IETF
dmarc@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 30, 2013< ^ >
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[13:18:31] <Kurt Andersen> jones v2: I guess this is the right venue for the dmarc meeting, but the audio streaming makes it sound like lunch time
[13:18:59] <Trent Adams> It's break time
[13:19:11] <Kurt Andersen> Thanks Trent
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[13:19:32] <Kurt Andersen> do you expect the meeting to start soon? meetecho is not up yet
[13:20:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> we're starting meetecho right now
[13:20:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> it should be up any minute
[13:20:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> no sign of the chairs yet, though
[13:20:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> the previous session (v6ops) ended late
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[13:23:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> the meeting is starting
[13:23:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> meetecho is up and running, if you need it to attend remotely
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[13:23:39] <Trent Adams> Russ (Chair) is at the stage now
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[13:23:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/dmarc
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[13:24:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DMARC    
 BOF    
 -­‐    
 Agenda    
 
[13:24:53] John Klensin joins the room
[13:25:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[13:25:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DMARC    
 Overview    
 
[13:25:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Murray Kucherawy
[13:25:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DMARC    
 Overview    
 
[13:26:11] Greg Colburn joins the room
[13:26:16] <Tim Draegen> audio good
[13:26:27] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[13:26:35] <Kurt Andersen> Lorenzo: audio is good, but is there a way to see the slides in the meetecho session?
[13:26:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: History    
 
[13:26:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: History    
 
[13:26:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Kurt, in the meetecho interface you can watch them in the slides tab
[13:27:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> you may still have the audio/video one active
[13:28:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Overview    
 
[13:29:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Policy    
 Component    
 
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[13:31:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Policy    
 Component    
 
[13:31:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Why    
 DKIM    
 and    
 SPF?    
 
[13:31:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: ReporLng    
 Component    
 
[13:32:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Subdomains    
 
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[13:33:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Subdomains    
 
[13:33:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: ImplementaLon    
 
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[13:35:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[13:35:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DMARC    
 BOF    
 
[13:35:37] Greg Colburn joins the room
[13:35:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Proposed Technical Work
[13:35:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: J. Trent Adams
[13:35:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DMARC    
 BOF    
 
[13:35:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DMARC    
 BOF    
 –    
 Tech    
 Topic
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[13:37:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Tech    
 Topics    
 –    
 Display    
 
[13:37:53] Barry Leiba joins the room
[13:39:43] <Barry Leiba> I presume we have some remote participants here, yes?
[13:39:53] <rolf.sonneveld> Yep
[13:39:55] <smjones> Yes sir!
[13:39:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Tech    
 Topics    
 –    
 Mailing    
 
[13:40:13] <John Kelley> Yes
[13:40:18] <Tim Draegen> ah yup
[13:40:19] <Kurt Andersen> yes - remote
[13:40:32] <Greg Colburn> Yes, more remote here.
[13:40:33] <Barry Leiba> Great; quite a batch of you.  Thanks for coming.
[13:40:35] <smjones> Will be forced to drop at :15 after, however.
[13:40:45] <John Klensin> yes
[13:40:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Tech    
 Topics    
 –    
 Report    
 T
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[13:42:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Tech    
 Topics    
 –    
 Organiza:ona
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[13:43:32] <msk> audio ok?
[13:43:36] =JeffH joins the room
[13:43:42] <rolf.sonneveld> audio is ok here
[13:43:42] <Kurt Andersen> audio is fine
[13:43:42] <Greg Colburn> yes, audio and video are great
[13:43:45] <SM> Yes, it soudns fine
[13:43:45] <John Kelley> I can hear it fine, Murray
[13:43:54] <msk> thanks
[13:44:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: QuesJons?    
 
