IETF
dbound
dbound@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 6, 2014< ^ >
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[15:21:30] <Olaf Kolkman> Jabber: Matthijs Mekking
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[15:21:38] <matthijs> I am scribing
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[15:21:42] <Olaf Kolkman> Scribe: Stuart Cheshire
[15:21:42] =JeffH joins the room
[15:22:11] =JeffH has set the subject to: dbound Bof   IETF-89
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[15:24:21] <matthijs> "Slides" http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dbound-1.txt
[15:24:59] <matthijs> Gervase Markham is presenting use cases
[15:25:00] Dan York joins the room
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[15:25:18] <matthijs> #2
[15:27:06] <matthijs> #3
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[15:27:46] <matthijs> #4
[15:28:26] Alejandro Acosta joins the room
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[15:30:57] <matthijs> #5
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[15:31:49] <elewis > I'm trying to join MeetEcho but no success - trying http://www.meetecho.com/ietf89/dbound/
[15:32:11] <matthijs> #6
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[15:32:56] <matthijs> Dave Crocker at the mic
[15:33:02] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[15:33:24] <matthijs> (meetecho is being worked on)
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[15:34:13] <matthijs> #7
[15:34:38] resnick joins the room
[15:35:34] <Rob Evans> (Actually, just for info, foo.gov.uk has two changes in admin boundary .uk, .gov.uk and foo.gov.uk as gov.uk us not managed by Nominet.)
[15:36:11] Tim Wicinski leaves the room
[15:36:20] <matthijs> Which reminds me: If you want me to bring anything to the mic, please add "relay:" to your question/comment
[15:36:36] <Rob Evans> Ack, I'm in the room, but the moment had passed by the time I thought to add it. :)
[15:36:47] Tim Wicinski joins the room
[15:36:47] <matthijs> #8 Questions
[15:36:55] <matthijs> mic: ?
[15:37:09] Suz joins the room
[15:37:18] <matthijs> mic: Marc Blanchet
[15:37:56] <Olaf Kolkman> Are people have any audio?
[15:37:58] <bortzmeyer> Not everyone follows this fallback algorithm: Chrome treats the unknown TLD as dangerous (we had the case when we opened .YT)
[15:38:03] <Olaf Kolkman> If not we may need to be a bit more verbose here...
[15:38:27] <Barry Leiba> Chrome is probably mostly right.
[15:38:35] <matthijs> (And I might need some help then, because I don't catch everything)
[15:38:35] <Dan York> Good line forming at the mic
[15:39:10] <Barry Leiba> In general, the safe approach is to assume a slightly bad reputation at first, and adjust as behaviour is observed.
[15:39:20] <matthijs> 2nd question: uploaded the root, uploaded the psl, and the new tld's where not there.
[15:39:49] <matthijs> Olaf requesting only clarification questions now
[15:40:02] <bortzmeyer> Barry Leiba: So, .pink and .kitchen are dangerous by default?
[15:40:08] <matthijs> mic: John Levine; Any numbers how often psl is downloaded
[15:40:31] <matthijs> response: no good data
[15:40:32] <Barry Leiba> Initially, yes.  If they're not, their reputation should become positive quickly.
[15:40:42] <Andrew Sullivan> The original way that this was supposed to work is that, if something isn't in the PSL, you're supposed to treat it just like the original cookies spec said
[15:40:49] <Carsten Strotmann> audio is fine here (via stream)
[15:41:06] <Andrew Sullivan> this is actually exactly what yngve's draft was intended to address
[15:41:27] <matthijs> mic: Erik N:
[15:41:54] <resnick> Erik Nygren.
[15:41:59] <matthijs> There is one bit support for different scenarios: ICANN | PRIVATE
[15:42:36] <matthijs> (Meetecho is working already?)
[15:42:48] <Alejandro Acosta> @elewis I don't think this room has meetecho
[15:43:12] <resnick> I sent a message off to the secretariat about meetecho. They are looking into it.
[15:43:46] <matthijs> mic: Franck Martin: Algorithm should be deterministic
[15:44:30] <Alejandro Acosta> (almost off-topic.., in the IETF Journal, in the meetecho article they mention that hopefully for IETF in Hawai all rooms and sessions will have meetecho available)
[15:44:36] <matthijs> mic: Peter Koch: Asks to elobarate on the registration procedures
[15:45:11] <elewis > FWIW - the session is on the MeetEcho page…not sure if that "means" anything.
