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[09:52:26] steve crocker, dnssec history project [09:52:44] simon joins the room [09:52:58] the first 20 years [09:53:42] 3, the end of the beginning [09:53:55] anybody listening from remote? how's audio? [09:54:04] 4, a long way to go [09:54:30] 5, let's capture the history [09:54:37] pk: distorted [09:55:13] 6, https://wiki.tools.isoc.org/DNSSEC_History_Project [09:56:19] 7, thematic topics [09:56:51] 8, narrower contributions [09:56:54] jelte leaves the room [09:57:14] 9, lists [09:57:40] 10, get involved [09:58:05] https:wiki.tools.isoc.org/DNSSEC_History_Project [09:59:14] marco joins the room [09:59:43] no hands [10:00:08] I think people ought to take the legacy a little more seriously....lots to be learned [10:00:37] next topic, draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-key-timing-02.txt , -bis, etc [10:01:37] bortzmeyer joins the room [10:01:51] So, Suz, you're gonna write some stuff for the wiki then, right? [10:02:08] ray joins the room [10:02:08] bortzmeyer has set the subject to: DNSOP@IETF79 [10:02:28] pk - Johan is barely audible at the back - his mic isn't picking him up [10:03:01] thanks Suzanne :) [10:03:09] yes in fact. I do think people should, and therefore I'm willing to be a stuckee :) [10:03:24] matthijs leaves the room [10:03:54] a lot of people have not gotten the credit they deserve for a lot of what makes the Internet go. Since mostly they haven't done it for credit, that's mostly OK. But every once in awhile, they should speak up. [10:04:08] matthijs joins the room [10:04:34] ogud leaves the room [10:04:40] ogud joins the room [10:05:47] key timing draft next steps....start work on a -bis doc now? [10:06:02] slide 5 [10:06:09] russ joins the room [10:06:13] aleez joins the room [10:06:16] (sorry it took me a few minutes to get in sync) [10:07:17] slide 6 [10:08:30] slide 7 [10:09:12] slide 8 [10:09:54] jelte joins the room [10:10:19] slide 9 [10:10:55] fisher joins the room [10:11:26] fisher leaves the room [10:11:51] slide 10 [10:12:13] should the WG push this out and initiate work on a -bis document? [10:12:22] should we do it immediately or wait? [10:12:54] I will grab a mic for anyone in the jabber room who has a question/comment [10:12:58] the answer to question 1. is imo yes [10:13:44] I am currently writing down my ideas, so for me the answer to 2. is yes too:) [10:14:44] Mohsen joins the room [10:15:01] I think we should nail down who is the audience for the key timing draft: implementors or operators [10:15:22] please flag how much of your comments are meant for the mic.... [10:15:26] implementors want detail [10:15:57] might be mic-worthy [10:16:20] o, i hear johan makes my point [10:16:30] yes, was just going to say that [10:16:32] g.e.montenegro joins the room [10:16:43] yes, we get audio a minute or so before you matthijs [10:17:03] yeah, i noticed:) [10:17:47] Andrew Sullivan: what's the basis for a -bis doc? it would be nice to do that right away, but having the doc out there when we know it's wrong obligates us to get the -bis out quickly. [10:18:04] admits this volunteers him. [10:18:10] I agree [10:18:17] Johan: not wrong, just incomplete [10:18:50] Michael Graff: break it up into multiple documents, e.g. algorithm roll, nsec roll, etc. Zone maintenance may be one topic [10:18:57] Johan: current document or -bis? [10:19:13] Michael: good and useful as-is, but -bis should be broken up [10:20:16] Peter Koch as chair, calls for working group response on whether we should LC it or keep working on it [10:20:33] speaker(?): what's the value of publishing now vs. waiting? [10:20:55] Rickard [10:21:00] johan: suboptimal to have it out there as a draft with no movement [10:21:06] matthijs: thanks [10:21:40] pk: of the 10 who've read it, how many think it should go out soonish as a single document? 