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[10:29:33] <wouter> Hi Paul :-)
[10:29:48] <PaulWouters> hey :)
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[11:51:40] <jaap> Morgen meren
[11:51:47] <jaap> s/m/h
[11:51:49] <jakob> god morgon kamrater!
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[11:52:30] <PaulWouters> anyone have a link to the audio feed? I dont see them listed on the meetings page
[11:52:46] <wouter> sure Paul
[11:52:54] <wouter> http://128.223.162.20:8001/ietf705.mp3
[11:52:57] <wouter> is Salon A
[11:53:29] <wouter> Goeiemo^ge/avond
[11:53:37] <Antoin> goedemoggel
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[11:57:42] <wouter> is there a video feed?
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[11:58:10] <Antoin> No, just audio
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[11:59:17] <hta> I recommend http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/70/. It contains both clickable audio feeds and clickable jabber room links.
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[12:01:26] <Antoin> Goodmorning, I will be your jabber scribe for today
[12:01:42] <jakob> thank you antoin!
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[12:01:49] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Also good morning, I'll be the other one :)
[12:02:07] <amarine> thanks from those of us remote! :)
[12:02:29] <Antoin> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07dec/slides/dnsop-0.pdf
[12:02:52] <Antoin> Peter Koch started the meeting
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[12:04:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> bashing agenda now
[12:04:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> if there are comments, please speak up
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[12:04:42] <wouter> audio is down.
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[12:04:54] <keith_oarc> I lost audio too :-(
[12:04:56] <amarine> oh whew, thought i had gone deaf :)
[12:05:02] <jabley> it was up, but then it went down?
[12:05:15] <wouter> correct. went down at 9:03 or so
[12:05:18] <jabley> ugh
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[12:05:23] <keith_oarc> yes - down since a couple mins now
[12:05:28] <jabley> peter is speaking over agenda slide 5
[12:05:33] <Antoin> Peter discussing documents in IESG review
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[12:05:47] <Antoin> I'll try to keep you up where we are...
[12:05:56] <keith_oarc> Thanks scribes !
[12:06:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Currently talking about DISCUSS on 6to4 reverse
[12:06:15] <ajsaf@jabber.org> DISCUSS is supposed to clear by IETF70
[12:06:30] <ajsaf@jabber.org> was based on apparent conflict with what softwires WG was doing
[12:06:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> apparently going to clear RSN
[12:06:51] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Other IESG on reflectors-evil
[12:07:14] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Revisions needed; there's a revised ID out, and we'll turn to it soon
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[12:07:28] <ajsaf@jabber.org> default-local-zones is past WGLC
[12:07:31] --- jabley has left
[12:07:42] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (on slide 6)
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[12:08:01] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Peter's prelim. determination is "rough consensus"
[12:08:10] <stephen.morris> ls
[12:08:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Mark Andrews is at the mic for this
[12:08:47] <ajsaf@jabber.org> the audi isn't much better in the room ATM :(
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[12:08:55] <ajsaf@jabber.org> audio, even, so I can't hear him
[12:09:00] --- kimdw has left: Logged out
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[12:09:20] <Antoin> It's the link that's down, so it's not a local thing
[12:09:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> yeah, I know, I just meant the mic didn't seem to be working.
[12:09:37] <ajsaf@jabber.org> now it is
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[12:10:22] <jaap> volume of mike in room was low as well...
[12:10:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> there are some changes (see the bullets: they're all listed there)
[12:11:00] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Peter asks people to review -03 and -04 diffs
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[12:11:22] <ajsaf@jabber.org> in order to see the changes made as a result of comments in WGLC
[12:11:34] <ajsaf@jabber.org> -04 will be submitted soon
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[12:11:51] <Antoin> Just checked, audio broadcast for all the rooms is down...
[12:12:12] <ajsaf@jabber.org> slide 7
[12:12:19] <Antoin> Next document AS112
[12:12:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> "AS 112" basket awaitinng WGLC
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[12:13:18] <ajsaf@jabber.org> draft editors discussing changes. All minor
[12:13:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> -ops- may go through an -02
[12:13:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> -help-help seems about done
[12:14:03] <ajsaf@jabber.org> [name not heard] question from mic
[12:14:19] <jaap> [Mosen]
[12:14:19] <rhe> Mohsen Suissi (apologies for spelling)
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[12:14:43] <Antoin> Mohsen Souissi
[12:14:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> is it a good idea to make some "dynamic references" to local prefixes
[12:14:57] <ajsaf@jabber.org> rather than listing them specifically (like "AS 112")
[12:15:20] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Joe Abley: discussed in Prague, and it was ruled out of scope for these drafts
[12:15:49] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Mark Andrews notes that default-local-zones does create a registry
[12:16:30] <wouter> audio back up.
