[12:26:42] <michaelhammer> Good morning , Kurt
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[12:58:20] Jim Fenton (the other one) has set the subject to: DMARC @ IETF 108: 28 July 2020
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[12:59:16] <Matthias Hudobnik> is there a voice :-)?
[12:59:31] <Seth Blank> in a minute!
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[13:00:39] <Matthias Hudobnik> great
[13:00:43] <Matthias Hudobnik> :-)
[13:01:24] <Tim Wicinski> Comid just spinning for me. will be taking notes elsewhere
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[13:10:00] <Murray Kucherawy> This document breakup isn't a surprise to me; I thought this had been informally suggested and agreed by several people.
[13:10:17] <Tim Wicinski> It has been brought up on the mailing list
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[13:11:40] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> Tim: Well, glad to hear that, but that's not what Seth said. Seems like poor form to announce (as against figure out) the details here.
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[13:14:39] <John (Clone) Levine> We knew they were planning to break it up but not the details.
[13:15:06] <John (Clone) Levine> Keep in mind that all of the docs will be a publishing cluster so none of them will be published until they're all done.
[13:15:12] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> Right. It was the structure of the breakup that I hadn't seen.
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[13:16:18] <michaelhammer> Then what is the point of Author field?
[13:16:25] <Seth Blank> We've provided the three main buckets to the list on a couple of occasions. The sub-bullets on the slide were not presented concisely before. Apologies for the miscommunication.
[13:18:57] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> Seth/Alexey: it would be helpful for you to announce people as you accept them from the queue.
[13:19:07] <Amelia Andersdotter> +1
[13:20:14] <michaelhammer> +1
[13:21:16] <Murray Kucherawy> +1
[13:21:51] <Murray Kucherawy> X-X-, wow
[13:21:58] <Seth Blank> Acknowledged
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[13:23:12] <John (Clone) Levine> should be called Really-From, then we can have Really-Really-From, ...
[13:23:24] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> dramatically more?
[13:23:59] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> :-D
[13:24:14] <Murray Kucherawy> Is this what we're doing instead of t-shirts for 108?
[13:24:43] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> I'd rather have a t-shirt than a new header field.
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[13:24:53] <msk> Oh yeah, the jabber
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[13:25:15] <Ned Freed> In regards to [X-]1*Sender,  think we're putting a lot of faith in a single anecdote.
[13:25:23] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> +1 to Levine.
[13:25:44] <Ned Freed> A lot has changed since Eudora was the client of choice.
[13:26:03] <Tim Wicinski> One note -  meetecho ends immediately.
[13:26:03] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Ned: Gads, I hope so. ;-)
[13:26:23] <Meetecho> We don't close sessions abruptly
[13:27:04] <Ned Freed> Well, if that's the case, then I'm not sure the confidence that "this will for sure happen again" is warranted.
[13:28:00] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> Spammers will also attack the friendly part of the From field, but apparently that's out of scope.
[13:28:24] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> I'm less confident than John L, but given the motivations of DMARC ("we must verify From because that's what's shown to the user"), anything that intends to show something to the user has a high likelihood of suffering the same fate.
[13:28:50] <Ned Freed> It's like saying we could, say, make a radical change in DSN formats, confident that the changes will deploy the same way original DSN support did.
[13:29:18] <michaelhammer> +1 Ned Freed
[13:29:24] <Ned Freed> When the reality is that was a fluke: A serious sendmail bug had to be fixed and the DSN support went along for the ride.
[13:30:06] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> @Pete Agree, but there isn't agreement in the WG that "what's shown to the user" is really what's important
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[13:30:50] <Ned Freed> Except that's false. The From: address isn't shown to the user by many/most MUAs. That makes the odd focus on verification of the From: field mostly a fluke as well.
[13:30:51] <brong> there's "what's shown to the user by default" and "what can be easily shown to the user as extended data" - not losing the original sender in the clean path is good
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[13:32:22] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> @Ned, True, and more MUAs are just displaying the friendly part.
