IETF
dane@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, March 24, 2015< ^ >
Jakob Schlyter has set the subject to: DANE WG Interim virtual Meeting: SMIME Usage cases and Requirements
Room Configuration
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[22:24:25] <c> can't seem to open streams :/
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[22:26:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> there's no video yet
[22:26:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> it's still pause time
[22:27:02] <c> audio only stream giving errors
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[22:28:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> are you talking of the WebRTC stream, or the alternative audio streams (RTSP, HTML5)
[22:29:01] <craigt> http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u
[22:29:07] <craigt> linked from the main agenda page
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[22:29:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok starting it in a minute
[22:29:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> should be up now
[22:30:07] <Nicolas Williams> meetecho seems to be working
[22:30:26] <craigt> Thank you...all seems good now...
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[22:30:50] <Nicolas Williams> first time using meetecho
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[22:33:19] <Nicolas Williams> I agree as to physical participation, you pay, you show up, you get priority
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[22:33:57] <Dan York 2> So... some of us were unable to show up, not because of payment, but because of other events in our lives.
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[22:34:08] <sftcd> the meetecho experiment thing is at http://venetian.conf.meetecho.com/queue/
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[22:34:40] <Viktor Dukhovni> Client auth
[22:34:45] jakob has set the subject to: DANE WG @ IETF'92
[22:34:47] <Viktor Dukhovni> I do have agenda question.
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[22:35:03] <msk> Is there a corrected URL for the audio stream?  The one on the tools page 404s.
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[22:35:36] <Dan York 2> Meetecho stream is at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf92/dane
[22:35:38] <Viktor Dukhovni> The SMTP draft solves this problem.
[22:35:40] <marco@nl> What is the IETF queue experiment? I missed the explanation
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[22:35:47] <sftcd> and the instructions for the queue thing are at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dane/current/msg07415.html
[22:35:52] <sftcd> (which I have yet to read:-)
[22:36:02] <Dan York 2> MP3 stream is at http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf928.m3u
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[22:36:13] <Melinda Shore> what's the URL for the queue manager?
[22:36:29] <Dan York 2> You need to be in the Meetecho
[22:36:31] <marco@nl> thanks
[22:36:34] <Barry Leiba> venetian.conf.meetecho.com/queue
[22:36:46] <Dan York 2> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf92/dane
[22:37:02] <Meetecho> the link Barry gave is the one to use to participate in the experiment
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[22:37:10] <Meetecho> it's just the queue, without the audio/video stuff
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[22:37:15] <Dan York 2> Ah, nice
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[22:37:22] <Meetecho> for local attendees only, of course
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[22:38:08] <Viktor Dukhovni> I was planning to write the client auth draft...
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[22:38:36] <Melinda Shore> Thanks!
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[22:38:51] <Viktor Dukhovni> Who's monitoring the remote mike queue?
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[22:39:05] <Melinda Shore> The entire room - it's projected
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[22:39:13] <resnick> Viktor, please talk. You're at the mic.
[22:39:17] <Dan York 2> you're up, Viktor
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[22:39:51] <dkg> Viktor Dukhovni: you're supposedly able to talk now
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[22:40:03] <Viktor Dukhovni> Doesn't seem to help
[22:40:07] <dkg> :(
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[22:41:30] <sftcd> if the meetecho experiment doesn't work for someone remote, I can channel but please preface your comment in the jabber room with "mic:"
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[22:44:24] <msk> Yeah, that slide is awful.
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[22:49:20] <Dan York 2> I think this is interesting work
[22:49:25] <Viktor Dukhovni> Is there enough energy in the group to review the new work?
[22:49:37] <Nicolas Williams> mic: viktor
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[22:49:43] <Viktor Dukhovni> I've had trouble getting feedback on things that were on the charter...
[22:49:44] <Dan York 2> DNSSEC/DANE + Bitcoin: somewhere out there there are heads exploding :-)
[22:50:23] <Nicolas Williams> I suppose that for cryptocurrencies this makes sense; how would it work for non-cryptocurrency payments?  (no need to channel)
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[22:50:47] <Nicolas Williams> I completely forgot to measure remote participation latency earlier...