[12:16:42] <ajsaf@jabber.org> now -respsize-
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[12:16:51] <ajsaf@jabber.org> revived just before the deadline
[12:16:58] <ajsaf@jabber.org> and that's the reason for the -08
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[12:17:19] <Antoin> http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-08.txt
[12:18:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> apppears that -09 is contemplated
[12:18:45] <ajsaf@jabber.org> to address remaining comments
[12:18:56] <ajsaf@jabber.org> WGLC will wait until after -09
[12:19:02] <ajsaf@jabber.org> please send comments as soon as possible
[12:19:15] <ajsaf@jabber.org> because editors will address comments next week
[12:19:36] <Antoin> http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations-05.txt
[12:19:48] <Antoin> Andrew walking to the mic
[12:20:12] <Antoin> this document is ready for WGLC
[12:20:20] <Antoin> onl;y minor nits
[12:21:01] <Antoin> Any comets ?
[12:21:10] <Antoin> s/comets/coments
[12:21:25] <Antoin> slide 8
[12:21:30] <ajsaf@jabber.org> yes, no comets, please. I can't take that much heat ;-)
[12:21:40] <Antoin> http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-larson-dnsop-trust-anchor-02.txt
[12:21:45] <Antoin> :-)
[12:22:17] <ajsaf@jabber.org> call for readers, support for adoption
[12:22:21] <ajsaf@jabber.org> appears to be adopted
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[12:22:29] <Antoin> votes favour taking this doc as WG doc
[12:22:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> needs some work. Send comments, please
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[12:22:41] <PaulWouters> http://www.xelerance.com/dnssec/ (shameless plug for google map with trust anchors )
[12:23:12] <Antoin> Next: http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming-00.txt
[12:23:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> there will be an -01 of this some time in the future
[12:23:32] <Antoin> Slide 9
[12:23:49] <Antoin> http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt
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[12:24:23] <ajsaf@jabber.org> going through list of issues now
[12:24:24] <Antoin> Going through a list of issues now
[12:24:55] <Antoin> Joao Damas
[12:25:06] <Antoin> Having a presentation, not online
[12:25:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> It's been uploaded just now, it seems
[12:25:17] <ajsaf@jabber.org> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07dec/slides/dnsop-2.pdf
[12:25:37] <bmanning@jabber.org> good thing too.. the font is -very- small
[12:26:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> p. 3 of the presentation has "pre drafts"
[12:26:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> because the updates weren
[12:26:40] <ajsaf@jabber.org> 't done before the cutoff
[12:29:03] <PaulWouters> but then akamaized data will be slow :)
[12:29:27] <ajsaf@jabber.org> request for support for idea of open resolvers to support mobile users
[12:29:45] <ajsaf@jabber.org> so if you think ORNS are needed for mobile users, speak up now
[12:30:35] <bmanning@jabber.org> ORNS for mobility support are roughly the same as home agents for mobility support
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[12:31:05] <ajsaf@jabber.org> bmanning: is that for the mic?
[12:31:15] <jakob> any resolver libraries supporting TSIG to communicate with their home resolver?
[12:31:35] <PaulWouters> doesn't bind?
[12:31:43] <bmanning@jabber.org> SIG(0) maybe
[12:31:57] <jakob> libresolv doesn't I think
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[12:32:07] <PaulWouters> everyone should run their own dnssec resolvers anyway :P
[12:32:15] <bmanning@jabber.org> yes.. :)
[12:32:18] <Antoin> Roy Arends on the mic
[12:33:14] <weiler> how musical
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[12:33:54] <PaulWouters> guess nssec.xelerance.com is "bad" ? :P
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[12:35:23] <Antoin> Bill Manning on the mic
[12:36:03] <weiler> Bill is "concerned with the explicit binary nature of 'open' and 'closed'"
[12:36:32] <ajsaf@jabber.org> loud opposition from room against Bill Manning being King of the World
[12:37:01] <Antoin> Joe Abley on the mic
[12:38:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> distinction between whether open recursive nameservers being necessary for mobile users, and whether it is reasonable
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[12:39:54] <bmanning@jabber.org> /paul - nssec.xelerance.com is unreachable from here...
