IETF
dane@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 6, 2014< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: DANE WG | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dane/
Room Configuration
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[08:54:04] <oej> Hello and welcome to DANE!
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[08:54:52] <oej> I will be your relay during this session. Please note that the note well applies to remote participation too. If you haven't please read through it - https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html
[08:56:33] <Jakob Schlyter> Do we have audio?
[08:56:52] <oej> Our agenda https://tools.ietf.org/wg/dane/agenda
[08:56:56] <Jakob Schlyter> http://nagasaki.bogus.com:8000/stream05 is not responding.
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[08:57:29] <oej> Did you hear that Jakob?
[08:57:29] <fanf> gosh busy in here :-)
[08:58:05] <oej> We're looking for the audio stream. We do hear each other here.
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[08:58:15] <Dan York2> test
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[08:58:34] <oej> The stream may come up at 9.00 sharp
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[08:58:51] <oej> I can not guarantee that the same applies to all paricipants in the room.
[08:58:58] <Dan York> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/89/remote-participation.html#audio
[08:59:08] <oej> If you as a remote participant wants me to relay anything to the room, please prefix with "relay:"
[08:59:11] <Dan York> They sometimes don't start until right at the time
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[08:59:23] <paulwouters> testing?
[08:59:26] <paulwouters> woohoo
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[09:00:08] <oej (scribe)> Woohoo
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[09:00:20] <Carsten Strotmann> audio is now working
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[09:01:01] <Jakob Schlyter> yes.
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[09:01:15] <Brandon Height> Carsten Strotmann: Try now. Audio recording/streaming was automated to start @ 9:00
[09:01:21] <oej (scribe)> Thank you for the feedback!
[09:01:28] Suz joins the room
[09:01:29] <Brandon Height> Oh sorry I misread that
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[09:01:38] <oej (scribe)> Slide #5: Agenda
[09:01:50] <Carsten Strotmann> I just remarked that audio is *now* working ;)
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[09:02:14] <oej (scribe)> Slide #7 Wg Doc Status
[09:02:27] <oej (scribe)> You will find the slides at https://tools.ietf.org/wg/dane/agenda
[09:03:07] <oej (scribe)> Presentation: DANE Future Olafur/Warren
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[09:03:37] <oej (scribe)> We have a small room, but it is filled with people. And we have m&m
[09:04:31] <oej (scribe)> Slide: Existing Document Plan
[09:04:49] <paulwouters> M&Ms? where? :P
[09:05:27] matthijs joins the room
[09:05:38] <oej (scribe)> Just one - Matt Miller :-) (He's using the nick m&m)
[09:05:59] <oej (scribe)> Slide: After that?
[09:06:14] <sftcd> i like therm value
[09:06:22] <bortzmeyer> "long therm value" Because it is hot in the room?
[09:06:37] <oej (scribe)> We Hartakker speaking
[09:06:43] <oej (scribe)> Hardaker
[09:07:10] <oej (scribe)> Dan YOrk speaking
[09:07:34] <oej (scribe)> Paul Hofman speaking
[09:08:12] <Jakob Schlyter> mic: I believe this WG will be needed for an extended time, if not to clear confusion and possible DANE misuse.
[09:08:21] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation - smtp
[09:08:24] <Jakob Schlyter> (ah, skip that)
[09:08:57] <oej (scribe)> Presentation: DANE SMTP and OPS open issus - Viktor Dukhovni
[09:09:42] <sftcd> he gets a clap (for writing code too:-)
[09:10:32] <Barry Leiba> And the room gets fuller.
[09:10:39] <Barry Leiba> We thought it wasn't possible.
[09:10:51] <oej (scribe)> Slide #2 - TLS discovery
[09:11:02] <bortzmeyer> No slides in the agenda https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/agenda/dane/ ?
[09:11:07] <oej (scribe)> There are no slide numbers, so I may loose track of oage numbers.
[09:11:07] <jimsch1> What says the fire marshaal - should we get a false alarm today?
