOP
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
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[13:22:20] danyork joins the room
[13:22:27] danyork has set the subject to: IETF 102 DNSOP
[13:22:38] <danyork> Morning, all... I'll be the scribe for today
[13:23:00] Petr Spacek joins the room
[13:24:36] Suzanne (co-chair) joins the room
[13:25:05] <Suzanne (co-chair)> welcome to DNSOP at IETF 102. We'll be getting started shortly.
[13:25:09] Jan Komissar joins the room
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[13:25:38] <Suzanne (co-chair)> introducing Dan York, your jabber scribe for the festivities today….
[13:27:17] Petr Spacek leaves the room
[13:27:20] <fanf> (everyone sounds like daleks on meetecho)
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[13:27:29] Petr Spacek joins the room
[13:27:38] <Meetecho> Audio is always louder before the session starts
[13:27:40] <Suzanne (co-chair)> it's entirely possible that's because we *are* daleks….
[13:27:50] Edward Lewis joins the room
[13:27:51] <Meetecho> As soon chairs start talking audio will autoadapt
[13:27:59] <Suzanne (co-chair)> oh cool, thanks @meetecho
[13:28:01] <Spamvictim> that would be consistent with the noise in the room
[13:28:09] MarcoSIDN@macbookair joins the room
[13:28:11] <Suzanne (co-chair)> wasn't sure that's how it works, now I know
[13:28:16] Matt Larson joins the room
[13:28:32] <danyork> Agenda - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-dnsop-03
[13:29:19] Bernie Volz joins the room
[13:29:26] Andrew Gallant joins the room
[13:30:01] <danyork> Materials - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/#dnsop
[13:30:16] David Millman joins the room
[13:30:30] <danyork> IF ANYONE *REMOTE* NEEDS ANYTHING SAID AT THE MIC, please put "MIC:" at the beginning of your question.
[13:30:45] <danyork> (Anyone in the room can go up to the mic all on your own, please! ;-) )
[13:31:29] <Matt Larson> Audio a bit fuzzy
[13:31:38] Francis Dupont joins the room
[13:31:52] koji joins the room
[13:31:59] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @meetecho, remote says "Audio a bit fuzzy"
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[13:32:05] Scott Rose joins the room
[13:32:19] <Suzanne (co-chair)> All: the meetecho folks monitor this room, calling out @meetecho makes it easier for them.
[13:32:42] Yaakov Stein joins the room
[13:32:44] <Edward Lewis> Meetecho chopped up the name of the new chair...
[13:32:50] <Meetecho> Suzanne (co-chair): unortunately Laurier has been giving us quite some headache all week, it should improve over time, if not we'll chime in
[13:32:59] <Suzanne (co-chair)> thanks
[13:33:14] <Matt Larson> @Ed: Benno
[13:33:32] <fanf> i can understand it though it sounds like tim might go on a rampage trying to destroy the galaxy
[13:33:46] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[13:33:57] Stephanie Huguenin joins the room
[13:34:00] <Suzanne (co-chair)> I can neither confirm nor deny….
[13:34:30] Richard Franks joins the room
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[13:34:48] <Daniel Kaiser> For me the audio is also fuzzy
[13:34:57] <danyork> @Ed - well, if you could see Tim, he's rocking the mad scientist look right now
[13:35:01] Yaakov Stein leaves the room
[13:35:13] <danyork> @meetecho - audio is fuzzy in Laurier
[13:35:34] <Meetecho> danyork: we know, I was saying Suzanne before that this room has been problematic all week
[13:35:40] <Meetecho> We're working on that
[13:35:45] 99rst joins the room
[13:35:45] <danyork> @meetecho - ah, I see that now
[13:35:51] <Peter DeVries> I sent a yes message on that yesterday
[13:36:02] <danyork> Tim is talking about these slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-chair-slides-01
[13:36:10] <Peter DeVries> I did not see it pop on the list but we've read it and agree it should go forward (dns-capture-format)
[13:36:30] Eric Osterweil joins the room
[13:36:41] <danyork> Mike St. John at mic
[13:36:50] <danyork> Wes Hardaker at mic
[13:36:54] <Suzanne (co-chair)> The meeting materials are all linked from the list of WGs at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials
[13:38:01] <Michal Kepien> oh, this sounds better!
