IETF
dnsop
dnsop@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 22, 2014< ^ >
Tim Wicinski has set the subject to: DNSOP meeting, IETF 89 London
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[12:15:18] bortzmeyer has set the subject to: DNSOP meeting, IETF 90 Toronto (small room)
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[12:55:25] <Dan York> Good morning all
[12:55:30] <Dan York> Do we have remote participants?
[12:55:35] <Dan York> I'll be jabber scribing
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[12:57:08] <muks> is this the URL for the audio stream: http://ietf90streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf901.m3u ?
[12:57:21] Billy Glynn joins the room
[12:57:37] <muks> (it doesn't seem to work. vlc returns "main input error: open of `http://nagasaki.bogus.com:8000/stream01' failed")
[12:57:42] <pawal@blipp.com> same for me
[12:57:55] pawal@blipp.com is now known as pawal
[12:58:12] <Stephen Morris> I'm not getting audio either.
[12:58:19] <Hosnieh Rafiee> me too
[12:58:37] <Hosnieh Rafiee> This room doesn't support meetecho i guess
[12:59:27] <Dan York> The audio probably hasn't started yet.
[12:59:35] <Dan York> They seem to start them right about 9am
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[13:00:36] <pawal> now there is a stream
[13:00:48] <muks> yes, works now
[13:00:58] <Stephen Morris> I see it as well - no sound yet.
[13:01:31] <Dan York> Agenda is at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/agenda/agenda-90-dnsop
[13:02:04] <Stephen Morris> Sound seems OK now
[13:02:04] <Billy Glynn> audio works now
[13:03:06] yone joins the room
[13:03:13] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[13:03:39] <Dan York> Great
[13:03:48] Francisco Arias joins the room
[13:03:53] c joins the room
[13:03:58] <Dan York> The chairs have a few slides to start things off that are NOT on the materials page
[13:04:13] Hugo Kobayashi joins the room
[13:04:38] keith_nm joins the room
[13:04:49] <c> afternoon...sorry if this has been asked, but I can't see a link for stream/webex of this meet...is there one?
[13:04:58] <pawal> only audio
[13:05:25] <c> thank you...
[13:05:48] <Dan York> Just audio today
[13:06:08] Vicky Risk joins the room
[13:06:09] bortzmeyer joins the room
[13:06:24] <bortzmeyer> So, who is the notetaker ?
[13:06:33] <Dan York> If you are remote and want a question asked at the microphone, please preface it with "MIC:", as in:
[13:06:48] <Dan York> MIC: What is the meaning of life?
[13:06:57] <bortzmeyer> Dan York:  42 ?
[13:07:45] <Dan York> exactement!
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[13:09:33] <Dan York> Now talking about "Special Names Update"
[13:10:42] Hugo Salgado joins the room
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[13:11:31] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[13:11:52] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I think the voice is not clear
[13:11:58] <Hosnieh Rafiee> not so loud
[13:12:00] <jerry.lundstrom> audio is very low, is this normal?
[13:12:06] <Hosnieh Rafiee> yes true
[13:12:16] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I have the same problem I can hardly understand what they are telling
[13:12:20] <Dan York> How is Andrew's voice?
[13:12:25] <jerry.lundstrom> very low
[13:12:27] <Hosnieh Rafiee> so low
[13:12:29] <cas> very faint, hard to understand
[13:12:31] <Hosnieh Rafiee> almost I can hear nothing
[13:12:54] <cas> maybe people at the MIC can speak up a little
[13:12:58] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I just wonder why they didn't ask for meetecho...