[09:11:08] <Dan York> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dane-1.pdf
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[09:11:16] <oej (scribe)> https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/89/slides/slides-89-dane-1.pdf
[09:11:26] <oej (scribe)> Found them on the agenda, you propably need to update the page
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[09:11:32] <oej (scribe)> (Last minute changes)
[09:12:15] <oej (scribe)> "You can never have enough CAs, but at the time you have enough CAs you have too many of them" - Viktor
[09:12:28] <oej (scribe)> Can you hear properly?
[09:12:39] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 - Dane-ee cert semantics
[09:12:41] <jimsch1> remote audio is fine
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[09:13:46] <bortzmeyer> oej (scribe): not on this agenda https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/agenda/dane/
[09:14:07] <oej (scribe)> Check here https://tools.ietf.org/wg/dane/agenda
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[09:14:34] <oej (scribe)> If you want me to relay anything to the room, please prefix with "relay: "
[09:14:47] <oej (scribe)> (The space is significant for my parser) :-)
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[09:17:29] <Dan York> You can get slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/89/materials.html#sec
[09:18:07] <oej (scribe)> Slide #4 - DANE-TA(2) semantics
[09:18:12] <oej (scribe)> TA = Trust Anchors
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[09:22:20] <oej (scribe)> Slide #5 - Digest Algorithm Agility
[09:22:46] <Dan York> So why are we waiting until the very end for questions?  People are going to forget...
[09:23:01] Doug Montgomery joins the room
[09:23:01] <Andrew Sullivan> @dan: write it down :)
[09:23:14] <bortzmeyer> Dan York:  i agree. And it will be harder for the minute taker.
[09:23:30] <oej (scribe)> Yes, this is too many discussion points - Ping Olafur!
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[09:24:01] <Olafur Gudmundsson> send questions to the chat room we need to keep our eye on the clock
[09:24:14] <oej (scribe)> Ok.
[09:24:24] <oej (scribe)> Stand in line for tickets :-)
[09:24:40] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: I *am* writing down my questions... and I do understand today's time constraints... I think it may just be a disjointed discussion.
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[09:25:51] <oej (scribe)> Slide #6 - CNAME processing
[09:26:02] <oej (scribe)> Or just disallow CNAMEs
[09:27:12] <Andrew Sullivan> @Dan I was teasing.  It strikes me that, in future (and this is the case for all WGs) it'd be nice if, when there's a packed agenda and this long list of open issues, perhaps the authors could prepare the list of discussion questions & send to the mail list in advance, so that the time could be devoted to discussion.  Just a suggestion.
[09:27:13] <oej (scribe)> He is close to EKR speed, but much more clear
[09:27:15] <Dan York> oej (scribe): Yes, but operationally CNAMEs are useful.  A lot easier to configure mail clients for "mail.example.com" vs "mail.svr.we.have.too.many.data.centers.example.com"
[09:27:48] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: Yes, I agree
[09:27:50] <oej (scribe)> Dan: Point taken.
[09:27:54] <bortzmeyer> Dan York: no need. Use RFC 6186 <http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6186.txt>
[09:28:04] <oej (scribe)> Slide #7: TLSA lookup suppression
[09:28:11] <fanf> the dname point is good and i think it convinces me that being cname-oblivious (like i originally specified) is unhelpful
[09:28:13] <Dan York> bortzmeyer: Very true.
[09:28:50] <oej (scribe)> Is there support for SMTP srv records in any software?
[09:29:02] <oej (scribe)> s /SMTP/submission/
[09:29:09] Dan Wing joins the room
[09:29:56] <fanf> mua src adoption is disappointingly sparse
[09:30:06] <oej (scribe)> Slide #8 Avoid Mixed PKI modes
[09:30:46] <fanf> mua src brb turning off auto incorrect
[09:30:54] <oej (scribe)> I guess that this presentation alone opens for a one-hour discussion
[09:31:14] <oej (scribe)> Slide #9 - Normative language Issues
[09:31:29] <bortzmeyer> Wow, what a list of issues!