[13:38:06] <Peter van Dijk> audio improved considerably just now
[13:38:07] Petr Spacek leaves the room
[13:38:12] <Peter DeVries> same
[13:38:14] <Peter van Dijk> this is not the first session that has done that around 10 minutes in, this week
[13:38:14] <Jerry Lundström> @meetecho wow something happened!
[13:38:23] <Richard Franks> Thanks for fixing audio
[13:38:24] <Jerry Lundström> (Y)
[13:38:29] <danyork> Warren Kumari at mic
[13:38:29] <Michal Kepien> yeah, thanks!
[13:38:48] <Meetecho> Glad to be of help, and sorry about the issues! As I was saying, this room has become our ongoing battle :)
[13:38:54] <fanf> yep, thanks!
[13:39:17] <danyork> FYI, for those of us in the room, Tim's mic seemed a bit muddier than the other mics
[13:39:41] <danyork> Mike St. John at the mic
[13:40:38] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[13:40:42] Gavin Brown joins the room
[13:41:11] Jaromir Talir joins the room
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[13:42:30] Richard Franks leaves the room
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[13:42:46] koji joins the room
[13:42:47] <Francis Dupont> About draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc2845bis the comments including a few open questions are in the xml version.
[13:43:04] <Francis Dupont> Of course xml2rfc removed them from the txt one.
[13:43:59] Wilhelm Wilhelm joins the room
[13:44:21] <danyork> Ondrej Sury now up talking about his draft with Paul Wouters - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-algorithm-update-00
[13:47:02] fenton joins the room
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[13:48:32] <danyork> John Levine at mic
[13:48:37] <danyork> Mark Andrews at mic
[13:49:05] Benno Overeinder leaves the room
[13:49:47] <danyork> Geoff Huston at mic
[13:50:16] Sue Graves joins the room
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[13:51:35] fenton leaves the room
[13:52:04] fenton joins the room
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[13:52:20] <danyork> Olaf Kolkman at mic
[13:52:34] liman joins the room
[13:53:02] <liman> May I recommend that you should not … ;-)
[13:53:08] <danyork> Paul Wouters at mic
[13:53:09] <fanf> RFC 6919 “REALLY SHOULD NOT”
[13:53:52] <danyork> Jim Fenton at mic
[13:54:03] Weiler joins the room
[13:54:26] <Weiler> where is dnsop-badattitude?  we need one today.
[13:54:44] Benno Overeinder leaves the room
[13:54:55] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[13:55:18] <danyork> :-)
[13:56:03] Melinda joins the room
[13:56:38] <danyork> Warren Kumari at mic
[13:56:42] <danyork> David Lawrence at mic
[13:57:25] Philip Homburg joins the room
[13:57:46] Gavin Brown leaves the room
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[13:59:01] <danyork> Time for cookies!
[13:59:03] <danyork> Slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-multi-vendor-dns-cookies-00
[13:59:18] <danyork> Willem Toorop presenting
[14:02:47] <danyork> Now Ondrej Sury presenting again
[14:07:25] <danyork> Ah, people on Twitter have helpfully pointed out that we should have brought RFC 6919 into our MUST/SHOULD/RECOMMENDED discussion - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919
[14:07:39] <danyork> Paul Hoffman at mic
[14:08:23] <danyork> Francis Dupont at mic
[14:09:22] <danyork> Donald Eastlake at mic
[14:10:44] <danyork> John Reed at mic
[14:11:28] Moritz Mueller joins the room
[14:12:41] Vanessa Issah leaves the room
[14:13:51] <danyork> (me) at mic
[14:13:59] <danyork> Olafur at mic
[14:14:02] <Peter van Dijk> Olafur at mic, obviously ;)
[14:14:26] slm joins the room
[14:15:21] <fanf> answer to olafur is cookies use less state than tcp
[14:15:41] <danyork> Paul Wouters at mic
[14:15:48] <danyork> @fanf - do you want that relayed?
