dnsop - Thursday, November 5, 2015

dnsop

dnsop@jabber.ietf.org

Thursday, November 5, 2015< ^ >

DanYork has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF93 - http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda

Room Configuration

Room Occupants

GMT+0
[00:00:05] Roger Carney joins the room
[00:00:05] jabley waves
[00:00:40] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> ANYYyYYYYYYYYY
[00:00:46] Mark Andrews joins the room
[00:02:10] Russ Mundy joins the room
[00:02:56] Matt Larson joins the room
[00:02:58] audio ok
[00:03:07] John Levine joins the room
[00:03:21] shane_kerr joins the room
[00:03:21] Melinda joins the room
[00:03:26] <shane_kerr> Hello all.
[00:03:33] <shane_kerr> My name is Shane and I'll be jabber scribe today.
[00:03:45] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters commenting now on the agenda bashing that just occurred.
[00:04:01] <shane_kerr> Suggests we de-prioritize 6761 discussion.
[00:04:06] <Russ Mundy> Shane - thanks for doing the jabber scribing
[00:04:22] <shane_kerr> No problem, happy to help!
[00:04:39] <shane_kerr> Also, if anyone remote wants anything said at the microphone I will be happy to convey it.
[00:04:44] Peter Koch joins the room
[00:04:54] <shane_kerr> Please let me know what name you'd like me to say at the microphone when you ask. :)
[00:05:05] <shane_kerr> Document status review now.
[00:05:21] wseltzer joins the room
[00:05:50] <shane_kerr> Epic number of documents that have passed working group last call.
[00:06:06] <shane_kerr> Warren Kumari at the microphone.
[00:06:19] Jinmei Tatuya joins the room
[00:06:23] Weiler joins the room
[00:06:25] bortzmeyer joins the room
[00:06:27] stephen joins the room
[00:06:48] wood joins the room
[00:07:03] <shane_kerr> Joel Jaeggli at the microphone.
[00:07:10] bortzmeyer has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF94 - http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda
[00:08:00] naptee joins the room
[00:08:16] <Matt Larson> I'm having trouble joining the Jabber room from a Jabber client. I'm typing this in the Meetecho chat: is that a mirror of the Jabber room?
[00:08:18] <shane_kerr> Lots of candidates for adoption.
[00:08:21] MIC: draft-andrew-dns-no-response issue?
[00:08:35] <Meetecho> Matt Larson: yes
[00:08:41] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Much work done, thanks everybody esp. authors, reviewers, WG secretary
[00:08:44] <shane_kerr> @Matt Larson - I'm in the Jabber room via a Jabber client and seeing you fine.
[00:08:50] Hugo Kobayashi joins the room
[00:08:53] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[00:08:56] <Matt Larson> Thanks
[00:09:15] Noguchi Shoji joins the room
[00:09:32] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[00:09:39] Lots of changes have been made
[00:09:43] please re-read
[00:09:54] <bortzmeyer> Matt Larson: it may depend on your XMPP account. I use the one at DNS-OARC and it works fine.
[00:10:18] joel jaeggli joins the room
[00:10:39] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Mark, then please go to the list and ask for reviews, happy to nudge people
[00:10:42] <shane_kerr> Roadblock avoidance issue blocking WGLC.
[00:11:02] <shane_kerr> @Mark - also, asking individuals works 100x better than a cry for "please somebody review". ;)
[00:11:08] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Shane +1
[00:11:34] <shane_kerr> Wes Hardaker at the microphone.
[00:11:49] Sebastian Castro joins the room
[00:12:17] <bortzmeyer> Positive hum for a WGLC now
[00:12:25] tjw.ietf leaves the room
[00:12:25] tjw.ietf joins the room
[00:12:25] tjw.ietf leaves the room
[00:12:33] shane_kerr has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF94 - http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda (can-DO for more than 15 years)
[00:13:31] <shane_kerr> Olafur Gundmunson presenting draft-jabley-dnsop-refuse-any remotely.
[00:13:34] <Matt Larson> Olafur, please try to synchronize your voice with the movement of your lips!
[00:13:42] <shane_kerr> Or vice versa. ;)
[00:13:51] OrangeMorishita joins the room
[00:13:58] <jabley> meetecho is working well enough I could probably have volunteered to scribe from here. next time!
