IETF
dnsop
dnsop@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 20, 2015< ^ >
Jared Mauch has set the subject to: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda
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[13:10:59] DanYork has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF93 - http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda
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[13:25:18] <DanYork> Good afternoon.
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[13:25:25] <DanYork> I'll be jabber scribing if anyone needs relay
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[13:25:49] <Ted Lemon> Hey, Dan!
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[13:26:02] <Ted Lemon> Meetecho seems to be working well today.
[13:26:04] <DanYork> Hey Ted!
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[13:26:16] <DanYork> Greetings, neighbor! :-)
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[13:27:56] <Ted Lemon> Was he just talking about cookies?
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[13:28:12] <DanYork> He was... and I was getting hungry.  Cookie break is AFTER this one. ;-)
[13:28:19] <Ted Lemon> :)
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[13:34:18] <DanYork> Who is the second/backup jabber scribe?
[13:34:23] <Ted Lemon> So is there any indication in the room that I raised my hand?
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[13:34:26] <DanYork> Suzanne said someone would help
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[13:35:04] <Suzanne (co-chair)> OUr scribes are Paul Hoffman and Dan York
[13:35:17] <DanYork> Ah, thanks.
[13:35:22] DanYork waves over at Paul
[13:35:26] <Ted Lemon> Yes?   No?   Nobody cares?
[13:35:36] <DanYork> Ted - no indication in the jabber chat
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[13:35:53] <DanYork> This is Sara Dickinson presenting
[13:35:56] <Ted Lemon> There wouldn't be.   I'm on meetecho.   There's an option to raise your hand and speak.
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[13:36:15] <Ted Lemon> The question is whether there's anything evidence of that UI on the other end of the connection. :)
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[13:36:34] <tjw.ietf > there does not seem to be ted.
[13:36:39] <Suzanne (co-chair)> Ted, no there is not, sorry.
[13:36:40] <tjw.ietf > but then again - i'm not sure
[13:36:50] <tjw.ietf > i assume we need to run it
[13:36:55] <Ted Lemon> That's too bad.
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[13:37:06] <tjw.ietf > yes,
[13:37:09] <Ted Lemon> Jabber scribe comments suffer from the telephone game problem.
[13:37:17] <DanYork> yes
[13:37:31] <DanYork> Glad to relay, Ted, whenever you want
[13:37:41] <Ted Lemon> I tried to comment in 6man earlier and what I said got sufficiently garbled that the chairs didn't understand what I was asking.
[13:37:43] <Ted Lemon> Thanks, Dan.
[13:38:20] <DanYork> Please preface with "MIC:" and I'll relay.  I'm sitting next to a mic
[13:38:26] <Ted Lemon> k
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[13:44:38] <DanYork> Bernie Voltz at mic
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[13:46:02] <John Levine> ??? the server can't see the keepalive request until it gets the query
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[13:46:37] <DanYork> Geoff Huston at mic
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[13:46:56] <RussMundy> can't hear Geoff remotely
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[13:47:05] <RussMundy> please speak up
[13:47:14] <DanYork> russ - Hmm
[13:47:29] <Russ Mundy> hummmmm
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[13:48:20] <tjw.ietf > is that better?
[13:48:25] <DanYork> Just talked to audio guy
[13:48:26] <Weiler> is Geoff calling out football plays?
[13:48:28] <DanYork> is that better
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[13:48:31] <DanYork> ?
[13:48:34] <DanYork> Ray Bellis at mic
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[13:48:51] <Hosnieh Rafiee> sorry I am late, can anyone say which draft is discussed.. I am not be able to use meetecho to see
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[13:49:04] <tjw.ietf > 5966-bis
[13:49:06] <DanYork> draft-ietf-dnsop-5966bis
[13:49:26] <RussMundy> Geoff audio much better now
[13:49:30] <Hosnieh Rafiee> thanks Dan
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[13:51:03] <Russ Mundy> thanks for the audio fix - much better now
[13:51:55] <DanYork> Now on draft-ietf-dnsop-edns-tcp-keepalive
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[13:53:39] <DanYork> Slides at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dnsop-1.pdf
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[13:57:05] <DanYork> Ray Bellis at mic
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[13:57:22] <Ted Lemon> MIC: do we have any data to suggest contexts in which long-lived connections may be practical?