[14:15:50] Sean Baseri joins the room
[14:16:00] <danyork> ? at mic
[14:16:17] <danyork> (Can someone see the name of the person at the mic? It's the other side of the room from me.)
[14:16:35] <Benno Overeinder> Tariq Saraj
[14:16:36] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Tariq Siraj
[14:16:43] <danyork> Thank you!
[14:16:45] Sandra Murphy joins the room
[14:17:15] <danyork> Lorenzo Colitti at mic
[14:17:29] <danyork> Ted Lemon at mic
[14:17:36] <fanf> no need to relay my comment :-) (I’ll say MIC if I think it’s important)
[14:17:55] <danyork> @fanf - thanks!
[14:19:28] <danyork> Ray Bellis at mic
[14:20:35] <danyork> Mark Andrews at mic
[14:20:39] <danyork> Ted Lemon at mic
[14:21:47] Amankin leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:22:12] <danyork> "If we want to kill the cookies, let's kill the cookies. If not, let's improve them." - great quotes from DNSOP
[14:22:17] <danyork> Warren Kumari at mic
[14:22:41] <Peter van Dijk> "Because we are very good at removing stuff from DNS" ahaha
[14:22:53] <danyork> Jan <> at mic
[14:23:26] <Peter van Dijk> Jan Včelák
[14:23:26] <Tobias Fiebig (TU Delft)> Peter van Dijk: I am somewhat a fan of removing UDP
[14:23:39] <Peter van Dijk> hey Tobias! you have my vote for that
[14:23:43] <danyork> Paul Wouters at mic
[14:24:13] <danyork> Olafur at mic
[14:24:51] vlevigneron joins the room
[14:24:54] <Eric Osterweil> IP spoofing is a routing problem, not an app problem.  Oveloading UDP-based DNS of flying to DONT is treating the symptoms, not the cold
[14:25:03] <danyork> Ben Schwartz at mic
[14:25:44] <danyork> So great... WE at the IETF say "kill the cookies" and say "kill DNS over UDP" ... and somehow mystically the rest of the world does this?
[14:25:48] <danyork> Willem at mic
[14:25:52] <danyork> David Lawrence at mic
[14:26:14] <Eric Osterweil> +1
[14:26:58] <slm> I did not hear David Lawrence say his name.  Did he and I did not hear it?
[14:27:29] <fanf> he said his nickname “tale” very quickly
[14:27:30] <slm> (are you reporting what they say or the people you know?)
[14:28:43] Magnus Frühling joins the room
[14:28:48] <danyork> slm: Yes, Dave said his nickname of "tale" which many people in the room know him by, but for the formal minutes I used his full name
[14:29:31] <slm> thanks.  as remote participant, not knowing the person, I wondered.
[14:29:44] <slm> btw.  who is presenting?
[14:29:50] <danyork> Tim
[14:29:56] <danyork> (chair)
[14:29:59] <Petr Špaček> Audio got worse again ...
[14:30:01] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @slm thanks for the reminder to be considerate of those who don't already know everyone
[14:30:05] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Tim Wicinski
[14:30:11] <danyork> Slides https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-somethingapex-00
[14:30:18] <slm> thnaks.
[14:30:20] <Petr Špaček> @meetecho Unfortunatelly the audio in dnsop is now harder to understand (again).
[14:31:17] <Meetecho> Looking into this
[14:31:19] <danyork> slm: I try to capture the names here of either: 1) people at the mic near me (there are two mics in the room); or 2) people at the other mic who I know.  So I do miss people who I don't know at the other mic, which is where others are helping fill in those names
[14:31:49] <danyork> @meetecho - the mic Tim is using in the front seems a bit muddy for those of us in the room.
