[00:04:29] PaulWouters joins the room [00:19:41] PaulWouters leaves the room [16:08:34] PaulWouters joins the room [17:01:02] PaulWouters leaves the room [17:22:14] PaulWouters joins the room [17:23:18] markkao joins the room [17:23:34] markkao leaves the room [18:05:23] TPHELAN-LMA joins the room [18:05:34] TPHELAN-LMA leaves the room [18:05:45] TomP joins the room [18:06:12] TomP leaves the room [18:07:05] PaulWouters leaves the room [18:11:33] robert joins the room [18:17:31] PaulWouters joins the room [18:31:27] geoff joins the room [18:31:27] PaulWouters leaves the room [18:31:51] geoff leaves the room [18:34:41] robert leaves the room [18:34:47] robert joins the room [18:37:30] sm joins the room [18:37:53] sm leaves the room [18:49:05] PaulWouters joins the room [18:56:36] fneves joins the room [18:57:26] marcos joins the room [18:58:23] dblacka joins the room [19:01:09] audio is good [19:02:29] claudio.marotta joins the room [19:02:32] jpcerezo joins the room [19:02:36] L&G fasten your seatbelts, this is about to start [19:02:38] weiler joins the room [19:02:49] Hola Juampe :-) [19:03:00] hey [19:03:14] marka joins the room [19:03:29] Agenda for today under http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda [19:03:40] Antoin joins the room [19:04:42] matthijs joins the room [19:05:39] Matt Larson joins the room [19:06:08] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73 [19:06:44] chair are fiddling w/ laptops [19:07:00] Steve Crocker joins the room [19:07:22] For the remote participants: if you want to say something, start your line with the ACE-prefix "MIC--" [19:07:25] shinta joins the room [19:07:27] Suzanne joins the room [19:08:14] Session starts [19:08:55] Note Well [19:09:16] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [19:09:32] Tatuya Jinmei joins the room [19:09:41] wherrin joins the room [19:09:41] markkao joins the room [19:09:42] fujiwara joins the room [19:09:46] kivinen joins the room [19:09:48] Jelte joins the room [19:09:51] ogud: Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room [19:09:51] raj joins the room [19:09:52] <-- remote [19:09:53] yone joins the room [19:10:01] chris_griffiths joins the room [19:10:11] reprazent [19:10:16] Show of hands, how many first time attendees? [19:10:19] 10ish [19:10:25] 10 newbies [19:10:29] eric.brunner joins the room [19:10:32] How many not subscribed to the list? About 15 [19:10:39] jaap joins the room [19:11:04] How many uncomfortable with a Friday afternoon slot? The whole room [19:11:09] ogud: Olafur Gudmundsson leaves the room [19:11:11] almost [19:11:11] *laughter* [19:11:11] arifumi joins the room [19:11:21] aalain joins the room [19:11:22] ogud: Olafur Gudmundsson joins the room [19:11:26] :) [19:11:26] fenton joins the room [19:11:27] except the two journalists [19:11:31] bje joins the room [19:11:32] Tatuya Jinmei leaves the room [19:11:36] RFC 5358 published since the last meeting [19:11:42] jinmei joins the room [19:11:46] Chair thanks the editors, Fred and Joao [19:11:49] *applause* [19:11:50] (whew, finally in. Had problems with the Jabber room) [19:12:05] fdupont joins the room [19:12:07] An appeal has been filed rg this doc [19:12:14] http://www.ietf.org/IESG/APPEALS/appeal-anderson-2008-11-14.html [19:12:34] No IDs from this wg in the RFC ed queue [19:12:41] No IDs at the IESG [19:13:04] Two waiting for proto write-up (default-local-zones and reverse-mapping-considerations) [19:13:24] levigner joins the room [19:13:26] Two docs missing in the slides: [19:13:39] liman joins the room [19:13:39] one about the as112 operations, waiting for WGLC [19:14:06] They have to be revived, expired from the archives. Chairs waiting for the update before LCing [19:14:06] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:14:13] as112 doc's to rev for editorial changes then proto write up [19:14:14] Lyman Chapin joins