[13:57:32] <DanYork> will relay
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[13:57:36] <Ted Lemon> thanks!
[13:58:17] <DanYork> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[13:58:43] <DanYork> (I'm next)
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[13:59:23] <Ted Lemon> Hm, slight rephrase: do we have any data to suggest in which contexts long-lived connections may be practical?
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[13:59:30] <DanYork> k
[14:00:00] <paulwouters> ted: i greatly want them in my unbound on laptop that has hotel port 53 and i do tcp or tls fallback :)
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[14:00:19] <paulwouters> (and for query-chain it is very nice too :)
[14:00:21] <Ted Lemon> Yes, I can see why stub resolvers could benefit from this. :)
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[14:00:38] <Ted Lemon> The question is whether caching resolvers can actually handle it, and if so, what that looks like.
[14:00:44] <paulwouters> i dont see as much use for auth servers. unless you want like to keep open tcp to a .com server
[14:00:50] <paulwouters> where you have a lot of usage.
[14:01:09] <paulwouters> ted: resolvers scale really well if needed?
[14:01:22] <habbie@gmail.com> google public dns is rumoured to do such things (keep open tcp to auths)
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[14:02:38] <paulwouters> ted: also dns-over-tor
[14:02:58] <Ted Lemon> If a million clients have connections open, what happens?
[14:03:20] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Much hilarity?
[14:03:23] <DanYork> :-)
[14:03:28] <Ted Lemon> Exactly.
[14:03:39] <paulwouters> google makes more money?
[14:03:59] <ajsaf@jabber.org> But that's the same sort of problem that http servers have had forever
[14:04:22] <Ted Lemon> Different incentives.
[14:04:30] <Ted Lemon> That's why I asked if we had data.
[14:04:39] <Ted Lemon> We can speculate about it until we are blue in the face.
[14:04:59] <DanYork> That was Joe Abley before
[14:05:01] <Ted Lemon> HTTP connections typically provide more reward for the provider than DNS connections, per connection.
[14:05:07] <DanYork> This is John Dickinson at the mic
[14:05:23] <DanYork> David Lawrence at mic
[14:05:35] <Olafur Gudmundsson> Ted large fraction of queries comes from Resolver farms like Google, OpenDNS, ISP's and Auth servers would like to get those over multipleded TCP connections for multiple reasons, DDoS is the biggest one
[14:06:01] <Ted Lemon> Yeah, that makes sense, and is a better solution than cookies.
[14:06:10] <DanYork> Linus Nordberg at mic
[14:06:13] <Ted Lemon> I don't think there's a problem with that application.
[14:06:19] <Ted Lemon> Hence the question "in which cases...?"
[14:06:21] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I agree with Joe, BTW, that the current approach is easier to understand & see how it'd work
[14:06:29] <DanYork> Linus mentions "DNSSEC over Tor" as a use case
[14:06:50] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I was just trying to give the background as to what some of us thought the old approach (session length rather than timeout) was going to yield
[14:06:52] <paulwouters> although he really means dns over tor :)
[14:06:53] <DanYork> (Sara would like feedback and reviews)
[14:07:11] <paulwouters> you dont want a tor circuit for each tcp connection
[14:07:12] <Ted Lemon> How does DNSSEC over TOR make sense?
[14:07:25] <Ted Lemon> TOR obscures addresses.
[14:07:26] <paulwouters> it is expensive to setup a tor tcp connection
[14:07:29] <paulwouters> and tor doe snot do udp
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[14:07:47] <DanYork> (Please send email to Paul if you are willing to review.)