[15:45:46] <matthijs> response: different for PRIVATE and ICANN: both politics
[15:46:34] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[15:47:13] <matthijs> mic: Murray: "How long it takes for an update"
[15:47:36] <matthijs> response: matter of weeks
[15:47:58] <Andrew Sullivan> Note that Olaf is speaking from the floor, not the chair
[15:48:16] <Andrew Sullivan> (just for the remoters)
[15:48:20] <matthijs> mic: Olaf Kolkman: are there use cases that PSL cannot do?
[15:48:27] <matthijs> response: atm it works well
[15:48:49] <matthijs> Andrew: thanks
[15:49:56] <jelte> add nameservers in that list there and we save two more lookups
[15:50:05] <Andrew Sullivan> @matthijs: having been "remote" in DANE today because of the room filling up, I suddenly have a better appreciation of what is and isn't confusing!
[15:50:31] <matthijs> I
[15:50:38] <matthijs> I'll have to try that once :)
[15:50:55] <matthijs> now up: Yngve N Pettersen presenting Background on SubTLDs
[15:51:13] <matthijs> Slide #2: The Beginning
[15:51:22] <=JeffH> note that the co-called "public suffix list" has various names: aka PSL aka "eTLD" "effective TLD"    --- note that this is the URI for the list: http://publicsuffix.org/list/effective_tld_names.dat
[15:52:43] <matthijs> #3
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[15:53:12] <fdupont> SUPPRESS COOKIES! SUPPRESS ALL COOKIES!! oops, I wrote all cookies?!
[15:53:42] <Dave Thaler> what would we eat during the breaks then?
[15:53:55] <Barry Leiba> Brownies
[15:53:59] <Barry Leiba> They're better anyway.
[15:54:09] <Dan York> the IETF runs on cookies... we can't get rid of them! ;-)
[15:54:43] <matthijs> #4
[15:55:46] <matthijs> #5
[15:56:37] <bortzmeyer> If they are airgapped, why do they need info about suffixes???
[15:57:01] <Dan York> Note to self: remember that anything written in this chat room is public and therefore can be tweeted by someone else. :-D
[15:57:09] <matthijs> sorry :)
[15:57:15] <bortzmeyer> =JeffH:  effective TLD is really a stupid name. co.uk is not a TLD, effective or not
[15:57:22] =JeffH leaves the room
[15:57:23] <matthijs> but this is public ;)
[15:57:29] <elewis > And it clutters the limited bandwidth for remote attendees.
[15:57:29] =JeffH joins the room
[15:57:36] <Dan York> Heh... no worries matthijs, it has happened several times at this meeting!  I just have to remember that. ;-)
[15:57:41] <Andrew Sullivan> the airgap case is not really an airgap, but a proxy problem
[15:57:47] <matthijs> Time for questions
[15:57:56] <matthijs> no questions
[15:58:17] <matthijs> Next up: Andrew Sullivan on Domain Boundaries in DNS Zones
[15:58:27] <matthijs> Slide #1
[15:58:35] <matthijs> #2
[15:58:46] <bortzmeyer> Most tweets mentioning cookies in the last five minutes had nothing to do with the IETF. #uselessFact
[15:59:24] <Dan York> Ah, you ran a search, bortzmeyer?
[15:59:25] <matthijs> #3
[15:59:27] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dbound-3.pdf
[15:59:29] <matthijs> #4
[15:59:35] <bortzmeyer> Dan York: yes :-)
[15:59:45] <matthijs> SOPA has nothing to do with SOPA
[16:00:10] <resnick> Darn Canadians. :-)
[16:00:19] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[16:01:16] <matthijs> #5
[16:02:38] <Barry Leiba> Mic is actually Alexander Meyrhofer.
[16:02:39] <matthijs> mic: Peter Koch, oh no: Alexander Mayrofher
[16:02:52] <elewis > Comment at the end of this: reminds me of the problem we had in setting up the "who can sign" issue in DNSSEC.  I.e., why the RRSIG has a signer name in it instead of automatically assuming the zone it is in AND why today we only allow the zone to sign it.  (Sorry for limited bandwidth in relaying this in jabber.)
[16:03:18] <Dan York> Awesome channeling of Herr Koch!
[16:03:41] <resnick> @Ed: Give a quick ping when you want someone to read this to the mic and we will.
[16:03:54] <Dan York> Ed - do you need that relayed?
[16:03:58] <elewis > Yep.
[16:04:00] <matthijs> @elewis: do you want that to be relayed to the mic (for example in the discussion)
[16:04:10] <resnick> Wait until the end, or now?