[00:14:08] <Meetecho> :)
[00:14:13] <Suzanne (co-chair)> good to know @joe thanks @meetecho :)
[00:14:16] tjw.ietf joins the room
[00:14:19] Peter DeVries leaves the room
[00:14:40] Evan Hunt joins the room
[00:14:58] Francis Dupont joins the room
[00:15:02] Peter DeVries joins the room
[00:17:56] Witold Krecicki joins the room
[00:18:56] Willem Toorop joins the room
[00:19:12] paulwouters joins the room
[00:20:45] <shane_kerr> Olafur asking for next steps.
[00:21:01] <jabley> do I get to request that the jabber proxy in the room shoots olafur?
[00:21:15] <shane_kerr> Olafaur is not here, but you can ask.
[00:21:22] <shane_kerr> Olafur.
[00:21:24] <jabley> oh true, it would need to be a shot felt around the world
[00:21:29] <Olafur> YES
[00:21:38] <shane_kerr> Ed Lewis at the microphone.
[00:22:03] <shane_kerr> (A big proponent of preserving the excellent current behavior of ANY.) ;)
[00:22:39] <shane_kerr> Marcos Sanz at the microphone.
[00:22:48] <Matt Larson> hummmmm
[00:22:48] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> hummmmm
[00:22:48] <Evan Hunt> hummmmm
[00:22:49] shinji fukatsu joins the room
[00:22:50] <Russ Mundy> hummmmm
[00:23:17] David Lawrence joins the room
[00:23:33] <shane_kerr> You know you're at a technology conference when the chair says, "that actually worked!" with great surprise. ;)
[00:23:45] <bortzmeyer> "refuse ANY" adopted by the WG, it seems
[00:24:31] <shane_kerr> Suzanne talks to 6761 status.
[00:24:50] <David Lawrence> Refuse ANY probably needs a better short name.
[00:25:07] <David Lawrence> Mitigate ANY is not too catchy tho.
[00:25:33] <Andrew Sullivan> "break-any-die-die-die"?
[00:26:01] <David Lawrence> Andrew "Swedish Chef" Sullivan.
[00:26:01] <shane_kerr> Ralph Droms at microphone.
[00:26:32] <Suzanne (co-chair)> thanks for that earworm, guys
[00:26:43] shinji fukatsu leaves the room
[00:27:38] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> minuscale-any-respone ?
[00:28:05] <shane_kerr> "Min ANY" works.
[00:28:06] <jabley> you-want-the-any-you-cant-handle-the-any
[00:29:49] <shane_kerr> Joel Jaeggli at the microphone.
[00:30:28] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan at the microphone.
[00:30:28] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[00:31:14] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[00:31:28] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters at the microphone.
[00:31:49] <shane_kerr> Geoff Huston at the microphone.
[00:31:50] shinji fukatsu joins the room
[00:32:03] <wseltzer> I thought that was "confused" and "confused"
[00:32:30] MAP joins the room
[00:32:35] shinji fukatsu leaves the room
[00:32:46] <shane_kerr> Ralph Droms responds to Geoff's comments.
[00:33:00] <shane_kerr> And Suzanne Woolf also.
[00:33:07] <bortzmeyer> Until now, just "meta" discussions (processes...)
[00:33:33] <shane_kerr> I think we all eagerly await some discussion of the actual topic. ;)
[00:33:33] <tjw.ietf > @Olafur - you want to resubmit ietf-dnsop-any ?
[00:33:44] <jabley> tim, I am about to resubmit it
[00:34:31] <tjw.ietf > My feeling is we should be able to resolve the Ed Lewis issue and hit WGLC and be done before Christmas
[00:34:33] <paulwouters> we already spend 30 minutes on the meta discussion :P
[00:34:55] <shane_kerr> Warren Kumari at the microphone.
[00:35:01] <jabley> I think this conversation on 6761bis is precisely why suz is saying it might be problematic to dedicated dnsop f2f time on this work
[00:35:32] <tjw.ietf > I hope that is a reasonable time from for the ANY draft
[00:35:46] <jabley> tim: I agree
[00:35:56] <shane_kerr> Jari Arkko at the microphone.
[00:36:25] <shane_kerr> IETF Chair asks to discuss substance of the topic. ;)
[00:36:52] <shane_kerr> Warren Kumari is thankful. :)
[00:36:52] resnick joins the room
[00:37:08] <tjw.ietf > where is the IETF_MEME folks? they would go crazy here
[00:37:10] <shane_kerr> Peter Koch and Alain Durand presenting. Peter Koch on the microphone now.