[13:45:15] <Junping Chen> audio is fine here(China) too
[13:45:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Tech    
 Topics    
 –    
 Report    
 T
[13:46:27] <msk> john levine: HTTP reports as specified are broken, but it's an easy fix
[13:47:28] <Franck Martin> is this Doug on mic?
[13:47:31] <msk> yes
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[13:47:48] <msk> doug: DMARC should look at Subject fields, and should consider what ATPS did as well
[13:47:58] <smjones> Doug's coming through 5x5 here on audio.
[13:48:02] <=JeffH> did he mean ADSP ?
[13:48:19] <=JeffH> i guess not
[13:48:21] <msk> jeffh: no, ATPS was an experimental third-party signature support extension to DKIM
[13:48:22] <msk> experimental
[13:48:23] <Kurt Andersen> I don't see why the scope of DMARC should be expanded - it sounds like he wants to cover all of the malformed mail draft
[13:48:24] <msk> one sec
[13:48:43] <dcrocker> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kucherawy-dkim-atps-16
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[13:48:52] <msk> jeffh: RFC6541
[13:48:57] <=JeffH> k thx
[13:49:17] <Franck Martin> the purpose is not to redact emails, but to define if the email comes from where it tries to purportray it
[13:49:19] <dcrocker> (not saying he meant that draft rather than adsp, merely that he might have.)
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[13:50:42] <Kurt Andersen> +1 to Murray's comments about not expanding to cover other fields
[13:51:04] <msk> jabber room: If you want me to go to the mic with your comments, please say "Mic:" up front
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[13:51:16] <Tim Draegen> what was the whispered transport mechanism?
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[13:52:00] <msk> "ipfix"?  I didn't hear it.
[13:52:01] <Kurt Andersen> Tim: sounded to me like "ipfix"
[13:52:02] <John Klensin> "awesome" would be a slight exaggeration.
[13:52:27] <msk> sorry john, very tired :)
[13:52:56] <John Klensin> No problem.
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[13:53:09] <Kurt Andersen> Pete: it's falling back to "more eyes"
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[13:54:10] <John Klensin> I just feel a need to keep flagging places where these thing can come back to bite us.  The current discussion/comment is just right.
[13:54:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[13:54:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Using DMARC
[13:54:54] <John Klensin> I could tell too... at much more length :-)
[13:55:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Dave Crocker
[13:55:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Using DMARC
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[13:56:36] <smjones> Who's speaking please?
[13:56:40] <pandalove> a little bit late... actually we(Netease) have implemented http reporting as well as email reporting...but it looks like not that many Senders'  DMARC DNS record designate a HTTP method
[13:56:43] <msk> that was doug
[13:56:45] <smjones> Ah, ty.
[13:56:50] <msk> and another person whose name I don't know
[13:57:02] <Franck Martin> before doug, the bearded man
[13:57:18] <smjones> Franck: Clearly a unique identifier, thanks!
[13:57:21] <msk> yeah, i didn't catch his name
[13:57:26] <Trent Adams> Joel Snyder
[13:57:28] <smjones> :)
[13:57:30] <msk> thanks
[13:57:35] <Franck Martin> before doug it was Joel Snyder
[13:58:10] <Kurt Andersen> Trent: can you confirm that the additional suggested transport was referred to as "ipfix"?
[13:58:12] <Trent Adams> Pandalove: Thanks!
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[13:58:31] <Trent Adams> Kurt, missed it, but we can check the record afterward.
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[13:59:13] <Trent Adams> All - If you are in the Jabber room and want to say something in the room, prepend your statement with MIC:
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[13:59:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Overview 2-3
[13:59:26] <Trent Adams> Someone in the room will read your comment.
[13:59:30] <msk> IPFIX: RFC5101
[13:59:41] <Kurt Andersen> msk: thanks
[13:59:56] <Trent Adams> Junping: Do you want us to read into the room the fact that you're running HTTP reporting?
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[14:02:37] <mhammer> I think what Dave means when he says average is where you have numbers of enduser accounts rather than role accounts.
[14:02:46] <Junping Chen> Trent:sure please, as I could not find a MIC around...
[14:03:12] <Trent Adams> Junping: No worries, someone will queue at the mic for you.
[14:03:59] <msk> i have something else for the mic too, if there's an opportunity i'll do both
[14:04:10] <smjones> +1 to mhammer's clarification - "average" can have a very local scope.
[14:04:15] <Trent Adams> MSK: Thanks
[14:04:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Overview 4-5
[14:05:19] =JeffH leaves the room
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[14:05:51] <Tim Draegen> There is a big need for BCP type of document in the wild
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[14:06:11] <Andrew Sullivan> I confess I'm having a hard time understanding why this is a BoF.  So far, I've heard rather little evidence of obvious problems that need IETF attention.  What is the problem we're trying to solve here?
[14:06:27] <Andrew Sullivan> (Note: I'm asking that partly with my IAB hat on, because I need to make a report.)
[14:06:40] <Barry Leiba> Andrew: Please say that on the mic when the time comes.
[14:06:51] <msk> are you in the room, ajs?
[14:07:10] <Andrew Sullivan> I was planning to, but I thought if someone responded here, "Andrew, you ignorant slut," I'd know I'm missing something.  msk: yes.
[14:07:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Overview 6-7
[14:07:17] <=JeffH> hey andrew, it appears there's a few specs to write
[14:07:22] <Kurt Andersen> mic: Even in the case where you have "average" end user accounts, DMARC can still be of value by providing telemetry regarding mail streams and not asserting a policy action
[14:07:41] <msk> ajs: you should still ask, but that was the stuff trent went over, plus the suggestion of i18n
[14:07:59] <=JeffH> what msk said
[14:08:00] <=JeffH> :)
[14:08:02] <Trent Adams> Andrew: In case you missed it, there were a few items listed earlier before Dave took the mic (or are you including what I went over)?
[14:08:16] <mhammer> I have something for the Mic: Michael Hammer supports a working group working on the DMARC BCP.
[14:08:30] <msk> we'll record that during the hums, mhammer
[14:08:31] <Andrew Sullivan> I saw all that.  But the basic spec was already worked out outside the IETF.  What's special here?  I don't get it exactly.
[14:08:35] <mhammer> ack
[14:08:48] <Franck Martin> there is not much issue with ascii@idn cause there is a bi-directional function for the domain name
[14:09:16] <Franck Martin> and mta have been handling it in ages, and does not change the way dmarc works
[14:09:24] <Andrew Sullivan> I guess maybe the i18n case (EAI)?  The organizational domain stuff, perhaps
[14:09:39] <Andrew Sullivan> anyway, I'll ask at the mic
[14:10:03] <Kurt Andersen> Andrew: most of the work is around a community reviewed/expanded BCP
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[14:10:59] <msk> i wouldn't say "most".  there's all the technical stuff trent mentioned.
[14:11:01] <Franck Martin> Andrew, I caught it in last call to barry's EAI draft
[14:11:06] <mhammer> I prefer the term "local policy".
[14:11:36] <Franck Martin> so putting some recommendation on EAI in this BCP will be very useful
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[14:12:16] <Kurt Andersen> msk: fair point regarding the topics Trent raised, even if I don't share all of his optimism regarding the likelihood of getting suitable solutions :-)
[14:12:24] <John Klensin> Just lost video - both the slides and Dave pacing the floor
[14:12:34] <msk> dave has stopped pacing
[14:13:18] <John Klensin> Good to know - still no picture.
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[14:14:18] <Franck Martin> and EAI said don't use group syntax unless you have to...
[14:14:24] <=JeffH> msk will relay @mic?
[14:14:35] <msk> i will, i have a queue going
[14:14:42] <msk> but they're not specific to what dave is saying
[14:14:54] <Franck Martin> IEA in fact... bloody TLAs...
[14:15:17] =JeffH just checkin'.....
[14:15:20] <smjones> xs4all.nl and mail.ru have implemented at least aggregate reporting
[14:15:26] <Kurt Andersen> IEA makes more sense, unless it was acronymized like UTC was :-)
[14:15:33] <Barry Leiba> Basically, DMARC is saying that you use the From field to figure out where to send your DMARC query.  If the From field is such that you can't make sense out of it, then you should reject the message, or else skip DMARC processing.
[14:16:18] <John Klensin> Mic: I just don't see how the IETF can consider adopting any email related spec unless it carefully considers and discusses EAI-related issues.
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[14:18:01] <rolf.sonneveld> mic: is DMARC overriding RFC5322 by not allowing group syntax?
[14:18:36] <Barry Leiba> JCK: That's certainly input for the handling of the base spec.  Or do you think it would be OK to publish the base spec and then consider EAI issues as follow-on?
[14:18:39] <Kurt Andersen> the video came back with Trent on the stage - but it seems like the slide deck reverted to msk's slides
[14:18:51] <msk> DMARC BOF is on the title slide
[14:18:54] <msk> that's not my deck
[14:18:55] <Barry Leiba> Rolf, I don't think that's a question for the BoF.
[14:18:58] <mhammer> Risk of minor DDOS for aggregate but there are easier ways to do a DDOS. for RUF reports then yes.
[14:19:11] <Kurt Andersen> on meetecho, the "DMARC Overview" slide is showing
[14:19:22] <Barry Leiba> Rolf, you should make your comment on the DMARC mailing list, for consideration in handling the base spec.
[14:19:23] <Kurt Andersen> ah, just disappeared
[14:19:25] <msk> ah, they have the wrong deck up
[14:19:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> fixed that, sorry :)
[14:19:27] <Tim Draegen> not DoS in a network-disruption sense -- perhaps mailbox disruption
[14:19:29] <msk> cool
[14:19:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> I lost my connectivity before
[14:19:36] <Kurt Andersen> thanks Lorenzo
[14:19:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: DMARC    
 BOF    
 