[16:04:21] <matthijs> ok: @Dan you pick up the relays?
[16:04:23] <Dan York> I am glad to do that
[16:04:23] <elewis > Wait to end.  Andrew will "get" it…
[16:04:27] <Dan York> k
[16:04:27] Hugo Salgado joins the room
[16:04:36] <matthijs> #6
[16:04:38] <Barry Leiba> I'll get in the queue at the appropriate time.
[16:04:40] Hugo Salgado leaves the room
[16:04:44] <Barry Leiba> I'm right next to the mic.
[16:04:57] <Barry Leiba> (Actually, I'm left next to the mic.)
[16:05:35] <Dan York> Barry - cool... I have a comment, too, so I don't mind doing the relay at the same time.
[16:05:52] <matthijs> mic: Yngve
[16:05:58] <elewis > You can add, if anyone cares, it's why RFC 3008 was added to RFC 2535.  (The fact that the numbers are "different" is more important than the titles.)
[16:06:07] Hugo Salgado joins the room
[16:06:48] <Olaf Kolkman> Do you have to publish the SOPA at the parental side of the zone cut? Is that your question?
[16:06:54] <matthijs> mic: Dave Crocker
[16:07:16] <Olaf Kolkman> (in some cases)
[16:07:52] <Barry Leiba> Dan, send your comment now, so I have it ready, please.
[16:07:58] Peter Koch joins the room
[16:08:03] <Barry Leiba> Never mind, Dan.
[16:08:06] <Dan York> Barry, I'm here in the room
[16:08:10] <Barry Leiba> I misunderstood, but I got it now.
[16:08:10] <matthijs> #7
[16:08:32] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[16:08:45] <matthijs> mic: Phillip Halam Baker
[16:08:49] <Dan York> Barry Leiba: And I'm glad to leave the relays to you... but since I'm going up I'm glad to add Ed's comment
[16:09:01] <Barry Leiba> It's all yours; ta.
[16:09:08] <Peter Koch> Just for clarity: did the latest comment by Alex get the real attribution?
[16:09:23] <Barry Leiba> Peter, yes.
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[16:10:47] <Dan York> elewis : I am up next
[16:11:27] <matthijs> (some confusion about closing the line)
[16:12:09] <bortzmeyer> Solution to PHB's remarks: QNAME minimization :-)
[16:12:10] <matthijs> Dan relaying Ed
[16:12:17] <elewis > You don't know that the TLD server is only a TLD server....
[16:12:31] john.levine joins the room
[16:12:49] <bortzmeyer> elewis : you have to learn it if you want to do DNSSEC (to send DS and DNSKEY queries at the right place)
[16:12:56] <matthijs> mic: Dan York
[16:13:11] <wseltzer> stop SOPA.... oh, wait
[16:13:24] <matthijs> mic: Gervase Markam
[16:13:30] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[16:13:32] <Olafur Gudmundsson> go SOPA go
[16:13:36] <Suz> "US-only and temporary"? from your lips to God's ears!
[16:13:48] <jelte> i'm gonna buy andrew two internets if he changes it to PIPA in -02
[16:13:52] <wseltzer> +1 Suz
[16:14:29] <elewis > Stephan - hard to put this in jabber, but what I mean was that we couldn't solve it for DNSSEC.  Not that it's impossible, but I'd look at what failed back then to see what we'd have to overcome.
[16:14:57] <matthijs> mic: Mark
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[16:16:57] <Dan York> All joking about the name aside, I do think if this moves forward the name of the record could be confusing to people outside of IETF circles if we want to get DNS operators to deploy this.
[16:17:05] <jelte> optionally add it to additional?
[16:17:35] <matthijs> Olaf (as chair) notices Mark's non vocal expressions
[16:17:55] <matthijs> mic: Yoav Nir
[16:18:08] <jelte> browsers builders won't like it, they don't wanna do dnssec either
[16:18:38] <jelte> (in the browser)
[16:18:51] <matthijs> jelte: but now they have an api ;)
[16:19:18] <jelte> woohoo!
[16:19:37] <jelte> it's on my list to check out for real :)
[16:19:45] <Dan York> jelte: right, because they worship at the altar of speed... and anything that gets in the way of speed is frowned upon.