[22:50:49] <Allison Mankin> hummmmm
[22:50:51] <Dan York 2> Hum for this being useful
[22:50:54] <Nicolas Williams> hummmmm
[22:50:55] <C Peters> hummmmm
[22:51:09] <Nicolas Williams> who will review?
[22:51:10] <Dan York 2> FYI, Viktor and I are both in the remote mic queue
[22:51:13] <Peter DeVries> more humming for interesting useful.  
[22:51:19] <resnick> Viktor, you're up.
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[22:51:29] <resnick> Are you speaking?
[22:51:31] <sftcd> viktor are you speaking?
[22:51:38] <Viktor Dukhovni> Not working.
[22:51:40] <Allison Mankin> I wanted to see how the hum works so I hummed in here.  How is this not like voting if the hum is shown next to the names?
[22:52:16] <Nicolas Williams> yeah, maybe we can recruit bitcoin enthusiasts to work on this and DANE in general
[22:52:19] <Peter DeVries> yes!
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[22:53:04] <Nicolas Williams> yes, it's much louder than mics in the room
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[22:53:33] <resnick> try again Viktor.
[22:53:48] <Melinda Shore> It should be pretty easy to anonymize the humming (although it would still be entirely too much like voting)
[22:53:49] <Nicolas Williams> Allison: humming was never really about anonymity
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[22:54:04] <resnick> Nico: What makes it a vote is the use of it, not the anonymity or not of it.
[22:54:09] <resnick> RFC 7282.
[22:54:26] <Nicolas Williams> resnick: right, and so what does it matter if the name is shown or not?
[22:54:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Viktor: have you accepted the permissions to access mic/webcam when joining the room?
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[22:55:48] <Nicolas Williams> bytes
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[22:56:37] <Melinda Shore> I don't think there's a good way to automate humming that doesn't turn it into voting.  Maybe you could create "buckets" at 20% boundaries or something like that, but it's still kind of vote-y.
[22:57:08] <Viktor Dukhovni> One proposal was to use DNS to provide a reference to an online service at the remote site, rather than publish the keys directly.
[22:57:13] <Nicolas Williams> remember, consensus is to be confirmed on the lists, so humming is very unofficial
[22:57:22] <Nicolas Williams> can't hear!
[22:57:31] <Dan York 2> Is someone talking?
[22:57:35] <sftcd> yes, paul hoffman
[22:57:36] <Dan York 2> We can't hear the mic
[22:57:43] <Nicolas Williams> yes, please speak up (or closer to the mic)!
[22:57:53] <sftcd> now barry can you hear that mic?
[22:58:05] <Viktor Dukhovni> Meetecho mic not working for me...
[22:58:21] <Nicolas Williams> Please fix the physical room mic
[22:58:30] <Viktor Dukhovni> Repeat the room comments?
[22:58:36] <Sean Turner> +1 to what PH said
[22:58:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Viktor but are you listening using one of the alternative audio streams? we don't see you in the audio mix
[22:58:48] <Peter DeVries> can you hear now?
[22:58:48] <Nicolas Williams> now I can hear
[22:58:49] <Nicolas Williams> thanks
[22:58:49] <sftcd> getting audio now?
[22:58:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> which would exlain why you're not unmuted when it's your turn
[22:58:54] <sftcd> it's the back mic
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[22:59:10] <sftcd> in-room queue has moved to front mic
[22:59:22] <Sean Turner> +1
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[23:00:09] <jakob> FWIW, I agree with my co-author (Paul)
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[23:01:11] <Nicolas Williams> guess: tolower, yeah, but it's kinda iffy
[23:01:24] <Nicolas Williams> does any MUA do that?
[23:01:33] <Viktor Dukhovni> How often to people enter email address de novo?
[23:01:44] <Viktor Dukhovni> In most cases, reply or use address book...
[23:02:01] <Sean Turner> @victor yep
[23:02:02] <Nicolas Williams> viktor: I do it often, mostly because I can't get mutt to take my aliases...