[12:41:35] <Antoin> Mark Andrews on the mic
[12:43:06] <Antoin> Moshen Souissi on the mic
[12:43:23] <PaulWouters> hotels screw up my dns
[12:43:47] <PaulWouters> i cannot even use BIND to dynamically update my forwarders to use my own resolver via hotel dictated forwarders
[12:44:10] <ajsaf@jabber.org> paulwouters: is that for the mic?
[12:44:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> question from Peter:
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[12:44:58] <ajsaf@jabber.org> is there anyone who thinks that supporting mobility users is sufficient reason not to follow the recommendations already in the draft?
[12:45:00] <mg> I do not see why this matters so much to people when the only reasons I can see is DNSSEC failures and need to resolve internal hosts which might not be externally visable. But to reach those hidden hosts, a VPN is understood and deployable now.
[12:45:17] <ajsaf@jabber.org> alternate approach
[12:45:27] <PaulWouters> asat: nah
[12:45:44] <Antoin> a majority for non support of the objection :-)
[12:45:52] <PaulWouters> mg: VPN's are deployable? :)
[12:45:53] <weiler> any support for it?
[12:46:18] <ajsaf@jabber.org> there appeared to be no support of the DISCUSS
[12:46:30] <ajsaf@jabber.org> some support for mentioning VPN alternative
[12:47:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> any other comments?
[12:47:29] <mg> Most of the windows geeks I know have a VPN to work.
[12:47:38] <mg> It's just us Unix ones that are luckier.
[12:48:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> next action on this draft:
[12:48:34] <ajsaf@jabber.org> shepherding A D has to make sure updates happen
[12:49:02] <Antoin> Back to the agenda: slide 10
[12:49:15] <Antoin> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07dec/slides/dnsop-0.pdf
[12:50:43] <Antoin> Next slide is slide 12 :-)
[12:50:45] <ajsaf@jabber.org> slides are out of oder
[12:50:53] <PaulWouters> mg: More often then not, my l2tp/ipsec based "native" vpn cabapilities of OSX fail due to stupid network admins and bad hotspots
[12:51:06] <Antoin> Jaap Akkerhuis on the mic about the status
[12:51:28] <Antoin> about the requirements for S control and config protocol
[12:51:39] <mg> Chances are the same bad hotspot will capture your DNS traffic too.
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[12:53:50] <Antoin> Steve Morris giving a presentation on NSCP progress
[12:53:54] <Antoin> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07dec/slides/dnsop-1.pdf
[12:54:25] <Antoin> slide 2
[12:54:58] <keith_oarc> audio volume low
[12:55:03] <PaulWouters> yeah
[12:55:24] <weiler> better?
[12:55:29] <PaulWouters> yes
[12:55:32] <keith_oarc> a bit, thanks
[12:55:34] <ray> a bit
[12:55:43] <ajsaf@jabber.org> p 3 on slides
[12:55:46] <Antoin> slide 3
[12:56:05] <weiler> he's holding the microphone 20cm from his mouth, pointed vertically
[12:56:31] <Antoin> slide 4
[12:57:24] <Antoin> 5
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[12:58:34] <Antoin> 6
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[12:59:28] <Antoin> 7
[13:00:05] <Antoin> Any questions for Steve ?
[13:00:14] <Antoin> Alexander Mayerhofer on the mic
[13:00:35] <ajsaf@jabber.org> suggestion to use this to solve the mobile user in hotel problem
[13:00:42] <Antoin> Mohsen Souissi on the mic
[13:01:18] <ajsaf@jabber.org> observation that this is more design than requirements
[13:01:46] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Roy Arends on mic responding
[13:02:09] <ajsaf@jabber.org> noted that this is prior work
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[13:03:20] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Rob Austein at mic hat off
[13:03:51] <ajsaf@jabber.org> unhappy putting zone content into this mechanism
[13:04:48] <Antoin> Kurtis Lindqvist on the mic
[13:06:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Wes Hardaker on mic
[13:07:11] <Antoin> Joe Abley on the mic
[13:07:47] <Antoin> Lars-Johan Liman on the mic
[13:09:47] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Kurtis on mic again
[13:10:16] <Antoin> Next on agenda
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[13:10:31] <Antoin> Peter Koch on DNS search path issues
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[13:13:04] <Antoin> Mark Andrews on the mic
[13:13:33] <Antoin> Saying there are no issues..