[13:33:01] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Ned @Jim: I absolutely agree that the From being shown to the user is not a reasonable basis for needing alignment. I'm simply saying that it is the (misguided) motivation of the people who think you need From alignment.
[13:33:20] <brong> we display the friendly part from your addressbook if the sender matches the addressbook and the email is authenticated
[13:33:36] <michaelhammer> Ned, when we originally wrote DMARC we had two choices, From or Mail From. From was chosen to align on because it MIGHT potentially be useful in MUAs. We could just as easily used Mail From.
[13:33:36] <Ned Freed> @Jim - and as you point out, there's no obvious push to validate what's known to be shown. So we have a contradictory anecdote right in front of us.
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[13:33:53] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> @brong I wish more MUAs did more with addressbook to check the friendly name
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[13:35:40] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Ned - The posts on the list show the push to validate what's shown. I think Jim and I are both saying that they're misguided.
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[13:36:33] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> (Not to speak for Jim)
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[13:37:25] <Jim Fenton (the other one)> @Pete no problem
[13:38:00] <Dave Crocker> @pete, "the motivations of DMARC ("we must verify From because that's what's shown to the user")" is not the motivation for DMARC.
[13:38:02] <Ned Freed> Uh... posts on a list are cheap. The point of your anecdotal evidence that this will fail is that people actually went ahead and *did* something.
[13:38:20] <michaelhammer> Dave's comments about not making resolution of conflicts is one of the reasons I'm not in favor of his Sender proposal. DMARC provides a reasonable expectation of disposition other than local policy override with feedback provided through AUF reporting.
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[13:39:12] <Ned Freed> Look, I don't have a crystal ball here. It could play out exactly as you fear. But I don't think your evidence that it will is even a tenth as strong as you seem to think.
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[13:42:06] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> Maybe I've gotten overly worried in my old age and you've gotten more circumspect. But I remain worried.
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[13:42:29] <Dave Crocker> DMARC chose the From field because it is the only part of the message content that contains a domain name and is required to be present.
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[13:45:00] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Dave: I was not around for the history of it, but there are several people on the list who have expressed disagreement with that claim.
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[13:45:40] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> If that were true, then it was just a minor (though terribly consequential) error to not have done what your -sender document says to do.
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[13:46:11] <brong> 5 minutes left!
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[13:47:45] <John (Clone) Levine> Agree with Mike, even if the result is it won't work the details could be interesting
[13:48:22] <Ned Freed> What I've gotten is less confident that our shared past is a useful means of predicting the future. If you had asked me a few years ago if DMARC would be allowed to cause the huge damage it has caused, I would have laughed.
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[13:48:56] <Tim Wicinski> Lewt's take it to the list
[13:49:07] <michaelhammer> I'd still like to see my proposal for the from domain to seperately sign a header with the known intermediary domain such as an MLM.
[13:49:15] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Ned, on that we fully agree.
[13:49:20] <brong> Thanks Seth
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[13:49:24] <Ned Freed> @Dave/@Pete - in regards to the history, does it really matter how DMARC arrived at the From: field?
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[13:49:27] <Autumn Tyr-Salvia> Thank you all.
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[13:49:46] <Steven Jones> See you on the list then.
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[13:49:51] <Ned Freed> OK.
[13:49:53] <michaelhammer> @Ned, it is useful information.
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[13:50:03] <Dave Crocker> @Pete, there have always been people pushing this belief that 'protecting' the From: field will somehow improve end user behavior.  Operational evidence is to the contrary.
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[13:50:05] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Ned - Only insofar as it's now influencing people's willingness to change to something like -sender.
[13:50:17] <Dave Crocker> /// back to the mailing list ///
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[13:50:22] <Pete Resnick (the other one)> @Dave - Totally agree.
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[13:50:32] <Seth Blank> Thanks again Dave and Murray for discussing your drafts
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