the room [19:14:16] PaulWouters joins the room [19:14:21] onakayu joins the room [19:14:25] fenton leaves the room [19:14:25] hirocomb12 joins the room [19:14:26] fenton joins the room [19:14:50] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: WG Charter [19:14:51] geoff joins the room [19:14:51] Regarding WG-charter: one remaining issue: the WG to deal with performance/benchmarking [19:15:04] slides link http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/dnsop-0.pdf is broken [19:15:10] The AD advised the chairs that 2 existing WGs are dealing with this topics [19:15:17] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [19:15:23] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [19:15:26] Charis discussed with the respective chairs of these WGs. Discussion goes on. [19:15:44] no longer a road block to re-charter [19:15:47] They'll be done with the discussion before the SF meeting [19:16:10] Let0s move on in the agenda to point 4) [19:16:16] respsize awaiting WGLC [19:16:41] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: Active Drafts [19:16:41] Jim Galvin joins the room [19:16:55] The author is in the room and confirms that is time to LC [19:17:12] koji joins the room [19:17:16] FWIW: http://www.ietf.org/IESG/APPEALS/appeal-anderson-2008-11-14.html [19:17:18] AS112 docs need to be revived [19:17:33] sorry for the dup. [19:17:46] -trust-anchors-00 -> WGLC [19:17:50] dnssec-trust-anchor ready for WGLC [19:17:55] Lyman Chapin: link works fine for me [19:17:59] Has anybody read it? 5ish pppl [19:18:04] yes [19:18:18] Not all LCs will be issued at the same time. They'll be queued. [19:18:39] resolver-priming. Interesting feedback in Dublin, but the authors didn't managed to incorporate. Work in progress. [19:18:47] resolver-priming, work in progress still [19:18:52] new version to come [19:19:13] name-server-management-reqs: [19:19:15] name-server-managements-requirements [19:19:36] Hardaker: Very few comments since Dublin. That means it is ready for LC? [19:19:38] Suzanne leaves the room [19:19:42] Wes asserts that the document is perfect. [19:20:12] Hardaker: need to wrap it up [19:20:23] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:20:24] Anybody read it in version -01? Like 5-ish [19:20:29] Hardaker: as other work waiting on it [19:20:41] PaulWouters joins the room [19:20:44] is it ready for last call? [19:20:54] No disagreement from the room for the LC [19:21:10] Agenda topic number 5! [19:21:18] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: Current & New Topics [19:21:20] CURRENT AND NEW TOPCIS [19:21:38] dnsop-missing-mname had a presentation in Dublin [19:21:48] No discussion on the list. Stalled. Comemnts? [19:22:03] dblacka leaves the room [19:22:03] Matt Larson leaves the room [19:22:10] dblacka joins the room [19:22:10] Matt Larson joins the room [19:22:11] SRA: not much dicussion due to kaminsky [19:22:28] SRA: still a open problem [19:22:33] Rob recollects that the ppl were interested in the problem, not necessarily in the proposed solution [19:22:34] from dublin [19:22:43] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [19:22:49] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [19:23:03] Peter suggest adoption of the doc [19:23:21] No objections from the room [19:23:23] onakayu leaves the room [19:23:29] Root operators in the room with particular opinions? [19:23:47] at a later time once we have cleared the otherthings off the plate [19:24:04] I concur [19:24:04] J. Ihren: Not really. It falls in the category of crap (no the doc, but the DNS traffic) [19:24:13] change . in MNAME to local. ? [19:24:23] Robert, to the mic? [19:24:26] pause for later [19:24:30] I can take it to the list. [19:24:42] (since it's stalled anyway) [19:24:42] next: review of RFC 4641 [19:25:07] issues that popped up during the review of the DNSSEC proposal for .ORG [19:25:55] Olaf