8 or 9, seems like rough consensus among those who've read it [10:21:55] take it to the list for ratification of the decision to lc "soonly" [10:22:06] rfc4641bis [10:22:07] next up: brief 4641bis [10:22:24] [mic] to what extent can we do major surgery on the bis document? [10:22:35] well the audio delay got me :) [10:22:45] posted recently, some discussion, main editor has asked for guidance, chairs note this and will consult with Olaf as main editor when he's available again but he's not at the moment. [10:23:18] matthijs: a -bis always allows for the possibility of major changes [10:23:25] OK to wait on LC because we have a couple of other docs in LC soon and there are some comments on -05 [10:23:34] Jason Livingood, DNS Whitelisting [10:23:35] dns-whitelisting, http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/slides/dnsop-1.pdf [10:23:37] slide 2 [10:23:38] Andrew: ok, thanks [10:24:27] Jason: one question is where this doc should live, has been presented in v6ops and intarea and now here [10:24:30] slide 3 [10:26:09] slide 4 [10:26:36] recapping the draft [10:26:50] Bernie joins the room [10:27:40] slide 6 [10:28:04] John Curran joins the room [10:28:44] ed lewis at mic [10:28:54] fujiwara joins the room [10:29:24] jelte leaves the room [10:29:46] back to nluug [10:29:48] matthijs leaves the room [10:29:49] slide 7 [10:30:44] process/business issues.... [10:31:06] slide 8 [10:31:30] more process/business concerns [10:31:47] slide 9 [10:31:50] operations issues [10:33:13] sunguonian leaves the room [10:33:13] vincent-afnic leaves the room [10:34:08] slide 10 [10:34:25] possible solutions or alternatives [10:35:22] slide 11 [10:35:47] questions/requests: where does it live? and please provide feedback [10:36:23] rstory joins the room [10:37:22] mohsen souissi at mic [10:37:56] Mohsen Soussi: applauds Google for IPv6 deployment commitment, but we should forget about this because it's a nightmare to deploy widely, should be recommended against [10:38:09] sound quality is very bad... [10:38:27] Mohsen does not understand the motivation [10:38:36] johan ihrén [10:38:58] slide 3 [10:39:31] Johan asks for detail on what the request is: single query for A, AAAA, or both? [10:39:43] Jason: typical query is for both [10:39:50] Suzanne, I do understand the motivation but I can't catch what the author recommend or discourage clearly :-) [10:40:00] mark andrews [10:40:04] Mohsen: sorry [10:40:13] and thanks for the correction ;) [10:40:45] Mark thinks it could be clearer [10:41:02] My point that the community should get a clear position on this matter whether it is discouraged/tolerated/recommended! [10:41:38] And my position is get rid of it now that v6 is getting more and more mature [10:42:17] discussion of where it will live [10:42:21] Olafur at the mic [10:42:32] there are two drafts here, the background information and the recommendations [10:42:57] a question of when to take the pain, now or later [10:43:10] in both DNS and IPv6 [10:43:28] suggests an informational document now, DNSOP could be responsible for a recmomendations document [10:43:34] andrew sullivan at mic [10:43:53] John Curran leaves the room [10:44:01] John Curran joins the room [10:44:12] no opinion on how many docs, should live in v6ops, someone from dnsop should follow it [10:45:07] In my understanding of this, there is broken stuff, which is (apparently) becoming legacy. The legacy support is to withhold the AAAA response from them. The point is how to deploy this; the problems stem from the manual nature of the fix, some automated detection and fix would be useful for ISPs; but that needs to be dependable. [not for the mic, Suz]. [10:45:23] five people admitted to be regulars at v6ops [10:45:44] mohsen at the mic: before committing, what are we suiggesting to v6ops? two docs? [10:46:03] that's right. thanks! [10:46:32] ncsp is up next [10:46:41] nscp, hmm [10:48:07] jelte strides slowly to the stage....(sorry) [10:49:01] history: bof and mailing list on nscp scope [10:49:36] iab and iesg have redirected the effort back to dnsop [10:51:18] pk: seemed like less work in the end to bring this here [10:52:10] ning kong, http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/slides/dnsop-4.pdf [10:52:16] Kong draft....slide 2 Overview [10:52:26] (no slide numbers, will use titles) [10:53:06] jelte joins the room [10:54:11] ray leaves the room [10:56:34] mbj joins the room [10:57:08] Configuration Zone and Record [10:58:19] Format of CRs [10:59:10] Messages [10:59:13] gigix73 joins the room [11:00:04] Class and Type [11:00:37] Notify [11:00:43] Transport [11:00:50] edmonchung