[14:07:50] <paulwouters> so to get anonymous/encrypted dns using tor, you want 1 persistent TCP connection to a resolver
[14:07:50] <ajsaf@jabber.org> You can get a similar effect now under the draft by just observing whether a client actually times out when you told it to
[14:07:58] <DanYork> Now on draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse
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[14:08:50] <DanYork> Kazunori Fujiwara presenting - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-00
[14:09:04] <DanYork> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dnsop-3.pdf
[14:09:06] <Pieter Lexis> DanYork: -01
[14:09:22] <Pieter Lexis> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-01
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[14:10:53] <DanYork> Pieter Lexis: Thank you!  it's curious... https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-00 gives no idea there is a -01.
[14:11:15] <tjw.ietf > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse/
[14:11:29] <tjw.ietf > that is the 01 draft
[14:11:36] <tjw.ietf > ahh. hnmm
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[14:13:40] <DanYork> tjw.ietf : right ... I was just commenting that there seems to be a sync detail with the tools site.  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-01 shows both -00 and -01.    But https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-00  only shows -00.  It *should* show the existence of a -01 draft as well.   It's a tools.ietf.org issue.
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[14:14:36] <ajsaf@jabber.org> What is Warren's hat?
[14:14:44] <John Levine> mic: this would be very useful for rDNS and DNSBLs, particularly when crooks start hopping around in their /64 to try and avoid blacklists
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[14:14:58] <tjw.ietf > i think it is a funnel
[14:15:00] <John Levine> (... IPv6 rDNS and ...)
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[14:15:17] <Ted Lemon> That's Ralf Weber... :)
[14:15:31] <tjw.ietf > thanks Ted! not even here and bringing it
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[14:15:52] <DanYork> John .. im in line
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[14:16:19] <John Levine> ok tnx
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[14:17:07] <DanYork> Rob Austein at mic
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[14:19:30] <DanYork> Peter Koch at mic
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[14:20:43] <DanYork> Paul Wouters at mic
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[14:21:13] <DanYork> Olafur Gudmundsson at mic
[14:22:32] <DanYork> me channelling John
[14:22:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I have to say I am not convinced the draft is ready for WG adoption, because it isn't clear whether people really think it's a good thing (some do)
[14:22:40] <DanYork> Mark Andrews at mic
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[14:22:57] <DanYork> ajsaf@jabber.org: are you asking for a relay or was that a side comment?
[14:23:12] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I'd therefore like to encourage the authors to keep working on it, and maybe to include some of the reasoning that Peter K just asked for
[14:23:25] <ajsaf@jabber.org> It's a side comment, because the mic lines are closed
[14:23:48] <Weiler> Andrew: concur.  More discussion seems in order.  Dan: sadly, the lines are closed, otherwise we might continue the discussion in the room…
[14:24:11] <DanYork> Weiler: true
[14:24:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I think the chairs suggested that it needs to continue, just that the agenda doesn't allow longer time
[14:24:32] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I also think that Mark is on crack about this CD=0 obsession he has.
[14:24:55] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Although I at last understand his argument.
[14:25:37] <John Levine> agree more work useful, have my doubts about AD
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[14:26:10] <paulwouters> AD? or you mean CD? or AN ?
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[14:26:58] <Ted Lemon> better not be talking about Joel!
[14:27:21] <John Levine> sorry, AN. If you want to use this hack, use DNSSEC
[14:27:24] <DanYork> This is Joe Abley speaking about KSK Key Roll
[14:27:35] <tjw.ietf >   https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jabley-dnssec-trust-anchor-11.txt
  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jabley-dnsop-validator-bootstrap-00
[14:27:51] <tjw.ietf > I think those are what Joe is getting to
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[14:28:29] <DanYork> Draft is https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jabley-dnssec-trust-anchor-11
[14:28:55] <DanYork> Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dnsop-6.pdf
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[14:30:11] <Weiler> I'm surprised Joe isn't quoting David Wheeler.
[14:31:49] <Rob Austein> Unsurprisingly (because we have disagreed on this for at least fifteen years), I do not agree with Mark Andrews's comments at the end of the discussion of the agressive negative caching discussion.  I'm fine with the recursive nameserver doing validation regardless of status of CD bit, and I don't care about the CPU time it spends on that.  What I care about is having a mechanism which REQUIRES the recursive nameserver to return the RRsets that answer the question a validating stub asked, so that the stub can do that validation.