[00:38:04] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @resnick— we're here to serve
[00:38:38] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dnsop-refuse-any-00.txt
[00:40:34] *.oz.au is a example of middle
[00:40:50] for ACSnet
[00:41:04] <jabley> surely *.oz.au is in the DNS, and doesn't need a namespace selector? probably I don't know enough about oz.au
[00:41:36] OrangeMorishita leaves the room
[00:41:38] OrangeMorishita joins the room
[00:41:49] it was *.oz.au MX relays on the Internet
[00:41:54] <jabley> ahh
[00:42:31] There was more detailed knowledge if you were on ACSnet
[00:42:45] <shane_kerr> Alain Durand now at the microphone.
[00:42:55] <shane_kerr> Taking over the presentation.
[00:43:41] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Again for the record: we're open to using any mechanism available to us in the IETF to do work that properly belongs in the WG and to make sure we hand off work that doesn't. That includes f2f time, interims, mailing list discussion, and anything else we can think of to make progress. We have the full support of our AD and the IESG, and we can ask for input anywhere we like, including the IAB and the liaison to ICANN.
[00:44:25] Stephen Morris leaves the room
[00:44:28] stephen leaves the room
[00:47:39] <resnick> Let’s do be careful to make both the mission and the membership of the design team public and posted to the WG list. https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/design-team.html
[00:47:56] <jabley> +1
[00:47:59] <tjw.ietf > @resnick +1
[00:48:20] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @resnick, it was, will be reposted afte the meeting
[00:48:31] <Suzanne (co-chair)> membership & mission
[00:48:32] <bortzmeyer> Indeed, ICANN processes are a model and we should imitate them.
[00:48:35] <resnick> Cool.
[00:48:56] <Suzanne (co-chair)> And I foresee adding people as we go, and will note that too
[00:48:57] <shane_kerr> @bortzmeyer: sorry my brain does not yet detect the irony bit... was it set on that transmission?
[00:49:07] <jabley> I was wondering that too :-)
[00:50:14] <Weiler> if it wasn't set, i'll be disappointed.
[00:50:47] <shane_kerr> (This slide has the 2nd time with http: with a single slash... http:/ ... causing my OCD to kick-in overtime.)
[00:50:57] RalphD joins the room
[00:51:20] <bortzmeyer> shane_kerr: because after // you need a domain name. Here, there is the selector.
[00:51:22] <jabley> it says http:/[selector]/ as a way of abbreviating "new URI scheme that includes the ability to specify a name resolution protocol"
[00:51:33] Mauricio Vergara joins the room
[00:51:49] <shane_kerr> Rush for the microphone.
[00:51:54] <shane_kerr> Fighting in the aisles.
[00:52:08] <shane_kerr> 6 or 7 people at the microphone line.
[00:52:09] <shane_kerr> :P
[00:52:11] <tjw.ietf > I love you all
[00:52:16] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters at the microphone.
[00:53:09] <shane_kerr> The slide in question has blue for the http://foo.onion part.
[00:53:12] Miki Takata joins the room
[00:53:24] <shane_kerr> Just like my comment above (depending on your client).
[00:53:39] <shane_kerr> Ed Lewis at the microphone.
[00:53:49] <shane_kerr> d) is "develop URI-based name scheme"
[00:54:06] <shane_kerr> (Ed mentions that in dnsop we don't have expertise for that.)
[00:54:06] <wseltzer> noo, please don't make me go to the mic to say something about URL
[00:54:21] <tjw.ietf > I agree with @wseltzer
[00:54:22] <Weiler> go for it!
[00:54:38] <shane_kerr> Stephane Bortzmeyer at the microphone, pushing us back to meta-discussion.
[00:54:40] <jabley> perhaps someone could make the point at the mic that the problem statement people could usefully comment on is the one in the draft, not simply the slideset that was presented. you know, if it seems necessary.
[00:54:40] <Olafur> When is time up on this ?
[00:54:49] <tjw.ietf > 15 minutes
[00:54:54] <tjw.ietf > please go get some coffee
[00:55:04] Willem Toorop leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[00:55:16] Mauricio Vergara leaves the room
[00:55:55] Mauricio Vergara joins the room
[00:56:04] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan at the microphone.
[00:56:36] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @jabley I think I did
[00:56:43] <jabley> thank you suz!
[00:57:06] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[00:57:50] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[00:58:16] <shane_kerr> The microphone queue seems to be growing. Looks like 8 people in the line now.