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[16:21:28] <matthijs> (Some people tried to sneak into the line after closing)
[16:21:35] <matthijs> I will not name names :)
[16:21:48] <matthijs> Now presenting: John Levine on orgboundary
[16:22:01] <matthijs> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dbound-2.pdf
[16:22:08] <matthijs> Which he lost belief in
[16:22:13] <matthijs> #2
[16:22:19] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[16:22:33] <matthijs> #3
[16:22:45] <jelte> Dan York: is post-mature optimization a term? :)
[16:23:09] <Dan York> :-)
[16:23:22] <matthijs> #4
[16:23:26] <Andrew Sullivan> @jelte: if not, it should be
[16:23:59] <matthijs> #5
[16:24:43] <Olaf Kolkman> Andrew.. to build the suffix list from the DNS.. would you need to probabilistic tree walking or would there be a complete graph of SOPA references (assuming that you have a list of TLDs)
[16:25:03] <matthijs> #6
[16:25:06] <Suz> @jelte: post-maturity optimization would sound slightly better.
[16:25:12] <resnick> Question for Yoav (or others): I keep hearing that new records are filtered, by firewalls, by middle boxes of other sorts, or by OSes. Is there published research on this anywhere? How widespread is the problem?
[16:26:40] <matthijs> #7
[16:27:12] <Andrew Sullivan> @Olaf I don't think you could build the whole list from the DNS reliably.  I think what would happen is that you'd get the hints you get today, bootstrapped just as it is
[16:27:25] <Olaf Kolkman> thanks
[16:27:36] <Olaf Kolkman> that confirms what I thought…
[16:27:40] <Carsten Strotmann> @resnick: I have seen DNS servers (caching/authoritative) not supporting new RR Types, but not firewall, OS-stub-resovers or middleboxes. It might be possible, but never seen it
[16:27:59] Tim Wicinski leaves the room
[16:28:06] <Andrew Sullivan> but the communication of those relationships would be more reliable, because you'd ask the authoritative servers rather than guessing about policies inside some organization
[16:28:23] <matthijs> open mic/generic discussion
[16:28:32] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[16:28:34] <matthijs> mic: Dave Crocker
[16:29:02] Tim Wicinski joins the room
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[16:29:13] <matthijs> Chair Slides #4: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dbound-4.pdf
[16:29:38] <resnick> @cas: Interesting. Do we know what kind of servers? Again, do we know of any real research in this area?
[16:29:47] <matthijs> mic: Olaf (from chair)
[16:29:47] Olafur Gudmundsson leaves the room
[16:30:01] <Carsten Strotmann> Yes, but I do not want to shame here
[16:30:03] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[16:30:05] <matthijs> mic: Andrew Sullivan
[16:30:09] <matthijs> (coming up)
[16:30:23] <Carsten Strotmann> but I'm happy to share my knowledge by E-Mail
[16:30:50] John Doe joins the room
[16:31:00] <matthijs> mic: Murray responded
[16:31:03] <matthijs> mic: Gervase Markham
[16:31:06] <Peter Koch> Carsten, how does  'not supporting' look like?
[16:31:32] <Andrew Sullivan> @resnick: Ray Bellis created a report on middleboxes for SSAC or ICANN or something like that
[16:31:35] <matthijs> Carsten: I guess they support "unsupported RRtypes"?
[16:31:38] <Andrew Sullivan> it's been floating around for a while
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[16:32:13] <Carsten Strotmann> @matthijs: no, some popular DNS servers don't support "unsupported RRtypes"?
[16:32:23] John Doe leaves the room
[16:32:29] <matthijs> wow
[16:32:35] John Doe joins the room
[16:33:29] <matthijs> mic: Casey ?
[16:33:34] <Olaf Kolkman> yes
[16:33:36] <Suz> http://download.nominet.org.uk/dnssec-cpe/DNSSEC-CPE-Report.pdf I thnk
[16:33:37] <Andrew Sullivan> There is at least one very popular authoritative server that can take unknown rrtypes if you zone transfer in, but you can't actually enter them
[16:33:38] <Suz> Casey Deccio
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[16:34:24] <resnick> @cas: Please do drop me some email.
[16:34:24] <Carsten Strotmann> @matthijs: as in RFC 3597
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[16:34:40] <matthijs> Carsten: yes that's what I meant
[16:35:35] <matthijs> mic: Alexander Mayrofher
[16:36:01] <resnick> @suz: Thanks. Excellent.
[16:36:10] <Carsten Strotmann> @resnick: will do
[16:36:51] <matthijs> mic: Yngve Pettersen
[16:37:10] resnick now cringes every time someone threatens to do a hum. ;-)
[16:37:39] <Dan York> resnick: There's also the deployment challenge that it may take a significant amount of time for some DNS hosting operators to allow customers to enter new RRTYPES.