[13:13:09] <cas> I can understand Suzanne good
[13:13:10] <Hosnieh Rafiee> no not just that mic even I can hear Susane
[13:13:17] <matthijs> and how's Dan voice
[13:13:21] <Hosnieh Rafiee> not so loud
[13:13:24] <marka> soft
[13:13:32] <matthijs> ok, it was much louder in the room :)
[13:13:37] <jerry.lundstrom> thanks Dan
[13:13:38] <pawal> thanks dan ;)
[13:13:39] <cas> thanks
[13:13:40] <Dan York> Okay, we can ask AMS
[13:13:47] Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room
[13:13:49] <c> Thank you
[13:13:59] c is now known as craigt_bbc
[13:14:03] <Dan York> Now talking about Key Timing - http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-0.pdf
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[13:15:35] <Dan York> Matthijs Mekking presenting
[13:15:53] Suzanne Woolf joins the room
[13:15:55] <Dan York> Slide 4 - key-timing: the present
[13:16:20] <Andrew Sullivan> Only some of ZSK double RRSIG is removed, and I don't care
[13:16:22] <Andrew Sullivan> ship it
[13:16:36] <Dan York> Slide 5 - key-timing: the present
[13:17:37] <Andrew Sullivan> I love the idea that an ASCII-art diagram can ever get "much clearer".  Maybe I'm insufficiently visual.
[13:17:51] <Dan York> Slide 6 - key-timing: the present
[13:17:57] <Dan York> Slide 7 - the future
[13:18:03] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: :-)
[13:18:47] <Dan York> Stephane Bortzmeyer at mic
[13:19:13] <Dan York> Remote folks - is the audio still low?
[13:19:20] <jerry.lundstrom> yes
[13:19:24] <cas> Stephane is good
[13:19:27] <cas> :)
[13:19:29] <jerry.lundstrom> havnt changed really
[13:19:39] <pawal> the audio has only become more distorted
[13:20:06] <muks> dyork: it seems as before ,but people are speaking louder and into the mic perhaps
[13:20:33] <jerry.lundstrom> there is a lot of background static also, so I guess the audio is not taken from the mic system, rather a standalone mic taking the sound from the hall... :/
[13:20:33] <muks> with the volume up, speech is understandable but there's noise
[13:20:35] <cas> audio OK for me now
[13:22:18] <Dan York> Peter Koch speaking
[13:22:23] <Dan York> Tim is uploading the slides now
[13:22:32] <Suzanne Woolf> draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming
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[13:23:25] <Suzanne Woolf> (sorry it's not on the screen, it's in the agenda)
[13:23:26] <Dan York> Look for the double-square brackets and send your comments
[13:23:30] Erik Nygren joins the room
[13:24:21] <Dan York> Anyone willing to review the doc?
[13:24:34] <Hosnieh Rafiee> yes
[13:25:09] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
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[13:25:55] <Dan York> Next up- DNSSEC Roadblock Avoidance
[13:26:09] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-1.pdf
[13:26:19] <Dan York> Ólafur Guðmundsson presenting
[13:26:52] <Dan York> Slide 2 - Ready for WGLC?
[13:27:26] <Dan York> Slide 3 - Anycast Resolvers
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[13:29:21] <Dan York> Slide 4 - DNS Proxies
[13:30:55] <Dan York> Comments?
[13:31:04] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker (co-author) at mic
[13:31:44] <marka> wes is v soft
[13:31:58] <Suzanne Woolf> better?
[13:32:01] <Dan York> He was farther from the mic
[13:32:06] <pawal> dan - remember to speak up
[13:32:18] <cas> little better
[13:32:33] <Dan York> Ted Lemon at mic
[13:32:58] <Dan York> FYI, I *have* filed a ticket with the NOC saying we have low volume
[13:33:04] <Suzanne Woolf> thanks Dan
[13:34:12] <Dan York> PHB at mic
[13:34:39] <marka> future work:  how to minimise problems due to proxy
[13:35:06] <Dan York> (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
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[13:36:27] <Dan York> Paul Wouters at mic
[13:36:27] Olafur Gudmundsson leaves the room
[13:37:46] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
[13:37:55] Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room
[13:37:59] liman joins the room
[13:39:23] <Dan York> Daniel Migault now presenting
[13:39:38] <Suzanne Woolf> draft-mglt-dnsop-dnssec-validator-requirements
[13:39:47] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-2.pdf
[13:39:59] <Dan York> Slide 3: Motivations and Goals
[13:40:27] <Dan York> Slide 4: Requirements
[13:41:12] <Dan York> Slide 5: Requirements
[13:42:24] <Dan York> Slide 6 - missing any requirements?