[14:19:46] <John Klensin> Barry, my experience is that "add i18n later" (including "consider EAI issues later") is precisely as good an idea as "add security later"
[14:19:49] <msk> lorenzo: did you guys get your laptop back? :(
[14:19:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DMARC    
 BOF    
 –    
 Proposed    
 C
[14:19:52] <mhammer> I'm thinking mail system rather than jsut mailbox.
[14:20:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> nope :(
[14:20:07] <Barry Leiba> JCK: OK, then make the comment on the DMARC mailing list, please.
[14:20:27] <John Klensin> Barry, let's discuss this offline.
[14:20:31] <Barry Leiba> ok
[14:20:49] <rolf.sonneveld> Barry, OK, will post to the list
[14:21:36] <=JeffH> http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/trac/wiki/DMARC
[14:22:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: DMARC    
 BOF    
 –    
 Proposed    
 C
[14:22:21] <smjones> Barry: I have to drop and dock my boat, but I support the BCP/WG proposal. steven.m.jones@[gmail.com|bankofamerica.com]
[14:22:28] <Franck Martin> John: the EAI has been considered and is in the spec
[14:22:44] smjones leaves the room
[14:22:55] <msk> steveworldproblems
[14:23:11] <Tim Draegen> ^boat^yacht
[14:23:27] <Kurt Andersen> s/yacht/AC72/
[14:23:34] <dcrocker> "add i8n later" is a mischaracterization of the current situation.  The document touches on the topic.  If someone feels that there are internationalization details handled incorrectly or incompletely, they need to provide specific criticisms (and preferably specific suggestions for fixing it.)
[14:24:45] <john.levine> has anyone tried DMARC on EAI mail?
[14:25:29] <john.levine> are EAI addresses allowed as reporting addresses?
[14:25:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: QuesQons?    
 