[16:37:52] <matthijs> mic: Phillip Halam Baker
[16:37:56] John Doe leaves the room
[16:38:08] <Barry Leiba> Pete, I plan to do a hum to see if we're ready for a hum.
[16:38:53] <matthijs> mic: Olaf (on his chair)
[16:39:02] <Dan York> resnick: (we're seeing that now with trying to get DNS hosting providers to allow easy input of TLSA records for DANE. In many cases DNS operators provide their customers with a web GUI and only allow entry of specific records.)
[16:39:12] <resnick> @dan: Sure, but in this particular instance it probably doesn't matter as much. Different folks than normal record deployment, eh?
[16:39:16] <jelte> the hosting operator problem keeps popping up again and again as well (see: TXT records), it may not be something of the ietf itself to tackle, we but (the people here) should be working towards trying to fix that
[16:39:24] <resnick> @barry: Thanks; that I'd like.
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[16:40:02] <matthijs> mic: Geoff
[16:40:03] <Dan York> resnick: Ah, true... yes, here in DBOUND we probably are dealing with a different level of operations.
[16:40:42] <Andrew Sullivan> I think John Levine has an excellent solution to that issue, and has had for some time
[16:40:58] <jelte> i am hoping that will help, yes
[16:41:11] <jelte> but it's probably only part of it
[16:41:11] <Dan York> jelte: yes, getting DNS operators to allow entry of other DNS fields is a larger issue.
[16:41:20] <jelte> it's another topic though :p
[16:41:31] <Dan York> yep
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[16:42:32] <Dan York> (but I cringe every time I see someone bring a new RRTYPE into the DANE WG in a new draft because this issue is so challenging for deployment right now)
[16:42:38] John Doe leaves the room
[16:42:39] <matthijs> mic: Olaf (semi-chair)
[16:43:02] <Andrew Sullivan> @Dan: a flood of demand all at once might break loose the resistance :)
[16:43:12] <jelte> perhaps they are trying to force the issue? :)
[16:43:27] <resnick> The Bellis/Phifer paper looks promising on this topic. More such papers, naming names, would be useful, both for our understanding of the problem (and this will change over time) and for public embarrassment purposes of getting folks to do the right thing.
[16:43:44] <matthijs> mic: Peter Koch (the real one)
[16:44:42] <Dan York> resnick: The caution is that that paper is from *2008* and a ****LOT**** has changed in the world of DNSSEC since then.
[16:45:20] <Dan York> resnick: but I agree 100% that this kind of research and documentation is excellent.
[16:45:21] <Andrew Sullivan> The issue Peter is raising, however, is actually addressed in the draft as it stands
[16:45:25] <resnick> Well, exactly. That's why I said "this will change over time". We need this to be very public and updated.
[16:45:40] <Andrew Sullivan> There's no need for ICANN to be boss of anything.
[16:45:55] <matthijs> mic: Mark Nighly
[16:46:11] <matthijs> (difficult to spell all those names if they are not wearing name tags)
[16:46:12] <resnick> Mark Nottingham
[16:46:18] <matthijs> ah
[16:46:25] <matthijs> my ears aren't as good anymore :)
[16:46:41] <matthijs> mic: Wendy Seltzer
[16:46:46] <Andrew Sullivan> The reason that I didn't tackle it the way Mark just suggested is that the existing system _does not_ actually solve certain problems people have.
[16:47:03] <Andrew Sullivan> An example is dyndns.org and friends
[16:47:23] <matthijs> mic: Joe Hildebrand
[16:47:34] <Andrew Sullivan> (Clearly the draft still doesn't express this well enough)
[16:47:43] Barry Leiba leaves the room
[16:47:46] <Dan York> resnick: Agree we need to get some better research.  I'll poke around on this topic...
[16:48:05] <matthijs> mic: Dave Crocker
[16:48:34] wseltzer joins the room
[16:49:17] <matthijs> Olaf Kolkman (chair)
[16:49:40] <matthijs> dbound became a dark room
[16:49:53] <jelte> yet again: the spirits disagree
[16:50:32] =JeffH leaves the room
[16:51:04] <matthijs> a couple of hands that are willing to work on problem statement
[16:51:04] Rob Evans leaves the room
[16:51:21] =JeffH joins the room
[16:51:26] <matthijs> and let there be light
[16:52:02] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[16:52:12] Dan York leaves the room
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[16:52:23] <matthijs> meeting's over
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