[13:43:03] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
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[13:44:57] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[13:45:20] <Dan York> Joe Abley at mic
[13:46:56] <Dan York> And now the "Scaling the Root Zone" fun begins .....  :-)
[13:47:16] <Dan York> First, Paul Hoffman presenting
[13:47:18] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-3.pdf
[13:47:25] Frederico A C Neves leaves the room
[13:47:27] <Dan York> Slide 2
[13:48:21] <Dan York> Slide 3
[13:50:08] <Suzanne Woolf> Not really scaling the root zone….more scaling of the distribution/availability of root zone data, which is a sightly different topic :)
[13:51:37] <Dan York> We're up to slide 4, "Goals first"
[13:51:47] <Dan York> Slide 5 - specific changes
[13:52:55] Benno Overeinder joins the room
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[13:55:43] Suzanne Woolf joins the room
[13:56:22] <Dan York> Any questions?
[13:56:39] Vicky Risk leaves the room
[13:56:48] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[13:57:01] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
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[13:58:26] <matthijs> resolvers already may discard items from the cache even if the TTL has not expired
[13:59:17] <Dan York> Lars-Johan Liman at mic
[13:59:44] <craigt_bbc> is he?
[14:00:06] <matthijs> he is tall and the mic is low
[14:00:13] <jerry.lundstrom> s/at/near/ :)
[14:00:24] <Dan York> :-)
[14:00:45] <Dan York> Lars just lifted up the whole mic on its stand
[14:00:53] <craigt_bbc> that's better :)
[14:01:50] <Dan York> Joe Abley at mic
[14:04:10] <Dan York> George Michaelson at mic
[14:04:33] <craigt_bbc> Agree with the Joe...
[14:04:52] <marka> The problem is single labels being looked up at the root.  This is more of a problem when they are looked up first on search lists.
[14:05:04] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
[14:05:20] <Dan York> marka: are you asking for a relay or just commenting to the chat side channel?
[14:06:06] <marka> mic
[14:07:12] <Frederico A C Neves> The more likely scenario is actually recursive resolver path completely broken for all auths it they actually are for the root. Motivation for goal 1 is a RH.
[14:07:26] <marka> mic: it's a matter of having every element on the search list being available locally
[14:07:41] <marka> for unqualified named
[14:07:43] <marka> names
[14:07:54] <Dan York> Onto next draft presented by Xiaodong Lee
[14:07:57] SM joins the room
[14:07:59] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-4.pdf
[14:08:09] <Dan York> marka: My apologies. Chairs had closed mic line
[14:08:13] Hugo Kobayashi leaves the room
[14:08:16] <marka> np
[14:08:19] <Andrew Sullivan> That sure doesn't look like Xioadong Lee to me
[14:08:28] mikemlb joins the room
[14:08:28] <Dan York> Slide 3: Motivation
[14:08:52] <Suzanne Woolf> we're trying to save some time to revisit the general (not draft-specific) topic so MarkA may get another chance :)
[14:08:52] yone leaves the room
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[14:09:21] <liman> The mic line was closed, but ...
Please involve the root server operators when trying to decude what they like or not. My take is that the RSO are there to server the internet users. If the usage profile needs to change, RSOs will have to look into the issue and adapt. The service profile is not cast in stone.
[14:09:23] <Andrew Sullivan> I think it's Zhiwei Yan.
[14:09:39] <Ning Kong> yes, one of the co authors
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[14:11:25] <Dan York> Thanks for correcting the speaker name.  I knew this wasn't the Xiadong Lee that I know ... but was just going off the agenda.