[00:58:21] <jabley> +8000 andrew
[00:58:46] <Olafur> *1000 Joe
[00:58:56] <shane_kerr> "Treading into the DNS". Makes it sound like DNS is... um... never mind.
[00:59:27] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[01:00:04] <shane_kerr> That was John Levine at the microphone.
[01:00:11] <shane_kerr> Warren Kumari at the microphone.
[01:00:31] <Andrew Sullivan> Also, I should have been super clear at the mic that I was speaking for myself and nobody else, so apologies for not having made that dislaimer
[01:00:33] <Andrew Sullivan> disclaimer
[01:00:52] <resnick> I like “dislaimer”.
[01:00:55] john joins the room
[01:01:20] <Andrew Sullivan> no, it was me speaking. There's no way I can be dislaimer. I'm always laimer.
[01:01:27] <shane_kerr> Doug Otis at the microphone.
[01:01:44] <shane_kerr> Ralph Droms wants to know the microphone length.
[01:01:53] <shane_kerr> Down to 3.
[01:01:58] <shane_kerr> Geoff Huston at the microphone.
[01:02:13] <jabley> "send text, geoff!"
[01:02:20] <shane_kerr> Um... queue at the microphone length. The microphones don't change length as far as I can tell.
[01:02:41] <Suzanne (co-chair)> (no hats) there's IAB business here too I think
[01:02:41] <Matt Larson> Andrew, I had assumed you were speaking for the IAB, ICANN CCWG, Dyn and every Canadian citizen. Thank you for the clarification.
[01:02:47] <resnick> @jabley: That’s not fair. The question was whether the design team had covered what it needed.
[01:02:57] <shane_kerr> Ralph Droms asks for clarification.
[01:03:12] <jabley> true, but I'd still love to have geoff's contributions for the analysis of any gap since 2860, since he was tehre
[01:03:16] <Suzanne (co-chair)> yes
[01:03:32] <jabley> I wasn't saying "don't complain, send text" I was actually asking for text
[01:03:40] <resnick> ack
[01:03:40] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @jabley yes
[01:05:26] <jabley> I think that's a great way of approaching the analysis
[01:05:38] <shane_kerr> Wendy Seltzer at the microphone.
[01:05:45] <shane_kerr> Representing something called the "application layer".
[01:05:56] <Suzanne (co-chair)> YAY Apps person!! :)
[01:06:01] <jabley> shane: it's how people read mail when they can't do it over port 53
[01:06:01] <resnick> High-altitude thin air where some of us live.
[01:06:19] <russ> @Geoff - Excellent +1
[01:06:31] MAP leaves the room
[01:06:34] <shane_kerr> She says "Don't make the URL spec more complicated".
[01:06:37] <shane_kerr> :P
[01:07:53] <shane_kerr> Stephane Bortzmeyer at the microphone.
[01:09:32] <wseltzer> I should have said "don't make the problems of getting to a URL spec more complicated" :P
[01:10:17] <jabley> I think that's a useful perspective. We certainly want a problem statement that doesn't ignore the realities of the application layer.
[01:10:43] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @wseltzer thanks
[01:11:07] <shane_kerr> Alain's question also makes me think that perhaps DNS folks really don't understand what "the application layer" is.
[01:11:24] <shane_kerr> (Put in quotes because I am a DNS person and also don't understand such things.) :)
[01:11:52] <shane_kerr> (Question about libraries vs. applications.)
[01:13:02] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan at the microphone.
[01:13:31] Duane Wessels joins the room
[01:15:06] Melinda leaves the room
[01:15:20] <bortzmeyer> It is the first time I see the IETF asking whether a feature should be in the applications or in the libraries. Not our business.
[01:16:36] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[01:16:41] <Weiler> are we still on-track for the agenda, or is moving this discussion earlier leading to other things falling off the end?
[01:16:50] <Weiler> (good timing, Suzanne)
[01:17:03] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[01:17:09] <Suzanne (co-chair)> We're almost on time
[01:17:23] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Deferring to AD though, can't really not :)
[01:17:30] James Gould joins the room
[01:17:47] <RalphD> We're trying very hard to keep it to 30 minutes. I appreciate the WGs indulgence to accommodate my schedule. This session just came up for me a couple of days ago, and I should be in another WG meeting for my day job.
[01:18:17] Melinda joins the room
[01:18:21] <shane_kerr> Joel Jaeggli (as AD) at the microphone.
[01:18:24] Issue ICANN doesn't have a process for non regular tld names which aren't to be served by the DNS
[01:18:51] <shane_kerr> ICANN develops more process by 10:00 than most groups will develop all year.