[13:14:16] <Antoin> just formalise search patterns
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[13:14:51] <Antoin> No hands on Peters question
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[13:15:05] <Antoin> asking if it's only an API issue
[13:15:31] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Mark has agreed to write a draft for this
[13:16:18] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Now http://tools.ietf.org/html?draft=draft-licanhuang-dnsop-urnresolution-00.txt
[13:16:28] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (slide 11 of agenda)
[13:17:11] <ajsaf@jabber.org> request to make comments on this I-D, but not explicitly requested to adopt yet
[13:17:18] <Antoin> Mohsen Souissi on the mic
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[13:18:32] <ajsaf@jabber.org> now slide 13
[13:18:42] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (we're nearing the end)
[13:19:13] <PaulWouters> I wonder about the AD bit issues found in cheap routers. It is a dnsop issue?
[13:19:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (is the AD bit issue a question for the mic?)
[13:19:48] <jakob> paulw; it's more of dnssec-deployment issue I think
[13:20:31] <Antoin> George Mchelson on the mic
[13:20:32] <PaulWouters> which is not dnsop?
[13:20:54] <jakob> paulw: correct. at least not yet.
[13:21:01] <Antoin> George Michaelson...
[13:23:34] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Olafur Gudmundsson on mic
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[13:25:15] <PaulWouters> I'd be more interested in seeing IETF is talking to vendors of boxes, then writing a draft they'll never see?
[13:25:28] <ajsaf@jabber.org> any immediate comment before chairs decide what to do?
[13:25:41] <ajsaf@jabber.org> paulwouters: is that a comment for mic?
[13:26:13] <PaulWouters> ajsaf: no. guess I'll take jakob's clue and wait for next ietf
[13:26:21] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Ok
[13:26:25] <weiler> if some WG tries to adopt this draft w/o vendor input, that might be a good time to object....
[13:26:26] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Antoin at mic
[13:26:54] <ajsaf@jabber.org> On Excessive DNS Query Traffic
[13:26:58] <ajsaf@jabber.org> needing guidance
[13:28:16] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Shane at mic
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[13:29:41] <Antoin> Lars Liman on the mic
[13:31:08] <keith_oarc> There may be value in gathering data from swamping whois queries, and correlating it with known botnet sources
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[13:32:20] <ajsaf@jabber.org> keith:
[13:32:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> part of the problem is that people put a lot of data into whois, and then for perfectly good policy reasons started trying to protect the whois
[13:33:04] <ajsaf@jabber.org> the people who want the data have therefore naturally gone for the accessible data
[13:33:07] <ajsaf@jabber.org> and that's DNS
[13:34:02] <mg> This sounds like the typical arms race.
[13:34:03] <keith_oarc> DNS is indeed harder to protect using traffic-shaping than whois
[13:34:38] <mg> When there is money to be made by knowing something before others, this will always happen and no chance to fix that.
[13:34:49] <ogud> Just send back "REFUSED" if you think someone is sending back excessive queries
[13:34:50] <ajsaf@jabber.org> mg: yes :(
[13:35:05] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Joe Abley now at mic
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[13:35:23] <ajsaf@jabber.org> general question: is dnsop the place for operations guidelines
[13:35:24] <ajsaf@jabber.org> ?
[13:35:50] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Kurtis Linqvist
[13:35:54] <ajsaf@jabber.org> at mic
[13:36:04] <ajsaf@jabber.org> thinks he just found a co-authior
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[13:36:08] <ajsaf@jabber.org> author, even
[13:36:25] <ajsaf@jabber.org> chairs suggest that operational guidelines in scope
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[13:36:50] <ajsaf@jabber.org> any other comments?
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[13:37:13] <ajsaf@jabber.org> chairs close the meeting
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[13:38:08] <jaap> That was quick
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