[14:11:50] <Dan York> We've moved up to slide 8, Data synchronization
[14:12:13] <Suzanne Woolf> our apologies to the speaker and the group re: agenda
[14:13:06] <Dan York> Slide 9
[14:13:08] <Dan York> Slide 10
[14:13:59] Olafur Gudmundsson leaves the room
[14:15:04] <Dan York> At the end and open for comments
[14:15:04] rgb leaves the room
[14:15:13] <Dan York> Warren Kumari at mic
[14:15:29] <marka> SPEAKUP
[14:15:52] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I cannot hear it
[14:15:53] <jerry.lundstrom> can barely hear
[14:16:05] <Dan York> is that better?
[14:16:06] <Suzanne Woolf> this mic seems to be the wrong height for everyone :)
[14:16:07] <matthijs> Warren standing on his toes now
[14:16:08] <marka> noise > signal
[14:16:18] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :)
[14:17:00] <Dan York> John Dickinson at mic
[14:18:33] <Dan York> And HERE is Xiaodong Lee !
[14:19:02] <craigt_bbc> hearing nothing of this :/
[14:19:19] <marka> floor mic is useless
[14:19:23] <Suzanne Woolf> sorry re: audio, we did file a ticket :(
[14:19:27] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I didn't understand the last two discussion
[14:19:35] <pawal> it has gotten worse
[14:19:36] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :'-(
[14:19:42] <Dan York> Lars Liman at mic (and holding up the mic stand)
[14:19:57] <Andrew Sullivan> The last two speakers were low at mic in room too, FWIW
[14:20:08] <Dan York> yes, they were softspoken
[14:20:15] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :-/
[14:20:53] <Dan York> David Conrad at mic
[14:21:24] <craigt_bbc> Thank you Suzanne
[14:21:42] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I can hear the raining sound more than what is going on in IETF
[14:21:49] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :-$
[14:21:56] <Dan York> Ning Kong presenting
[14:22:02] john.levine joins the room
[14:22:06] <Dan York> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-5.pdf
[14:22:14] Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room
[14:22:59] <craigt_bbc> Hosnieh Rafiee: I have modified my speakers to attenuate the noise and reverb the vocals :)
[14:23:33] <craigt_bbc> it's working well...
[14:24:14] <Dan York> We're up to slide 4
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[14:26:27] <Dan York> Slide 7   (sorry, dealing with some interrupts)
[14:26:31] <Hosnieh Rafiee> craigt-bcc: actually I have no problem when someone presenting
[14:26:34] <Hosnieh Rafiee> but at the mik
[14:26:39] <Hosnieh Rafiee> I have this problem
[14:26:45] <Dan York> Slide 8
[14:27:01] <craigt_bbc> same...
[14:27:22] <Hosnieh Rafiee> so probably during discussion the best I can do is :coffee:
[14:27:23] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :)
[14:28:17] <Dan York> Slide 9
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[14:29:42] <Dan York> Slide 10
[14:29:44] <craigt_bbc> one mans simple... ... ...
[14:29:44] <Dan York> Slide 11
[14:29:51] <Suzanne Woolf> style points for the sigma in DNS! :)
[14:29:57] <Dan York> Slide 12
[14:29:59] <Dan York> Slide 13
[14:30:16] SM joins the room
[14:30:16] <Dan York> Slide 14
[14:30:22] <matthijs> seeing slides with equations that make key-timing stupendously trivial :)
[14:30:54] <Dan York> Yes, that "Simple" example certainly provided a moment of amusement
[14:31:02] <Dan York> Slide 15
[14:31:29] mikemlb leaves the room
[14:31:36] <Dan York> Lars Liman at mic
[14:32:46] <Dan York> John Levine at mic
[14:33:57] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[14:35:27] <liman> Can we PLEEEASE kill the notion that the root zone has different technical properties than other zones? Pretty. Please?