K.: work so far: they took 4641 and put it in draft form, no text changes except errata [19:26:05] olof: status put it in draft format, in subesion -> 00.txt [19:26:16] there was also one possible issue that did not come from rstep [19:26:31] or rather a proposed addition [19:26:49] s/subesion/subversion/ [19:26:52] expect draft by SF [19:26:53] PK: audience you would like a review from? [19:27:24] Olaf: issues Key algorithm rollover, discussion of timescale... specific text needed from the person who mentioned the issues [19:27:40] Doug Otis joins the room [19:27:41] Peter: need to also talk to SEC folks [19:28:06] Rob: The person was the Security D [19:28:14] A schism in the Security Directorate! [19:28:32] Text ist awaited from him [19:28:35] Olaf: request's text to be sent [19:28:46] PK: More remarks welcome on the list! [19:28:48] who'da thunk it? [19:29:04] disagreement in the security world? it cannot be! [19:29:27] Olaf: Things that are MISSING in the doc are specially welcome [19:29:30] more followup requested [19:29:41] is anything missing? [19:29:57] he mentioned key alg rollover. anyone know details of what he was referring to? [19:30:03] Next doc: dns-cookie-validate and subtld-structure [19:30:04] dns issues w/ http cookies [19:30:40] Proposal to have a registry/algorithm to declare certain domains to be registry-like [19:31:05] weiler: http://www.internetdagarna.se/images/stories/doc/13_DNSSEC_Key_maintenance.pdf, section 6 [19:31:09] e.g. UK-TLD registers under the 2nd level (*.co.uk). Thus "co.uk" is registry-like [19:31:27] dnssec.org is a example [19:31:30] Rob: this is not a DNS-issue per se [19:31:42] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:31:49] Rob: they are trying to work around a problem in the cookie specification through DNS [19:31:54] PaulWouters joins the room [19:32:05] Not only Cookies [19:32:48] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [19:32:54] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [19:33:13] anti-spoofing issues [19:33:31] liman leaves the room: Computer went to sleep [19:33:41] vendor now maintains the list [19:33:51] info source unspecified [19:33:59] In a website from Firefox [19:34:13] is a possible source [19:34:19] 'crowd-sourced' database [19:34:43] MG joins the room [19:35:10] Pettersen's preference would be for each TLD make their own information available to the rest (through DNS) [19:35:43] Andrew Sullivina at mic [19:35:46] A. Sullivan: I don't 100% agree with the statement "this is not a DNS prob" [19:35:59] AS: properties about domain names [19:36:00] Suzanne joins the room [19:36:11] Does this effectively allow a second level domain to disavow responsibility for what happens in its subdomains? [19:36:11] multiple properties about domain name [19:36:11] John Schnizlein joins the room [19:36:46] delegation centric not "tld like" [19:37:03] let's propose the new apex rr again :) [19:37:10] Rob: this is a agains a design goal of dns [19:37:32] s/agains/against/ [19:37:35] Rob: there might be that some applications would like to tag organizational boundaries in DNS [19:37:51] Rob: define what kind of boundaries and think of the best mechanism to do it [19:37:58] Rob: this could be a common problem [19:38:03] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:38:11] PaulWouters joins the room [19:38:16] AS: I would feel better if that problem would be better defined and work on that [19:38:19] Andrew: we need to come up w/ a problem statement [19:38:35] It is a common problem, we were looking for a solution for DKIM as well. [19:38:36] Andrew: looks like adhoc work at present [19:38:41] is it still operational work then? [19:38:43] Pettersen: this was the best solution I could come up within the context [19:38:59] Eric BW: same problem in DKIM [19:39:00] Williams: at mike [19:39:22] simon joins the room [19:39:23] The problem