[14:31:56] <danyork> Lars-Liman at mic
[14:31:59] <fanf> mic: this also needs to support alias + MX for subdomains not at apex
[14:32:21] <Meetecho> danyork: thx for the feedback, so that may be contributing in this case
[14:32:34] <Peter van Dijk> @fanf I always feel 'at apex' is confusing the issue which really is 'CNAME-and-other'
[14:32:50] <fanf> @habbie YES :-)
[14:33:04] <Peter van Dijk> @fanf as I'm sure I mentioned to you before, the biggest powerdns ALIAS deployment that I know of is not even on the apex
[14:33:16] <slm> thanks for pointer to slides.  agenda gives pointers, but useful to associate minutes to slides later.
[14:33:18] <danyork> Ray Bellis at mic
[14:33:20] <fanf> (cambridge is so old fashioned actually having a hierarchial namespace)
[14:33:35] <danyork> stephane at mic
[14:33:36] Scott Rose leaves the room
[14:34:54] <Meetecho> Is the audio better?
[14:34:56] <slm> to chair: in two previous meetings, either meetecho-chat and jabber were both failing or no jabber scribe was reporting questions to the mike. So this wg is doing great.
[14:35:28] Michael Defrees joins the room
[14:35:56] <Petr Špaček> @meetecho It sounds little bit better, definitelly understandable now. Thank you!
[14:36:10] <Meetecho> (y)
[14:36:22] <Petr Špaček> @meetecho Okay, now *this* mic is worse.
[14:36:40] <Petr Špaček> (Maybe Tim's?)
[14:36:41] <slm> have not had any trouble here.
[14:36:47] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @slm we love our remote participants, so thank you! props to Dan (scribe) and to the @meetecho folks for making it work.
[14:36:48] <Meetecho> Speaker's mic?
[14:36:53] <danyork> Lars-Liman at mic
[14:37:08] gianluca capitani joins the room
[14:37:14] <Meetecho> Or one of the mics in the lines?
[14:37:25] <danyork> Mark Andrews at mic
[14:38:13] <Jerry Lundström> bumfight! lol
[14:38:35] <Suzanne (co-chair)> *bun*fight.
[14:38:44] <danyork> Wes Hardaker at mic
[14:39:00] <Petr Špaček> @meetecho I believe it is chair's mic (Mic used by the speaker right before Wes - the guy now.)
[14:39:17] Eric Osterweil leaves the room
[14:39:20] <Meetecho> Got it, we'll ask the AV team to check later
[14:39:57] Bernie Volz leaves the room
[14:39:58] Bernie Volz joins the room
[14:41:15] <danyork> Joel Jaeggli at mic
[14:41:16] gianluca capitani leaves the room
[14:41:19] gianluca capitani joins the room
[14:42:07] <danyork> Roy Arends at mic
[14:42:32] gianluca capitani leaves the room
[14:42:56] <fanf> mic: my view of aname etc. is that RFC 973 fixed inconsistency bugs in CNAME in the wrong way (by making CNAME very awkward) so we need a better fix
[14:43:18] <danyork> @fanf - okay, will relay. 3 other people in front of me
[14:43:24] <fanf> tnx
[14:43:25] <danyork> (I'm already in line)
[14:44:04] <danyork> Jared Mauch at mic
[14:44:09] Benno Overeinder leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:44:56] Amankin joins the room
[14:45:13] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[14:45:20] <fanf> (muttering sotto voce “not all mail servers”)
[14:45:56] <danyork> :-)
[14:46:32] <fenton> Has anyone actually measured how much A records are used my mail servers in the absence of MX?
[14:46:47] <fenton> *by mail servers
[14:46:50] Melinda leaves the room
[14:46:55] Melinda joins the room
[14:47:24] <Spamvictim> @fenton a surprising amount in the long taim
[14:47:24] <Spamvictim> tail
[14:48:17] <fenton> @Spamvictim Thanks. As you say, surprising.