[14:35:32] <Dan York> The theme would be "scaling"
[14:35:41] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[14:36:11] <marka> audio is better
[14:36:28] <craigt_bbc> think we're just lucky with the speakers :)
[14:36:43] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
[14:36:47] <Suzanne Woolf> Dan: one of the things we wanted was to get a better grasp of whether/how these items are related
[14:36:57] <marka> no Andrew was soft before
[14:37:13] Erik Nygren leaves the room
[14:37:15] <Suzanne Woolf> we're fine if the answer is "not very" :)
[14:37:57] <Dan York> :-)
[14:38:25] <Dan York> Russ Mundy at mic
[14:38:54] <marka> mic:  answer for Peter:  working when disconnected from the rest of the net
[14:39:16] <marka> local net working ....
[14:39:16] <craigt_bbc> The data is almost certainly based on topology; it's more the presentation that is geography based...
[14:40:23] <Dan York> marka - what is your full name?
[14:40:38] <marka> Mark Andrews
[14:41:11] <matthijs> Dan York at the mic
[14:41:33] <Dan York> marka: Thank you... I thought it was you.
[14:41:39] <Dan York> matthijs: Thanks :-)
[14:42:12] <craigt_bbc> on all 3?
[14:42:52] <Dan York> Is there interest in draft Hoffman/Kumari draft?
[14:43:04] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic - can we focus on problem statement first?
[14:43:46] <Dan York> Geoff Huston at mic
[14:44:18] <marka> mic: so we need to add a zone signature?
[14:44:24] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
[14:44:26] <marka> s/so/do/
[14:45:17] <craigt_bbc> These are a mix of functional an non-functional scaling and resilience requirements imo
[14:45:32] <marka> yes
[14:46:30] SM leaves the room
[14:47:34] <Hosnieh Rafiee> :)now the audio is so loud.. I had to turn it down :)
[14:47:41] <Dan York> Lars Liman at mic
[14:48:01] <Olafur Gudmundsson> DNSRG == DNS Revolution Group
[14:48:22] cas leaves the room
[14:48:38] cas joins the room
[14:48:52] <Dan York> Hum on root scaling draft?  Who thinks the group should continue to discuss that?
[14:48:59] <Dan York> Weak hum
[14:49:07] <Dan York> Opposed?
[14:49:21] <Dan York> Stronger hum... but still not very strong
[14:49:33] <craigt_bbc> +1 on placement draft
[14:49:43] <Dan York> Okay... we've hummed on 3rd draft
[14:49:57] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[14:51:54] <Dan York> Paul Hoffman at mic
[14:53:05] <craigt_bbc> As with all referenda, it's how you phrase the question ;)
[14:53:48] <Frederico A C Neves> Paul - presentation 1 address something totally != from presentation 2
[14:53:51] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan at mic
[14:54:51] each joins the room
[14:55:52] <Dan York> Joel Jaeggli at mic
[14:56:01] mikemlb joins the room
[14:56:22] <Dan York> We Hardaker at mic
[14:56:35] <keith_nm> to be clear, OARC is not a forum for standards development
[14:56:49] <keith_nm> if people want to present their work at our workshops and have it discussed, fine
[14:56:55] <Dan York> keith_nm: right
[14:57:21] <keith_nm> or use our dataset as input to standards development, great
[14:57:42] <Dan York> Olaf Kolkman at mic
[14:59:07] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
[15:00:25] <Dan York> keith_nm: as i am in line anyway i will relay that
[15:00:41] <Dan York> Geoff Huston at mic
[15:01:00] Olafur Gudmundsson leaves the room
[15:02:09] <Frederico A C Neves> Thanks Geoff!
[15:02:10] <Andrew Sullivan> I don't know how Geoff understood me as attributing theological argument to him, but my apologies for having done so.