[14:31:58] <DanYork> Mike St. John at mic
[14:32:16] <tjw.ietf > Rob, thanks for those comments.  
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[14:32:46] <Weiler> Rob: can we do that without making it a "DDOS-bit" - where any DDOS'er just turns on the bit to bypass the protection?
[14:32:51] <DanYork> John Dickinson at mic
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[14:33:15] <ajsaf@jabber.org> If a DDoSer is using CD=1, you stop answering them
[14:33:40] <ajsaf@jabber.org> just like you do in every other DDoS case
[14:34:54] <Rob Austein> Pretty much.  Alternative is only provide recursive service to known (transport level trust relationship, TSIG, …) entities, which is a more comprehensive version of not answering the DDOS.
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[14:35:11] <DanYork> Wes Hardaker at mic
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[14:36:17] <DanYork> (I agree with Wes)
[14:37:19] <DanYork> George Michaelson at mic
[14:37:45] <DanYork> Mike St. Johns at mic
[14:38:04] <Weiler> Can we quote David Wheeler yet?
[14:38:15] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Any time you like!
[14:38:55] <Weiler> for our next trick: we'll put the OS update keys in the DNS.  go DANE!
[14:39:18] <DanYork> :-)
[14:39:26] <paulwouters> weiler: actually, selinux policy with dane :)
[14:39:29] <paulwouters> J/K
[14:40:17] <dch> excellent point, vast bulk of home & small business users are behind these devices. Pain misses the point completely.
[14:40:24] <DanYork> George M back at mic
[14:40:57] <DanYork> Ed Lewis at mic
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[14:42:37] <Ted Lemon> That is an awesome hat!
[14:43:02] <DanYork> Warren presenting... with the hat
[14:43:08] <Suzanne (co-chair)> That's a hat?
[14:43:34] <Pieter Lexis> looks like a Tajine
[14:43:47] <paulwouters> i thought a teletubby ?
[14:43:48] <Weiler> Maybe it's a handle.
[14:44:21] <habbie@gmail.com> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dnsop-4.pdf
[14:45:07] <Rob Austein> He was getting too many funny looks in the tinfoil baseball cap.
[14:45:08] <Frederico A C Neves> Definitely a teletubbie
[14:45:14] <DanYork> Warren needs to be wearing his "just stick it in DNS" t-shirt
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[14:49:27] <DanYork> Olafur G at mic
[14:49:32] <DanYork> (big mic lines forming)
[14:50:53] <DanYork> Roy Ahrens at mic
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[14:52:56] <DanYork> Stephane Bortzmeyer at mic
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[14:55:00] <DanYork> [side comment: Stephane mentions people don't upgrade due to security issues.  It depends if the security issue has a cute name that the media can seize upon... cute logos also help.]
[14:55:12] <DanYork> John Dickinson on mic
[14:55:29] <DanYork> Paul Hoffman at mic
[14:56:08] <DanYork> Christian Grothoff now presenting...
[14:56:16] <DanYork> A whole group of drafts
[14:56:17] <DanYork> draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-i2p
        draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-gns
        draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-exit
        draft-grothoff-iesg-special-use-p2p-bit
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[14:59:10] <marka> One can always argue that lack of visibility into which trust anchors are in use is a CVE which needs to be fixed.
[15:02:02] <DanYork> George Michaelson at mic
[15:02:17] <DanYork> (and the people start rising to go to the mics... )
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[15:03:22] <DanYork> [At what point do we alert people that COOKIES are at the next break at 17:20 ... and if we run late we miss the cookies? ]  ;-)
[15:03:43] <DanYork> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[15:03:52] <Ted Lemon> I don't think cookies is on the agenda.
[15:04:53] <Ted Lemon> Gah, this is exactly, exactly wrong.
[15:05:17] <DanYork> Ted - want me to relay?
[15:05:25] <Ted Lemon> There's no point.
[15:05:31] <DanYork> BTW, Stuart Cheshire is next at mic
[15:06:00] <Ted Lemon> Andrew is IAB chair, and has consistently and repeatedly insisted on this view, accusing others who disagree of being bad actors, as he is doing now.