statement is clearly DNSOP work. [19:39:29] Heard him clearly in my ears. [19:39:38] Peter's mike is sometimes not working so well [19:39:40] Peter: some work to do [19:39:40] i can hear pretty good [19:39:42] current speaker is breking up [19:39:51] ok, as i said that [19:39:51] Peter to frame the problem [19:40:21] PK: "domain" and "organization" are used as interchangeable terms, which is questionable [19:40:30] Peter: domain and organisation often used interchanably [19:40:48] PK: how to move on? [19:40:57] Peter: real world problem [19:41:00] roque joins the room [19:41:02] I wonder if it's dangerous to try to represent organizational bound without a syntax that shows it. [19:41:13] pk: what do you think about a small design group to come up with a problem statement? [19:41:47] correction, i didn't say "DKIM", i said w3c p3p with "well known location", but more generally, trying to put policy on cookies [19:41:54] jaap leaves the room [19:42:00] Sorry, Eric [19:42:08] I confused what I heard with what I read [19:42:18] Show of hands for ppl to voluntarily work on this [19:42:44] Jaap Akkerhuis joins the room [19:42:55] need to keep Microsoft and Mozilla informed about what's going on [19:43:00] Jelte, Patrick WÑallstrom, Eric BW, A.Sullivan [19:43:03] Lisa joins the room [19:43:04] volunteered [19:43:06] becarpenter joins the room [19:43:09] he said he was not going to take names! :p [19:43:18] He lied [19:43:25] No WG chair will never not take names [19:43:28] Jaap Akkerhuis leaves the room [19:43:40] oops, s/never/ever [19:43:56] they used to not take names. :-) [19:44:12] people used to do review without being cornered, too :P [19:44:13] "Don't make me take names...." But we did and now they do. [19:44:13] Marcos: file an appeal :-) [19:44:14] Reminder about cookie problem [19:44:14] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:44:20] PaulWouters joins the room [19:44:30] Pettersen: I have a real problem here and I have written also a draft that fixes the problem within the cookie world and outside DNS, FYI [19:44:52] Next doc: renum-needs-work [19:45:12] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: Current & New Topics (renumbering) [19:45:30] dblacka leaves the room [19:45:36] dblacka joins the room [19:45:45] @ogud: I will file against ppl that suggest that I am prone to file appeals [19:45:54] :-P [19:45:55] mike doesnt work [19:46:12] on and off again [19:46:33] no [19:46:44] jaap joins the room [19:46:45] can you hear him now? [19:46:49] ok [19:46:51] better [19:46:55] (he's not holding the mic close enough....) [19:47:36] slider#2 [19:47:37] slides under http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/dnsop-1.pdf [19:48:13] that only took one year to come to this statement :p [19:48:33] slide #3 [19:48:37] jaap leaves the room [19:48:49] jaap joins the room [19:49:13] slide #4 [19:50:05] jad joins the room [19:50:06] slide #5 [19:50:20] [19:50:33] How many read? That is 3 or 4 ppl [19:50:45] Any comments? [19:51:10] Steve Croker at mic [19:51:26] Steve Crocker: he thought about the issue a couple of years ago [19:51:31] renumber is good and useful [19:51:41] need to force issue to make things work [19:52:04] SC: happy to share his outcome [19:53:02] Mark, you know what? You type here yourself what you said at the mic when you are back :-) [19:53:40] :) [19:53:41] tcp for auth in reverse name space [19:53:58] PK: This is worth to read. Couple of volunteers found. No names will be written down. [19:54:00] deprecated address signaling in dns [19:54:20] reverse name space needs to be discussed [19:54:33] did Peter really jsut say "IPv6 doesn't hurt"? [19:54:46] Next doc: behave-dns64, presented by A. Sullivan proxying Bagnulo [19:54:55] i'm gonna make that my ringtonen [19:54:56] Andrew Sullivan pres [19:55:09] Doug Otis leaves the room [19:55:11] Slides under