leaves the room [11:01:00] Security Considerations [11:01:48] Meeting the Requirements [11:02:14] g.e.montenegro leaves the room [11:02:19] Meeting the Requirements, 2 [11:02:26] (same title repeated) [11:02:31] edmonchung joins the room [11:02:36] pawal leaves the room [11:02:49] Meeting the Requirements (third) [11:02:50] pawal joins the room [11:03:31] end of presentation, clarifying questions? [11:03:37] comments later, after the other preso [11:04:01] John Curran leaves the room [11:04:04] draft-dickinson-dnsop-nameserver-control-01.txt [11:04:09] stephen morris [11:04:27] John Curran joins the room [11:04:30] http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/slides/dnsop-2.pdf [11:04:34] Michael Graff joins the room [11:05:27] no slide numbers here either, title "Function Breakdown" [11:05:42] ahh, there's a number: slide 2 [11:05:56] slide 3 [11:06:12] lubos.slovak joins the room [11:07:51] slide 4 [11:09:00] slide 5 [11:09:59] slide 6 [11:10:12] vincent-afnic joins the room [11:10:27] lubos.slovak is now known as Lubos Slovak [11:10:52] slide 7 [11:11:57] slide 8 [11:12:40] slide 9 [11:13:05] sunguonian joins the room [11:14:01] stephane bortzmeyer at the mic: clarifying question, implementation status? [11:14:43] I clearly need to write a RESTful method to control servers. [11:14:44] Haven't we learnt anything from the applications area? We need a RESTful nscp protocol design. [11:14:47] nscp prototype exists, but not a lot of experience [11:15:00] Michael: GMTA ;-) [11:15:43] PK, question: should we work on this? who's volunteering? [11:16:34] at the mic (?): there are several netconf implementation available [11:17:42] Wes Hardaker at the mic: I want solutions! as a DNS guy and a network management guy. eventual progression of management in protocols: IETF protocols are initially not managed, private config only, until that gets too awkward. [11:17:53] wes hardecker [11:18:49] wes: this eventually doesn't scale, protocols start being improved with management features and OOB and then in-band mgmt [11:19:29] wes: 2 problems to solve: in8itial content of master nameserver requires significant work, slaves less so [11:19:51] jinjian joins the room [11:19:52] wes: we might need a blend of different techniques for masters and slaves [11:20:45] Michael Graff at the mic [11:20:52] michael: why not RESTful? [11:21:13] do we have a volunteer for another draft? :p [11:21:15] michael: not only master and slave as interesting cases [11:21:35] michael: no encryption, so how can you pass around TSIG keys [11:21:45] The data model in the netconf draft is good enough [11:21:58] Catch it and layer it on top of HTTP-REST design [11:22:20] michael: some people want to use DNS protocol for everything, in this case it's wrong because DNS config should be OOB [11:22:48] michael: why not XML [11:23:01] The application will have persistent resources and those can be assigned persistent URLs [11:23:03] ed lewis at the mic: servers can be both masters and slaves [11:23:31] ed lewis: zone managers using servers to publish data; host managers using hosts to do stuff [11:23:40] John Curran leaves the room [11:23:49] John Curran joins the room [11:23:53] pawal leaves the room [11:23:58] ed lewis: there are reasons to go in-band, not always clear how [11:24:07] pawal joins the room [11:25:35] mark andrews at the mic: edns0 doesn't re-write dns headers properly. Only the first 3 headers required to be in-band for port 53. otherwise, pick a new opcode and go nuts.don't insist on fitting within existing record structure [11:25:51] pk: how many have read req doc? 27 [11:26:04] how many the solutions drafts? roughly 10 each [11:26:37] pk: did not expect we'd come out with a real answer, but we need to make progress [11:27:16] Marcos: want to write a RESTful design for this? :) [11:27:40] gigix73 leaves the room [11:28:05] antoin verschuren [11:28:19] Andrew Sullivan at the mic, wordsmithing Peter's question on quality review of documents (he meant quality as attribute of reviews) [11:28:24] now antoin [11:29:29] i hereby declare rndc as the standard [11:29:40] done :) [11:29:51] John Curran leaves the room [11:29:54] works for me [11:29:58] John Curran joins the room [11:30:16] pk: Antoin is