[14:49:04] Jiankang Yao joins the room
[14:49:06] Jean-Baptiste MILLOGO joins the room
[14:49:15] <Spamvictim> A while ago I proposed not falling back to AAAA, and the uniform response was it's too late
[14:49:44] <danyork> Murray Kucherawy at mic
[14:49:48] <danyork> Lars Liman at mic
[14:50:15] <fenton> Is there something somewhere that at least says A/AAAA fallback is depricated?
[14:50:17] Petr Špaček leaves the room
[14:50:28] Amankin leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:51:04] sara@sinodun.com leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[14:51:46] <danyork> Willem presenting
[14:52:08] <danyork> Slides - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-cnameapex-00
[14:52:35] <Weiler> that 'updates' header seems like is might be incomplete.
[14:52:44] Benno Overeinder leaves the room
[14:52:51] <Suzanne (co-chair)> we are now slightly out of order to the published agena, apologies for any confusion
[14:53:15] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[14:56:02] Moritz Mueller leaves the room
[14:56:49] <fanf> mic: BNAME is being resurrected from the dead ?!?! CNAME+DNAME is not a solution to the CNAME + other data problem
[14:57:13] <fanf> (what does n/a mean in ondrej’s slides?)
[14:57:27] <Peter van Dijk> powerdns recursor does not support qname minimisation
[14:57:39] <Peter van Dijk> and i bet neither do bind 9.12 and 9.11
[14:57:40] <Peter van Dijk> etc.
[14:58:09] <danyork> Paul Hoffman at mic
[14:58:15] <fanf> thanks :-)
[14:58:39] Weiler leaves the room
[15:00:04] <danyork> Ondrej Sury is currently in the middle of presenting these slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-cnamedname-experiment-01
[15:01:50] <danyork> John Levine at mic
[15:02:07] Jiankang Yao leaves the room
[15:02:45] Weiler joins the room
[15:04:14] <danyork> Ray Bellis at mic
[15:04:29] <danyork> Ben Schwartz at mic
[15:05:23] <danyork> Paul Hoffman at mic
[15:05:42] Jiankang Yao joins the room
[15:05:42] Magnus Frühling leaves the room
[15:06:40] Paul van Brouwershaven joins the room
[15:06:46] <danyork> Ray Bellis briefly spoke at mic
[15:06:58] <danyork> Shane Kerr at mic
[15:07:04] healthyao2000 joins the room
[15:08:02] <danyork> And now for something completely different...
[15:08:11] <danyork> Shumon Huque presenting https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-multi-provider-dnssec-00
[15:08:25] <danyork> Multi Provider DNSSEC
[15:10:25] Weiler leaves the room
[15:12:15] <danyork> Sara Dickinson at mic
[15:13:09] <danyork> good point from Sara
[15:15:21] <Suzanne (co-chair)> call for adoption of the multi-provider dnssec document is open on the mailing list, so feel free to comment there.
[15:15:40] <slm> missed the name - john woodworth? (bulk RR)
[15:16:33] <slm> ok, so speaker said "John" so question answered.
[15:16:42] Weiler joins the room
[15:17:07] Jaromir Talir leaves the room
[15:17:20] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @slm yes
[15:18:03] Dan York joins the room
[15:18:29] <Dan York> Sorry… my jabber client seems to have frozen
[15:18:40] <Dan York> Connected with a different one
[15:18:48] <Dan York> John Woodworth presenting https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-bulk-rr-00
[15:19:03] <slm> slm: hey, Dan, you type faser and more clearly than I can, so no complaints
[15:19:19] <Dan York> Various people have spoken - David Lawrence, Paul Wouters and more
[15:19:31] <Dan York> Warren Kumari (AD) at mic
[15:19:53] <Dan York> John Levine at mic
[15:20:44] <Peter van Dijk> MIC: various posts on dnsop have been asking 'what problem does this solve?'; no answers have come forth. What does this solve?