[23:02:14] <Nicolas Williams> but that's me and my fault
[23:02:21] <Viktor Dukhovni> Mutt aliases work fine for me.
[23:02:27] <Nicolas Williams> yes, I know
[23:02:32] <Nicolas Williams> I need to go debug it
[23:02:32] <jcooter> plus you still have to input the address in your address book at some point
[23:02:59] <Nicolas Williams> jcooter: often that happens from an email you've received
[23:03:02] <Viktor Dukhovni> I'm willing to extend Postfix to support a lookup service.
[23:03:44] <jcooter> often, but not nearly even close to universally
[23:04:02] <John Levine> my usual example is addresses from business cards
[23:04:04] <Nicolas Williams> jcooter: agreed
[23:04:18] <Nicolas Williams> I support an optional lookup service
[23:05:19] <Nicolas Williams> yes, addresses from business cards (sans qr code) are a problem
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[23:05:54] <msk> John Levine: don't forget plus-tagging
[23:06:20] <Nicolas Williams> Mic: I support PH's suggestion (no folding, no guessing) + an optional lookup service
[23:06:58] <msk> I think (but I'm not sure) that gmail addresses canonicalize by going all-lowercase and removing periods
[23:07:22] John Levine joins the room
[23:07:27] <sftcd> @olafur: since you have a mic maybe it's better if you channel from jabber when/as you think?
[23:07:47] <Nicolas Williams> case folding works well enough for all-ASCII, but start going beyond and it gets harder
[23:07:53] <Viktor Dukhovni> Why optional service?  Why not remote service only?
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[23:08:05] <Nicolas Williams> viktor: I might not want to run one
[23:08:11] <Nicolas Williams> oh
[23:08:16] <msk> yeah I don't know how Gmail handles EAI
[23:08:18] <Nicolas Williams> hmm
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[23:08:24] <Viktor Dukhovni> If you run an MTA, it would be built-in.
[23:08:52] <Nicolas Williams> one more thing to protect against abuse?
[23:09:07] <Nicolas Williams> I might like to be able to turn it off and not lose most inbound mail
[23:09:26] <sftcd> @nico: long line but I'll get your "Mic: I support PH's suggestion (no folding, no guessing) + an optional lookup service" there in a while
[23:09:53] <Viktor Dukhovni> This has nothing to do with SMIME
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[23:10:01] <Viktor Dukhovni> it applies to encrypted email or ottherwise
[23:10:17] <nico> sftcd: how come I didn't get to have my mic and camera up?  did I do something wrong?
[23:10:42] <sftcd> you need to sign in to the meetecho thing
[23:10:48] <nico> I am!
[23:10:56] <Viktor Dukhovni> Hash collisions are not worth considering.
[23:11:06] <Viktor Dukhovni> NOOOO.
[23:11:09] <sftcd> @nico: eh... dunno;-)
[23:11:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> nico with what username?
[23:11:28] <nico> er, there was only the blue sheet signup
[23:11:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> anyway you need to accept the mic/webcam permission when you join, and then the "Raise hand" icon puts you in the floor control queue
[23:11:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> once you're accepted you can talk
[23:12:09] <nico> I did do that; all I get to do is click on the hand
[23:12:17] <sftcd> you seem to be there now
[23:12:18] <nico> then it gets a bar and circle through it
[23:12:20] <nico> ahh
[23:12:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> then you're in line
[23:12:32] <Viktor Dukhovni> Not on port 25 it won't.
[23:12:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> you've not been granted the floor yet ;)
[23:12:51] <Viktor Dukhovni> It would another service published via DNSSEC validated URI.
[23:12:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> if you click the people icon in the upper right corner you'll see the current line
[23:13:07] <Viktor Dukhovni> It would run colocated with the remote MTA.
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[23:14:01] <Viktor Dukhovni> Mic: Yes, DANE secures the transport to the oracle.
[23:14:10] <Nicolas Williams> DANE would be good for verifying sender signing keys
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[23:14:22] <Nicolas Williams> and it secures the MTA
[23:14:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Nicolas you can talk :)
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[23:15:18] <Nicolas Williams> done
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[23:15:40] <Viktor Dukhovni> NAPTR is overkill.