[01:19:02] <shane_kerr> Saying "ICANN doesn't have a process for X" is not really that useful. ;)
[01:19:14] yes but it it appropriately focused
[01:19:23] <shane_kerr> Jari Arkko at the microphone.
[01:19:47] <Andrew Sullivan> I don't think it helps us to complain about others' processes :)
[01:20:15] <shane_kerr> It might make us feel less bad about our own tangled mess? ?P
[01:20:16] <shane_kerr> :P
[01:20:16] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[01:20:29] ICANN please develop process for TLD requests that are not intended to be traditional registries
[01:20:33] <jabley> HI ANDREW
[01:20:43] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan presents ordered RRset draft written by Joe Abley.
[01:21:00] <shane_kerr> Lots of hands when Andrew asked who read it.
[01:21:02] <shane_kerr> I would say 20?
[01:21:14] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> +1
[01:22:06] MIC: additional has qualifiers for TSIG and SIG(0)
[01:22:32] <shane_kerr> Dave Lawrence at the microphone.
[01:22:53] <jabley> the draft could easily also say "except OPT, which must be first if present" :-)
[01:22:54] TSIG and SIG(0) are last
[01:23:08] James Gould leaves the room
[01:23:16] <shane_kerr> Shumon Huque at the microphone.
[01:23:19] <Suzanne (co-chair)> anyone to the MIC for Mark?
[01:23:26] names has always sent OPT towards the end
[01:23:41] James Gould joins the room
[01:24:03] <jabley> so, @suz, @tim, I think this discussion illustrates that we need the knowledge of the wg to converge on a clarification, if the wg thinks it's worth clarifying. I hope you were already going to ask for a hum for adoption, but that'd be another reason to.
[01:24:13] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @jabley we were
[01:24:16] <jabley> great
[01:24:18] <tjw.ietf > that was next
[01:25:37] Chain can add additional constraints above and beyond the basic constraints
[01:26:06] Yuji Sekiya joins the room
[01:26:40] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters at the microphone.
[01:27:00] bortzmeyer wonders how we could still find unpecified things in the DNS, 25 years after.
[01:27:00] RalphD leaves the room
[01:27:14] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @bortzmeyer not surprised at all :)
[01:27:15] RalphD joins the room
[01:27:22] <tjw.ietf > of course we can @ bortzmeyer - just look at TCP
[01:28:00] <shane_kerr> @bortzmeyer it's because people are putting stuff in databases now, which means they think in sets. *shudder*
[01:28:14] <Matt Larson> Let's clarify AXFR next
[01:28:28] <shane_kerr> Or maybe because Python added the set type? :P
[01:29:08] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Apparently Andrew is not Joe.
[01:29:08] RalphD leaves the room
[01:29:13] RalphD joins the room
[01:29:19] James Gould leaves the room
[01:29:29] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> Andrew throws Joe under the bus :-)
[01:29:48] <Matt Larson> hummmmm
[01:29:48] <shane_kerr> Tim calls for hum for adoption.
[01:29:58] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> hummmmm
[01:29:58] <shane_kerr> Very quiet hum for adoption.
[01:29:59] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> hummmmm
[01:30:01] <jabley> ok!
[01:30:02] James Gould joins the room
[01:30:02] "Copy to the answer"
[01:30:03] <shane_kerr> Very loud hum for rejection.
[01:30:28] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters presents "maintain DS" draft.
[01:30:39] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[01:31:03] _dns-update._udp.<parent> SRV
[01:31:09] + SIG(0)
[01:31:10] Frederico A C Neves leaves the room
[01:31:53] _dns-update._udp has already been allocated thanks to Apple and Dyn
[01:32:17] wood leaves the room
[01:33:30] <shane_kerr> Warren Kumari at the microphone.
[01:34:13] <shane_kerr> John Dickinson at the microphone.
[01:35:42] <jabley> I think john and paul need a relationship therapist
[01:35:57] James Staff joins the room
[01:36:06] MIC: Fix the RRR model
[01:36:06] <Jim Galvin> @mic This does not "fix" the problem in the gTLD case. You can not do TOFU. The data has to come from a registrar to get in the registry to get in the TLD's DNS infrastructure.
[01:36:16] <shane_kerr> John Levine at the microphone.