[15:21:06] <fanf> mic: i think IPv6 place-holder reverse dns can be done adequately with a wildcard PTR, and there’s no need to replace $GENERATE for IPv4
[15:21:31] <Dan York> Roy Bellis next at mic
[15:21:46] <Dan York> Peter and Tony - I will relay after Ray
[15:21:54] <Peter van Dijk> thanks Dan
[15:23:30] Duane Wessels joins the room
[15:24:56] <Peter van Dijk> that's it - we don't need to fix/improve generate into bulk; we need to kill generate!
[15:25:07] <Peter van Dijk> thanks dan
[15:25:27] Olafur joins the room
[15:25:48] Paul van Brouwershaven leaves the room
[15:25:54] <Olafur> Can we solve BULK via a better ZONE transfer mechanism ?
[15:25:57] <Dan York> Mark Andrews at mic
[15:26:12] sara@sinodun.com leaves the room
[15:26:53] <fanf> (not for mic, 100mb isn’t a big zone, sheesh)
[15:27:05] <Olafur> The only only sane DNSSEC policy for BULK is online-signing
[15:27:25] Weiler leaves the room
[15:28:19] <Peter van Dijk> @meetecho audio just went into the gutter
[15:28:34] <Meetecho> Checking
[15:28:44] <Meetecho> (damned Laurier!)
[15:28:51] <Jerry Lundström> @habbie & @meetecho I think it may be people talking too close to the mick
[15:29:01] <Jerry Lundström> also
[15:29:03] <slm> not hearing audio problem here
[15:29:09] <Peter van Dijk> it was just mark andrews indeed
[15:29:19] <Peter van Dijk> he can be.. enthusiastically :)
[15:29:23] <Daniel Kaiser> ^^
[15:29:27] <Peter van Dijk> *enthusiastic
[15:29:29] <Meetecho> :)
[15:29:51] <slm> ok, so you are talking about the buzzing in Mark's voice?  
[15:30:13] <Peter van Dijk> @slm yes
[15:30:19] <slm> figure he's just uh projecting
[15:30:20] <Dan York> lorenzo Colitti at mic
[15:31:12] <Dan York> Dave Lawrence at mic
[15:31:18] <fanf> (who was it with the 900MB zone full of CNAMEs? i’m wondering if they could use DNAME instead)
[15:31:18] <Olafur> mic: I hope we do not add bulk to AXFR format ==> we need new zone transfer format for this
[15:31:23] Philip Homburg leaves the room
[15:31:34] <slm> ok, so heard a click - silence - buzz - resumption here
[15:31:40] <Peter van Dijk> @slm me too
[15:32:08] <Jerry Lundström> The probably "windows"'ed the cord
[15:32:13] <Jerry Lundström> they even
[15:32:26] <Dan York> ted lemon at mic
[15:32:31] <Dan York> Tobias Fiebig at mic
[15:33:59] Wilhelm Wilhelm leaves the room
[15:34:20] <Dan York> <me> at mic
[15:35:36] <Dan York> Paul Wouters presenting https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-dnsop-powerbind-00
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[15:37:28] <Dan York> Stuart Cheshire at mic
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[15:38:08] <Dan York> Mark Andrews at mic
[15:42:06] <Peter van Dijk> MIC: 'All parents above me cannot skip my delegation' should be observed validator behaviour -today- even without powerbind
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[15:42:29] <Dan York> George Michaelson at mic
[15:42:33] <Dan York> Peter - will relay
[15:42:35] <Peter van Dijk> ta
[15:44:49] <Dan York> Roy Arends at mic
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[15:47:00] <Dan York> Matt Poundsett at mic
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[15:48:02] <Dan York> Ben Schwartz at mic
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[15:48:36] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
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[15:49:34] <Dan York> Shumon Huque next at mic after Wes
[15:50:11] <Dan York> NOTE - I have to leave for another appointment… if someone else can please relay any questions in the final 10 mins, that would be great
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[15:50:57] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @dan thank you!
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[18:41:45] <ajs> I speculate that a client that turned this on and off would be fingerprintable
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[18:42:15] <ajs> oops wrong window :)
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