[23:16:05] <Dan York 2> Nicolas Williams: Did you NOT enable your camera?  (Or do you not have a camera?)   Just curious as to why there was no video.
[23:16:08] <Viktor Dukhovni> We just need an oracle transport location or URI.
[23:16:27] <nico> Dan York 2: no, it turns out it works
[23:16:59] <Dan York 2> nico - oh, did people see the video in the room?   I was remote and didn't see your video.
[23:17:15] <nico> I assume so; it showed me me
[23:17:31] <Dan York 2> Interesting
[23:17:41] <Dan York 2> Lorenzo Miniero: did you folks see his video?
[23:17:43] <Viktor Dukhovni> YES. DANE secures the transport and authentication of the oracle.
[23:17:48] <sftcd> @nico: your video didn't show, but i think meetecho folks need to manually swap for that
[23:17:57] <sftcd> dan's video was projected here
[23:18:06] <nico> it's ok, i was heard and that's what matters
[23:18:12] <nico> yes, I did see Dan's video
[23:18:18] <Viktor Dukhovni> How is DNSSEC not DOSable.
[23:18:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> must have been a glitch, I got both videos, so sorry about that
[23:18:41] <nico> Lorenzo: thanks for confirming
[23:18:46] <jcooter> because to DoS DNSSEC you need to DoS DNS
[23:18:49] <nico> (my lighting was weak)
[23:18:56] <jcooter> which leaves you a host of whole other problems
[23:19:32] <nico> start with no mapping, no service; add the service later
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[23:20:23] <Viktor Dukhovni> DNS from the SMTP server does not solve the problem.
[23:20:42] <ajsaf@jabber.org> If you're talking to the SMTP server anyway, why would you look the things up in the DNS?  Just ask the server, no?
[23:20:48] <msk> ^^ +1
[23:21:15] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Also, what Eric is saying
[23:21:38] <Sean Turner> +1 to what Eric said
[23:22:12] <jlatour> +1   try openpgpkey-milter, it works
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[23:24:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Oh, poppycock.  You could update the relevant DNS system with relevant update mechanisms.  Just because people actually use 1989 technology for managing their dns systems doesn't mean you need to
[23:24:44] <nico> let's move on; we're ratholing
[23:24:48] <Viktor Dukhovni> Dots work in DNS, they're not a problem.
[23:24:49] <ajsaf@jabber.org> (that was a reply to Keith)
[23:25:22] <Viktor Dukhovni> Non-ASCII chars and long names, and case-sensitivity are the problem.
[23:28:21] <msk> Who was that at the mic?
[23:28:30] <Olafur Chair > dan gilmore
[23:28:34] <msk> thx
[23:28:41] <nico> is there anything else on the agenda?  will we have time for it?
[23:28:46] <Simon Romano> @Dan: I did not show Nico, because I was too slow in switching the beamer cable from on e laptop to the other.
[23:29:04] <Viktor Dukhovni> DNS leask the same data as an oracle.
[23:29:15] <Viktor Dukhovni> s/leask/leaks/
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[23:31:56] <Carsten Strotmann_MnM> Hummm in favor
[23:31:56] <Nicolas Williams> hummmmm
[23:32:04] <Viktor Dukhovni> hummmmm
[23:32:05] <Viktor Dukhovni> hummmmm
[23:32:09] <Nicolas Williams> there's no hum louder option...
[23:32:13] <Nicolas Williams> :)
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[23:32:34] <Peter DeVries> humms in favor were stronger
[23:32:41] <Viktor Dukhovni> I don't think this will get much adoption.
[23:32:51] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Oh, for heaven's sake
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[23:33:03] <ajsaf@jabber.org> If it's EXPERIMENTAL then people can try it and see if it doesn't work
[23:33:09] <Peter DeVries> Side note it seems like the online queueing experiment should have been done on a less contentious topic.  The line here is very long and everyone has abandoned meet-echo (obviously).
[23:33:14] <ajsaf@jabber.org> if it doesn't work, then we won't use it
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[23:52:33] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: session closed
[23:55:24] Sean Turner leaves the room
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