http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/08nov/slides/dnsop-2.ppt [19:55:18] arifumi leaves the room [19:55:27] Doug Otis joins the room [19:55:43] Same slides than at dnsext, looks to me [19:55:58] 20ish ppl have followed this discussion so far [19:55:59] +1 [19:56:08] abelyang joins the room [19:56:14] [19:56:15] "DNSS Support" slide [19:56:23] DNSSEC Support [19:56:33] DNSSEC is "nice"? [19:56:39] don't want to throw away dnssec [19:57:29] easy deployment senario - recusive validates, stubs listen [19:57:32] We are directly in slide 19 [19:57:58] Slide #20 now [19:58:16] v6 site -> v4 net is the real problem area [19:58:21] aalain leaves the room [19:58:52] PaulWouters leaves the room [19:58:55] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [19:58:56] Sam W: What is dthe difference between Rsav and Rsan? [19:59:01] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [19:59:21] AS: It looks like a mistake. Rsan should read "non-Validating security-aware" [19:59:22] Rsan; NON-validatin [19:59:30] benno joins the room [19:59:32] PaulWouters joins the room [19:59:37] dblacka leaves the room [19:59:41] Matt Larson leaves the room [19:59:44] dblacka joins the room [19:59:49] Matt Larson joins the room [19:59:54] SW at the mic: What is the difference between RSA and RSAN then?! [20:00:08] slide needs work :) [20:00:21] Let's move to slide 21, it wil make everything much more clear - promises the speaker [20:01:01] arifumi joins the room [20:01:05] DO=0 CD=0 do what you want [20:01:16] Note that the DO and CD bits are not secured :) [20:01:26] DO=1 CD=0 trikey problem [20:01:48] they are w/ TSIG [20:01:54] Sure, with TSIG. [20:02:06] eric.brunner leaves the room [20:02:06] bje leaves the room [20:02:33] But that implies we need to secure the local transaction even when we aren't secure to detect when we will be. [20:03:36] AS wants feedback about the corner/degenerate cases [20:04:04] Rob: difficult to follow. you probably won't get an answer today. [20:04:27] Mark: have you thought about EDNS options in your draft to pass info? [20:05:10] AS: lots of possibilities to do it, nobody is sure how to do it. DHCP option is not used, becuase don't know how to secure that channel [20:05:14] 802.1x [20:05:39] switches have been able to filter sources of dhcp packets for years. [20:05:50] Mark: is a real problem an unsecured EDNS options? [20:06:14] Matt Larson leaves the room [20:06:42] AS: This translation case is very strongly needed. We need some magic thing. [20:07:03] Steve C. confirms AS statement of need [20:07:08] Doug Otis leaves the room [20:07:28] PK: Basic discussion of translation needed or not should happen in BEHAVE wg, not here [20:07:34] Doug Otis joins the room [20:07:39] PK: This doc will be in their agenda as well [20:07:42] arifumi leaves the room [20:07:43] arifumi joins the room [20:07:49] PK: We should focus on the particular DNS aspects of the proposal [20:08:27] jaap leaves the room [20:08:52] PK: This work is being mentioned here to make ppl with dnsop operation background to be aware of it [20:09:27] Ed Lewis: [20:09:33] more discussion may follow up in dnsext/namedroppers [20:09:43] explains parallelities of this with the DNAME/CNAME mechanism [20:10:29] rob is right [20:11:08] benno leaves the room [20:11:30] the hourglass is becoming obese. [20:11:37] may need to add NSEC as well as EDNS option [20:11:59] Steve Crocker leaves the room [20:11:59] Steve Crocker joins the room [20:12:59] Weiler: a pear-shaped hourglass? [20:13:09] Olaf: Concern about using EDNS options for non-DNS control plane [20:13:12] benno joins the room [20:13:27] "a matrix of consenting adults"? [20:13:30] Olaf: fproposal to make a "Matrix Of Consenting Adults" [20:13:36] aka MOCA [20:13:46] blue pill? [20:14:02] reminder about behave [20:14:15] And remember: behave [20:14:25] Next Agenda Issue: other non-WG IDs [20:14:39] dnsop-nameserver-control [20:14:41] wow: we're running on time. [20:14:47] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: Other Non wg drafts [20:15:07] benno leaves the room [20:15:18] No question to adopt this doc until the reqs doc is finished [20:15:21] jad leaves the room [20:15:25] benno joins the room [20:15:31] Roy Arends: at mike [20:15:42] Roy Arends: Topic caught me by surprise [20:15:46] Roy is one of the editors. [20:16:06] At the beginning there was ns-nscp [20:16:15] background to draft [20:16:47] please sent comments request -01 for SF [20:16:47] jad joins the room [20:16:51] Invitation for anyone interested to come to the editors [20:16:55] arifumi leaves the room [20:16:56] arifumi joins the room [20:17:17] RA: We (Nominet) have an implementation of what this draft specifies [20:17:18] implementation exists [20:17:37] Next Agenda Issue: IO with other WGs [20:17:47] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: In and Out of Other WGs [20:18:05] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [20:18:06] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: In and Outwithf Other WGs [20:18:12] Andrew Sullivan joins the room [20:18:16] Request to review forgery resilience debate [20:18:18] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: In and Out with Other WGs [20:18:32] PaulWouters leaves the room [20:18:35] On Monday morning there was a review group of all the proposals for this resilience thing [20:18:53] They were categorized, some of them have severe operational impact [20:18:55] some have sever op impact [20:19:12] PK: Pls check the proposals and try to work out impact [20:19:18] PaulWouters joins the room [20:19:48] Olafur G. (co-chair of dnsext): We need concrete input instead of "something needs to be done" [20:20:12] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: A.O.B. [20:20:17] Next agenda topic: AOB [20:20:17] arifumi leaves the room [20:20:18] arifumi joins the room [20:20:39] Olaf: IAB hat on [20:20:41] Olaf K. [20:21:06] arifumi leaves the room: Replaced by new connection [20:21:06] arifumi joins the room [20:21:07] Note in signing the root message [20:21:09] Olaf points out the IAB answer to NTIAs to sign the root [20:21:21] to IAB web page [20:21:32] It will be put in the webpage [20:21:35] yes i was surprised to see it on -announce [20:21:50] SRA: also ICANN root zone increase [20:21:57] benno leaves the room [20:22:13] front page of icann web page [20:22:20] PK: Any AOB? [20:22:28] marka has set the subject to: DNSOP IETF 73: closed [20:22:31] Ladies and Gentlemen, session is concluded [20:22:36] See you all in Sanfran [20:22:40] jinmei leaves the room [20:22:44] Thanks to the scribe(s) [20:22:44] marka leaves the room [20:22:49] dblacka leaves the room [20:22:49] simon leaves the room [20:22:50] marcos bows at Robert [20:22:52] kivinen leaves the room [20:22:52] shinta leaves the room [20:22:57] abelyang leaves the room [20:22:59] koji leaves the room [20:23:03] becarpenter leaves the room [20:23:05] claudio.marotta leaves the room [20:23:05] matthijs leaves the room [20:23:06] fenton leaves the room [20:23:07] hirocomb12 leaves the room [20:23:17] Suzanne leaves the room [20:23:17] Did you mean the *Jabber* scribe at all? [20:23:20] roque leaves the room [20:23:25] Lisa leaves the room [20:23:29] geoff leaves the room [20:23:32] I did :) [20:23:38] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room [20:23:46] Ah, ok [20:23:54] yone leaves the room [20:24:01] aunque escribiste "ist" una vez en lugar de "is" [20:24:03] markkao leaves the room [20:24:06] :P [20:24:08] wherrin leaves the room [20:24:11] John Schnizlein leaves the room [20:24:28] Influencia del idioma alemán [20:24:34] Ya lo sabes [20:24:38] jad leaves the room [20:24:44] chris_griffiths leaves the room [20:24:47] Si.. 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