[14:25:37] <Franck Martin> John: remember, I followed (late) your work on EAI and we got to discuss it and put it in spec... tho I'm not an expert but Dave and Murray better handle all the moving bits...
[14:25:55] <Franck Martin> john.levine: yeah, I reject group syntax as per spec :P
[14:26:38] <John Klensin> See  John L.'s questions for examples of what I'm concerned about... and then add it the dreaded "matching" questons.
[14:26:44] <Kurt Andersen> john: are you asking whether you could put an EAI address with an 8-bit localpart into the DMARC txt record?
[14:27:22] kohei.kasamatsu130 leaves the room
[14:28:32] <SM> Asking that question to the SPFbis co-chair:)
[14:29:09] <Kurt Andersen> mic: is Andrew suggesting "just publish it"?
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[14:30:43] <mhammer> DMARC came out of practical experience between a small group of senders and receivers. The goal was to convert that experience to an open standard and hand it off to the IETF for the long term.
[14:30:53] <mhammer> please consider that a comment for the mic
[14:31:30] <Tim Draegen> IMO, email is a composite of a lot of different technologies, and DMARC is attempting to tie together quite a few sets of technologies.  The "core spec" isn't the interesting part to me, it's the longer term implementation/interaction with the existing environment (email is most used internet app, eh?)
[14:31:37] <dcrocker> mike: will do
[14:32:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DMARC    
 BOF    
 –    
 Proposed    
 C
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[14:36:45] <John Klensin> who is speaking?
[14:36:52] <john.levine> murray
[14:36:53] <SM> Murray
[14:36:58] <John Klensin> thx
[14:37:33] <john.levine> Kurt, an EAI address has UTF-8 on both sides of the @
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[14:37:57] <mhammer> +1 to what Dave jsut said
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[14:45:03] <Andrew Sullivan> The worries that Pete is raising all seem to me to be possibilites anyway.  Since DMARC depends on two existing IETF protocols (one of which is still technically EXPERIMENTAL, though it won't be for long), I don't think they're a real problem
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[14:45:33] <mhammer> +1 to Andrews comment.
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[14:47:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: DMARC    
 BOF    
 -­‐    
 Agenda    
 