[01:36:16] wseltzer leaves the room
[01:36:17] wseltzer joins the room
[01:36:37] <David Lawrence> sorry think i forgot to name myself @ mic; that was my comment on RRR model and relying on customers
[01:37:01] <shane_kerr> Wes Hardaker at the microphone
[01:37:02] <bortzmeyer> Mark Andrews: I agree the RRR model is broken but, at least in France, it is in the law (which governs the management of .fr). Changing it is not an option :-(
[01:37:18] <David Lawrence> We never change laws?
[01:37:30] <bortzmeyer> David Lawrence: the IETF never does :-)
[01:37:31] <shane_kerr> @bortzmeyer - le grande partee IETF!
[01:37:59] <bortzmeyer> David Lawrence: I call my congressman, first thing tomorrow
[01:38:07] What? You can't add additional people that can update records if they are authenticated to do so?
[01:38:45] <bortzmeyer> Mark Andrews: I'm afraid that, legally, not.
[01:38:58] laws can always be changed
[01:39:07] <David Lawrence> I'm definitely curious to know more about this law.
[01:39:19] I also suspect this is a misinterpertations
[01:39:26] <Weiler> I understand the mic lines are closed, so I'll voice my disagreement here. I disagree with Wes. There are risks to leap of faith, but I think we're better off encouraging leap of faith than making it harder.
[01:40:08] Benno Overeinder joins the room
[01:40:27] Mankin, Allison joins the room
[01:40:35] <shane_kerr> Calling for a hum for adoption.
[01:40:36] <Russ Mundy> hummmmm
[01:40:37] <Matt Larson> hummmmm
[01:40:40] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> hummmmm
[01:40:41] <shane_kerr> Medium loud hum.
[01:40:45] <Petr Spacek> hummmmm
[01:40:45] <Jim Galvin> hummmmm
[01:40:47] <shane_kerr> Very quiet hum against.
[01:41:16] <shane_kerr> Mukund Sivaraman begins presentation from the middle of the room.
[01:41:20] Geoff Huston joins the room
[01:41:22] <shane_kerr> So he can look at the slides. :)
[01:41:36] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> What was the sense of the room on CDS ?
[01:41:51] <Weiler> adopt. some dissent.
[01:41:52] <jabley> sounded like a hum in favour of adoption
[01:41:52] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[01:41:56] <bortzmeyer> David Lawrence: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idSectionTA=LEGISCTA000006181974&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070987&dateTexte=20090514
[01:42:02] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[01:42:04] <Andrew Sullivan> Better than not
[01:42:07] <Mankin, Allison> I like the idea of presenting from where you can see the slides
[01:42:33] <Duane Wessels> I thought the pink box was a hard limit
[01:42:35] <shane_kerr> Since I'm up next, I am also strongly in favor. :-/
[01:42:42] <Andrew Sullivan> What, you don't totally memorize everything?
[01:42:56] <Andrew Sullivan> But yeah, this is hard on the remote participants, who won't be able to see you reliably
[01:43:07] <jabley> I can see him just fine
[01:43:11] <Matt Larson> The camera is aimed at the center of the room.
[01:43:24] <shane_kerr> "“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.” ― Mark Twain
[01:43:27] <Andrew Sullivan> Well, "hard" if you assume seeing people is good and that people are not good and standing still
[01:43:31] <shane_kerr> So yeah, I probably need those slides. ;)
[01:43:40] <Suzanne (co-chair)> interesting, there's a sign on the desk that says remote works best if the speaker stays in the box
[01:43:44] <jabley> also, I have read this draft, I like it, we should adopt it, I will review it, now I'm stepping away for five minutes. Please hum on my behalf as necessary. :-)
[01:43:47] <russ> the meetecho folk are doing an excellent job with moving the cameras to the spearkers
[01:43:48] <Andrew Sullivan> the point of the pink box is to keep the camera on the humans
[01:44:03] <shane_kerr> @jabley: how many dB should I use for your hum?
[01:44:06] <Andrew Sullivan> maybe people move around less with the floor mic because of the aisle
[01:45:29] <paulwouters> Weiler: wes has a good point. it is additional trust that is not always clear that it came in via a "weak link"
[01:46:39] <shane_kerr> @paulwouters: we don't have a lot of ways to indicate "trustworthiness" in DNS, right?
[01:46:40] wood joins the room
[01:47:01] <David Lawrence> youcantrustme.example.com TXT "really. i mean it."
[01:47:03] <shane_kerr> It ain't PGP (which probably has too many ways).