[15:06:45] <Ted Lemon> "Attack on somebody else's business model?"   That is so bogus.
[15:06:53] <Ted Lemon> That is exactly backwards.
[15:06:54] <DanYork> Stuart
[15:07:04] <Hosnieh Rafiee> cookie?
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[15:07:11] <Ted Lemon> No cookie for you.
[15:07:12] <Ted Lemon> :)
[15:07:16] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :(
[15:07:28] <DanYork> Okay... we're jumping to the next slides
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[15:08:04] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I eat dnsop_cookies then :)
[15:08:16] <Ted Lemon> Excellent plan.
[15:08:38] <DanYork> Peter Koch speaking
[15:08:54] <DanYork> Slides - https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-dnsop-7.pdf
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[15:11:23] <Suzanne (co-chair)> apologies to all for the time mismanagement, but we're committed to good work on this topic, and we slipped largely because of the excellent discussion of several important drafts earlier.
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[15:12:16] <Frederico A C Neves> Generating packets is quite cheap
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[15:15:05] <DanYork> Alain Durand now presenting...
[15:15:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I think Peter just conflated a distinction I tried to make some weeks ago
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[15:15:46] <ajsaf@jabber.org> the IAB's position (which is in RFC 2826) is about the root zone
[15:15:49] <ajsaf@jabber.org> which is clearly in the DNS
[15:16:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> now, I am not convinced that the document assumes a difference between the DNS root zone and the root of the domain name space
[15:16:18] <ajsaf@jabber.org> but I think there's a distinction to make there
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[15:19:47] <Ted Lemon> Yes, the problem is that we have a thing called a domain name, which almost always is the name of a node in the DNS namespace, but coincidentally also has a function that is the same whether it references a node in the DNS namespace or not.
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[15:20:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Exactly
[15:20:16] <Ted Lemon> Requiring that "competing" protocols use a different naming scheme is a real problem.
[15:21:04] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Well, right, which is why I don't object to (except aesthetically) the in-name switch when the name is valid only in some protocol contexts (e.g. mDNS or Tor)
[15:21:10] <Ted Lemon> And then there's also I guess the possible idea of a separate DNS namespace referenced by the same set of names, which would be the "competing" part of the discussion.
[15:21:21] <ajsaf@jabber.org> But I object quite a lot when then name is supposed to be valid in any protocol context
[15:21:40] <DanYork> George M at mic
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[15:21:43] <Ted Lemon> That's certainly a hard problem.
[15:22:29] <Ted Lemon> We could consider what the design would look like if we had a .nis special-use domain: since nobody is actually advocating for that, but it would be potentially useful, it might be a good gedankenexperiment.
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[15:22:45] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Might do, yeah
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[15:23:04] <DanYork> Stuart Cheshire at mic
[15:23:47] <DanYork> Remote folks... we'll be shutting down quickly here in a few minutes. (We're over time.)   I suspect we may see some of you in DBOUND next and then DANE after that.   (Welcome to Monday, it's "DNS DAY"!)
[15:24:15] <Ted Lemon> httpbis competing with dbound is a bummer... :}
[15:24:24] <Hosnieh Rafiee> DANE yes
[15:24:32] <Ted Lemon> +1, Stuart.
[15:24:56] <Hosnieh Rafiee> Thanks Dan.. so that means that we'll be kicked out soon
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[15:24:59] <Ted Lemon> er, httpauth
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[15:25:38] <DanYork> Joe Abley at mic
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[15:26:04] <Suzanne (co-chair)> This discussion will continue on the list, so all will have their say. But we do have only a few more minutes
[15:26:06] <DanYork> Hosnieh Rafiee: Yes... there's another WG in 15 mins.  we need to clear out soon.
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[15:27:07] <Hosnieh Rafiee> Thanks the jabber..
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[15:27:12] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :)
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[15:27:25] <DanYork> you're welcome
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[15:27:35] <Ted Lemon> yup, thanks, Dan!
[15:27:51] <DanYork> (the room is emptying as some people leave seeking caffeine and sugar)
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