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[14:50:18] <John Kelley> 1
[14:50:23] <Greg Colburn> 1
[14:50:23] <Tim Draegen> 1
[14:50:28] <mhammer> hand raise to 1
[14:50:31] <dcrocker> barry #1:  there is work to do for a wg; #2, there isn't
[14:50:33] <John Klensin> 1, but iff IETF gets complete change control
[14:50:44] <Kurt Andersen> 1 - yes
[14:50:48] <Heather Lord> 1
[14:50:50] <dcrocker> john - please look at the current draft.
[14:50:56] <Mike Jones> 1
[14:51:04] <Junping Chen> 1
[14:51:19] <rolf.sonneveld> IETF WG: 1
[14:51:22] <dcrocker> Who wants to work on this.  Just raise your hand.
[14:51:23] <John Kelley> hum
[14:51:28] <Greg Colburn> will work on wg
[14:51:30] <Tim Draegen> hand
[14:51:46] <mhammer> define "This"
[14:51:48] <Kurt Andersen> hand
[14:51:51] <Heather Lord> hand
[14:51:57] <John Klensin> foot
[14:52:01] <Mike Jones> hand raised
[14:52:03] <msk> "work on it" means reviewing documents, making comments
[14:52:10] <Kurt Andersen> mhammer: "this" == dmarc wg
[14:52:12] Trent Adams hands John a shoe
[14:52:17] <mhammer> then "hand"
[14:52:33] <Tim Draegen> can do
[14:52:34] <resnick> Say "write" if you are willing to write
[14:52:36] <Tim Draegen> write
[14:52:40] <rolf.sonneveld> review
[14:52:41] <dcrocker> help writing?  
[14:52:41] <mhammer> write
[14:53:54] <John Kelley> 2
[14:53:54] <Mike Jones> write
[14:54:10] <mhammer> 2
[14:54:14] <dcrocker> Wait until spec published (1); we can get started now (2)
[14:54:21] <Heather Lord> 2
[14:54:23] <Kurt Andersen> 2
[14:54:39] <Greg Colburn> 2
[14:54:54] <Franck Martin> who on mic?
[14:55:01] <SM> Alessandro
[14:55:14] <mhammer> There's plenty to do.
[14:55:17] <Andrew Sullivan> sorry, that was me, Andeww Sullivan
[14:55:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> for folks on Meetecho, sorry but we're way out on time and I have to be in a different room like right now :(
[14:55:28] <Mike Jones> 2
[14:55:29] <Tim Draegen> 2
[14:55:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry about that, we'll make recordings available asap!
[14:55:42] <dcrocker> repeat: 1 wait; 2 now
[14:55:47] <msk> thank you lorenzo!
[14:56:04] <mhammer> thank you lorenzo
[14:56:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[14:56:15] <Kurt Andersen> 2 - don't wait (repeated)
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[14:56:31] <rolf.sonneveld> 2
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[14:56:35] <rolf.sonneveld> 2
[14:56:37] <Tim Draegen> ciao
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[14:57:32] <rolf.sonneveld> thanks
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