[01:47:34] <paulwouters> shane_kerr: depends, did you trust pgp via openpgpkey? :)
[01:47:42] wood leaves the room
[01:47:45] <shane_kerr> :)
[01:48:00] <shane_kerr> Q.E.D.
[01:48:17] Duane Wessels leaves the room
[01:50:18] <shane_kerr> Lots of hands have read the draft.
[01:50:33] <shane_kerr> Ray Arens at the microphone.
[01:50:49] this slide is load signed load balancing
[01:51:33] <Suzanne (co-chair)> I don't like asking people to stop— apologies Mukund
[01:51:58] <shane_kerr> Seems there needs to be some detailed discussion of this draft.
[01:52:06] <shane_kerr> Stephane Bortzmeyer at the microphone.
[01:52:06] MIC: the client learns what servers support the option. Cookies also do this.
[01:52:14] <jabley> to paraphrase vixie's response to this on the list, "it never turns out to be a bad idea to add another checksum"
[01:52:32] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> TSIG can do this as well
[01:52:41] <shane_kerr> Suzanne - is there time for Marks' comment?
[01:53:04] <shane_kerr> Wes Hardaker at the microphone.
[01:53:16] <shane_kerr> Mark: sorry there is no time for your comment at the microphone.
[01:53:19] <tjw.ietf > @shane_kerr we can state that when we hum here shortly
[01:54:19] Mankin, Allison leaves the room
[01:54:43] <shane_kerr> Peter Koch at the microphone.
[01:55:06] TSIG has lots of key distribution issues.
[01:55:45] DNSSEC is not enough.
[01:55:58] <jabley> if TSIG was usable like this on a wide scale, it would be used. It's not.
[01:56:19] referrals are not signed.
[01:56:25] This is cheap.
[01:56:51] hummmmm
[01:56:51] <jabley> Hummmm
[01:57:03] <shane_kerr> Calling for hums now.
[01:57:08] <Russ Mundy> hummmmm
[01:57:15] <Petr Spacek> hummmmm against
[01:57:18] <shane_kerr> I cannot interpret the hums.
[01:57:28] <each> yeah the jabber hum protocol is a little problematic
[01:57:31] <resnick> Good answer.
[01:57:33] <shane_kerr> Decision will be made on list apparently.
[01:58:19] worst comes to worst we can just implement in named and publish a informational via ISE
[01:58:54] Tomoharu Sato joins the room
[01:59:21] <paulwouters> A creative common license?
[01:59:28] <paulwouters> does that override the note well ?
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[02:00:29] <bortzmeyer> "RR boundaries"? Not RRset?
[02:01:03] note well does not prevent publishing by the author by other paths.
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[02:01:16] Matt Larson leaves the room
[02:01:32] <jabley> I haven't read this draft. It seems reasonable that you *could* do this on an RR boundary, but agreed RRSet sounds more robust.
[02:01:38] <paulwouters> Mark Andrews: sure, but it is on the slide at the presentation?
[02:01:56] Matt Larson joins the room
[02:02:01] <paulwouters> Mark Andrews: what if it had said "no commercial share alike" :P
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[02:03:24] <bortzmeyer> jabley: Shane just described it as "open issue" ("RRset splitting")
[02:03:31] <jabley> yep, heard that
[02:04:00] <jabley> not if you return an HINFO in response to the ANY query!
[02:05:32] <shane_kerr> Duane Wessels presenting now.
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[02:07:31] <shane_kerr> Perhaps we should have proposed encapsulating answers in HINFO RDATA rather than using EDNS0?
[02:07:40] <shane_kerr> :P
[02:07:43] <Andrew Sullivan> everyone's a comedian
[02:07:46] <jabley> only if we can fragment them
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[02:08:35] MIC: send multiple per set seen and don't merge
[02:08:57] <Matt Larson> I need to step away but strongly support WG adoption if I miss the hum.
[02:09:45] <jabley> you could also send it for a while triggered by an observed trust anchor change
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[02:10:29] MIC: also need time windows to be defined
[02:10:30] <Matt Larson> @jabley: But one use case is wanting to know trust anchor usage ahead of such a trust anchor change
[02:10:50] jabley puts his hand up
[02:10:50] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> +1
[02:10:54] <shane_kerr> Like 30 hands read.
[02:11:22] <each> MIC: if the goal here is strictly to provide telemetry about 5011 rollover progress then there's a simpler approach in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-trust-management-01 (of which I am coauthor). if the goal is broader than that, I'm not sure what the additional goals might be?