[15:02:55] <Andrew Sullivan> I was saying instead that the question put was whether the WG should _not_ work on this, given that there's a stated problem, and I wanted to understand the semantics
[15:03:28] <Andrew Sullivan> two people replied to me saying, AIUI, "This topic is too fraught," and I think that's a lousy and dangerous thing for this WG to say
[15:03:30] <keith_nm> thanks Dan, the front of the line looks like a long way away from the back of the room :-)
[15:03:31] <Dan York> me (Dan York) at mic
[15:03:36] <gih> I was trying to say that I hummed against some of these drafts on the basis that from my own operational engineering experience I felt that the underlying approach was sufficiently weak that I did not feel it was viable
[15:03:41] <Dan York> Lars Liman at mic
[15:04:25] <Andrew Sullivan> If instead one adopts Geoff's argument (in parody: "there is not a problem here and if there were this would be a lousy way to handle it"), that's a different reason not to adopt
[15:04:39] <Andrew Sullivan> he's answered my question in a different way, and I appreciate that
[15:04:41] <gih> there is nothing too fraught in terms of the topic if there are useful engineering and operational appproaches that can make the network scale better
[15:04:43] <Dan York> Ah, yes... we DO have more to talk about!  :-)
[15:04:57] <Dan York> Matthijs is up now speaking about Key and Signing Policies
[15:05:00] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-6.pdf
[15:05:08] <Dan York> Slide 2
[15:05:26] <Andrew Sullivan> Right, got what you meant.  That wasn't the answer I heard from Paul or Peter or Suzanne, though, and that's what was troubling me
[15:05:33] <Suzanne Woolf> I was the one who asked for hums against, and it was fair to ask me what information I was seeking. Thanks to everyone who commented.
[15:05:47] <Dan York> Slide 3
[15:05:57] <Frederico A C Neves> I think that mixing the discussion of those tree drafts was unfortunatelly a bad admin decision.
[15:07:52] <Dan York> Slide 4
[15:07:53] <Dan York> Slide 5
[15:08:01] <Dan York> Slide 6
[15:11:11] <Dan York> Paul Wouters at mic
[15:11:54] <Dan York> Olafur Gudmundsson at mic
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[15:12:31] <Dan York> Wes Hardaker at mic
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[15:15:34] <Dan York> Next presentation
[15:16:00] <jerry.lundstrom> Our idea was more about data structure and what kind of values you should be able to configure and what they mean
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[15:16:06] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-7.pdf
[15:16:17] <Dan York> Kazunori Fujiwara presenting
[15:16:20] <jerry.lundstrom> but more on that on the ml (hopefully)
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[15:17:03] <Dan York> Slide 3
[15:17:18] <Dan York> Slide 4 - 3. Measures to forged response attacks
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[15:18:30] <Dan York> Slide 5 - 4. Possible solution
[15:18:39] <Dan York> Slide 6 - Missed to write -00
[15:22:31] <Dan York> Next
[15:22:39] <Dan York> Lee Howard speaking about http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-8.pdf
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[15:22:51] <Dan York> Slide 3
[15:22:57] <Dan York> Problem statement
[15:23:21] <Dan York> Slide 4 - Alternatives
[15:24:35] <Dan York> Slide 5 - Recommendations
[15:25:37] <marka> Mic: See: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-andrews-dnsop-pd-reverse/ it addresses this issue
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[15:25:55] craigt_bbc has this very problem...smtp server policies being the main problem
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[15:26:18] <Dan York> Bernie Volz at mic
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[15:26:55] <Dan York> marka: relayed
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[15:27:45] <Dan York> Joe Abley presenting http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/slides/slides-90-dnsop-9.pdf
[15:27:52] <Dan York> Slide 2
[15:28:21] <Dan York> Slide 3
[15:28:21] <fdupont> I-D itself is at https://github.com/ableyjoe/draft-jabley-multicast-ptr
[15:28:59] <Dan York> Slide 4 - Open Issues
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[15:29:29] <Dan York> Slide 5 - Next Steps
[15:29:40] <Dan York> Peter Koch at mic
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[15:31:01] <Dan York> hum about whether we think this needs to be addressed?
[15:31:05] <Dan York> weak hum yes
[15:31:30] <Dan York> And we're done
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