not sure what problem we're trying to solve, network config that happens to be about nameservers, or something that's part of the nameserver [11:30:38] Stephane: a set of nameservers with shared function may be in different admin regimes [11:31:16] we need a standard for how to talk across the admin boundaries [11:31:23] nsd *and* BIND! [11:32:39] Andrew Sullivan: agrees, notes people here tend to operate sophisticated infrastructure and resources, not everyone does, this may be considered part of the your DNS operations environment either way [11:33:37] ondrej at the mic [11:33:58] chris griffiths at the mic: likes netconf, but needs to look at options, will review [11:34:40] I had a hard time asking, "What about vendor specific features?" but I failed to remember the details of the netconf doc [11:34:43] ed lewis: problem to be solved again: customers like code/server diversity, but all changes except zone edits are manual and slow and expensive [11:35:16] ed: mgmt data should be as easy to change as zone data [11:35:29] John Curran leaves the room [11:35:53] @Michael Graff: vendor specific (data model) features are handled by YANG (data modeling language for NETCONF) [11:36:03] saved by the bell [11:36:29] we're running out of time, so Peter suggests getting quality comparisons of the proposals against each other and the req doc [11:36:48] Chris Griffiths leaves the room [11:37:00] Roger. [11:37:03] discussion to continue on the list [11:37:13] weiler leaves the room [11:37:20] Michael Graff leaves the room [11:37:23] everybody seems to be alive and happy [11:37:35] but it was very painful :) [11:37:53] it's thursday 19:38, we're as alive as we could possibly be :p [11:38:01] I/O with other WGs as last agenda item [11:38:07] sunguonian leaves the room [11:38:07] vincent-afnic leaves the room [11:38:12] ondrej leaves the room [11:38:32] MIF: new charter approved, including "DNS server selection" = "split DNS" [11:39:11] Frederico Neves leaves the room [11:39:15] Marcos leaves the room [11:39:17] koji leaves the room [11:39:20] mbj leaves the room [11:39:20] Lubos Slovak leaves the room: offline [11:39:25] and we're clear! good morning/afternoon/night, all [11:39:26] rbonica leaves the room [11:39:31] rstory leaves the room [11:39:33] Suzanne Woolf (jabber scribe) leaves the room [11:39:43] yone leaves the room [11:40:05] ogud leaves the room [11:40:06] ywang830 leaves the room [11:40:19] HugoSalgado leaves the room [11:40:21] marco leaves the room [11:40:29] russ leaves the room [11:40:32] johani leaves the room [11:41:04] pk leaves the room: Computer went to sleep [11:41:07] wouter leaves the room [11:41:53] pawal leaves the room [11:42:10] Mohsen leaves the room: Computer went to sleep [11:42:16] johani joins the room [11:42:17] Andrew leaves the room [11:44:20] Rickard Bellgrim leaves the room [11:44:38] jinmei leaves the room [11:46:14] jelte leaves the room [11:48:13] bortzmeyer leaves the room [11:49:05] Bernie leaves the room [11:54:01] johani leaves the room [11:56:05] Jacky Yao (Health Yao) leaves the room [12:06:46] naptee leaves the room [12:09:56] Ralf Weber leaves the room [12:12:29] jinmei joins the room [12:13:07] jpc leaves the room [12:16:51] aleez leaves the room [12:26:05] jinjian leaves the room [12:39:06] jinmei leaves the room [13:01:42] jinjian joins the room [13:05:46] jinjian leaves the room [13:38:18] Bernie joins the room [13:39:05] Bernie leaves the room [13:41:22] Bernie joins the room [13:43:05] Bernie leaves the room [13:44:21] Bernie joins the room [13:46:35] Bernie leaves the room [13:47:05] Bernie joins the room [13:51:35] Bernie leaves the room [13:55:16] simon leaves the room [13:57:30] simon joins the room [14:02:08] naptee joins the room [14:04:17] naptee leaves the room [14:09:03] Bernie joins the room [14:13:05] Bernie leaves the room [14:13:28] brian leaves the room [14:13:46] Bernie joins the room [14:41:06] Bernie leaves the room [14:44:33] fujiwara leaves the room [14:50:32] Bernie joins the room [15:02:22] bortzmeyer joins the room [15:04:18] bortzmeyer leaves the room [15:12:06] Bernie leaves the room [16:03:46] johani joins the room [16:32:16] simon leaves the room [17:11:05] johani leaves the room [23:25:40] pk joins the room