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[02:11:53] <Peter Koch> marka: what time windows?
[02:12:06] <muks> suzworldwide: no worries.. i understand and should have removed some slides, but i couldn't as i wanted to get through the reasons for checksums :)
[02:12:22] <shane_kerr> Ondrej Sury
[02:12:27] <shane_kerr> at microphone
[02:12:29] To get counts you need time windows for how long to hold learnt data.
[02:12:42] and it needs to be the same by all implementations
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[02:13:16] <shane_kerr> Mic line is now closed, but I will try to bring your clarification, Mark.
[02:13:19] suggestion 24 hours
[02:13:39] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters at the mic.
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[02:15:05] <shane_kerr> George Michaelson at the microphone.
[02:15:06] Rik Ribbers joins the room
[02:15:53] <shane_kerr> Ed Lewis at the microphone.
[02:16:40] <shane_kerr> Paul Hoffman at the microphone.
[02:17:04] <Joe Abley> hummmmm
[02:17:05] <Joe Abley> hummmmm
[02:17:07] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> hummmmm
[02:17:09] hummmmm
[02:17:12] <shane_kerr> Moderately loud hum for adoptioon.
[02:17:17] <shane_kerr> Silence against adoption.
[02:17:52] <shane_kerr> Stephane Bortzmeyer presenting two wild ideas that he had.
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[02:20:33] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> Mic: Start writing
[02:20:47] <shane_kerr> Peter Koch at the microphone.
[02:22:02] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan says "this is toxic".
[02:22:05] You run your own as112 instance
[02:22:20] <shane_kerr> Stephane proceeds to 2nd topic, more important.
[02:22:43] <Suzanne (co-chair)> My experience as a root server operator suggests the root server operators do not care about spurious traffic.
[02:22:45] We clarified this years ago.
[02:23:11] <joel jaeggli> garbage in
[02:23:22] yes there are broken servers w.r.t. ENT. Tough
[02:23:57] they need to be purged from the ecosystem
[02:24:01] <David Lawrence> Being worked on, though. At least the major ones (Akamai being a known offender)
[02:24:04] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> Harmless to publish
[02:24:28] Weiler joins the room
[02:24:31] <Suzanne (co-chair)> @mark, and of course the level of success in the IETF for policing the internet has been notable to daye
[02:24:34] <shane_kerr> Are you all talking about Stephane's DNAME at root idea or NXDOMAIN means NXDOMAIN?
[02:24:46] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> NXDOMAIN
[02:24:49] <David Lawrence> NXDOMAIN
[02:24:51] <shane_kerr> Right. :)
[02:24:57] <Weiler> how is this different from fujiwara-san's aggressive neg caching draft?
[02:25:13] <shane_kerr> @Weiler - that was discussed on list.
[02:25:15] <Duane Wessels> Fujiwara's relies on DNSSEC?
[02:25:20] <shane_kerr> Short answer: this works without DNSSEC.
[02:25:20] <shane_kerr> :)
[02:25:27] <Weiler> shane: thanks. :-)
[02:25:43] <shane_kerr> Also, this is about entire delegations, and not names within a delegation.
[02:25:50] <shane_kerr> Paul Wouters at the microphone, BTW.
[02:26:02] NXDOMAIN != SERVFAIL
[02:26:12] <shane_kerr> Ed Lewis at the microphone.
[02:26:25] Matt Larson leaves the room
[02:26:50] I didn't put in a emoticon.
[02:26:51] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan at the microphone.
[02:27:06] <shane_kerr> John Levine at the microphone.
[02:27:44] <Suzanne (co-chair)> That's Shumon Huque speaking
[02:27:52] <shane_kerr> Shumon Hurque at the microphone.
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[02:28:48] and fear of bad implementations
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[02:29:43] <resnick> Sorry, for the uneducated among us: What is “ENT”?
[02:29:55] <jabley> empty non-terminal
[02:29:56] <shane_kerr> Giovane Moura at the microphone.
[02:29:56] <Olafur Gudmudnsson> Empty Non-Terminal
[02:30:01] <resnick> ack. thx
[02:30:04] <shane_kerr> Ancient tree folk!
[02:30:27] Peter Koch leaves the room
[02:30:37] <resnick> (Looking up “ent dns” in google gets you information about “deviated nasal septum” and “ear nose & throat”.)
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[02:30:47] <shane_kerr> Meeting is over.
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[02:30:49] <shane_kerr> Bye!
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[02:30:54] <jabley> bye!
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