[09:31:42] <oej (scribe)> Paul Wouters speaking
[09:32:04] <Olafur Gudmundsson> First cert/TLSA discussion then on to DNS issues
[09:32:20] <oej (scribe)> Philip Hallam-Baker speaking
[09:32:27] Tony Hansen joins the room
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[09:34:21] <fanf> i believe the trans working group is going to extend CT to more certs like the DANE-EE certs
[09:34:37] <oej (scribe)> Wes Hardaker
[09:34:59] <oej (scribe)> Matt Miller speaking
[09:35:08] <oej (scribe)> Steve Crocker next
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[09:36:06] <oej (scribe)> Steve Crocker speaking
[09:36:50] <oej (scribe)> Do we need SDP offer/answer for algorithms?
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[09:36:51] <oej (scribe)> /ducks
[09:37:15] <Dan York> Olafur Gudmundsson: Are you going slide-by-slide in asking the questions?
[09:37:18] <oej (scribe)> No line at mick
[09:38:09] <oej (scribe)> Peter Koch speaking
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[09:40:10] <jimsch1> relay: Is there an assumption that CNAME and TLSA records are not at the same place?
[09:40:18] <oej (scribe)> "Fallbacks is a bad thing" - Peter
[09:40:24] <oej (scribe)> Laughter
[09:40:32] <oej (scribe)> Wes hardaker speaking
[09:40:37] sftcd joins the room
[09:41:16] <bortzmeyer> oej (scribe): the roposal in the draft is not really a fallback (like the lookup of address records when there is no MX is)
[09:41:18] stpeter joins the room
[09:41:46] <oej (scribe)> bortzmayer: Need "relay" ?
[09:42:04] <Andrew Sullivan> FWIW, I think a simpler protocol is better than a more complicated one with totally complete coverage.
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[09:42:13] <oej (scribe)> Dan york personally speaking
[09:42:20] <Andrew Sullivan> for the complicated case, the answer is "don't do that"
[09:42:33] <bortzmeyer> oej (scribe): no, thanks, just thinking on XMPP
[09:42:36] johani joins the room
[09:42:41] <Andrew Sullivan> (no need to go to mic)
[09:42:45] <oej (scribe)> "Thank you for running code!" - Dan York to Viktor
[09:42:45] <stpeter> Andrew Sullivan: apple pie good, yes ;-)
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[09:43:03] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: Agree on keeping it simple!
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[09:43:18] <jimsch1> For me same place would be having the tlsa as children of the node with the cname
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[09:43:25] <Andrew Sullivan> so that means no fallback as suggested in doc now
[09:43:36] <Barry Leiba> He's DANE-gereous.
[09:43:42] <Andrew Sullivan> ow
[09:43:44] <Olafur Gudmundsson> @Andrew please send that to the mailing list
[09:43:51] sftcd joins the room
[09:43:52] <Andrew Sullivan> yep
[09:43:53] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation - DANE SRV - Matt Miller (aka m&m)
[09:44:08] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 - Big changes since -02
[09:44:14] <Dan York> Slides - http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dane-0.pdf
[09:44:44] <oej (scribe)> Slide #4  Terms
[09:45:25] <oej (scribe)> Slide #5 - Clarity on Lookups
[09:46:07] <oej (scribe)> Slide #6 - More Guidance
[09:47:06] <oej (scribe)> Slide #7 of 7 - Next Steps
[09:47:42] <jelte> always the damn [cd]names
[09:48:22] <oej (scribe)> Dan YOrk  speaking
[09:48:28] <fanf> i should resurrect the pop/imap/submission draft too
[09:48:56] <Dan York> Here's the list of XMPP servers with DANE: https://xmpp.net/reports.php#dnssecdane
[09:49:07] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation - DANE/DNS Vocabulary
[09:49:20] <oej (scribe)> Olafur without a hat.
[09:49:38] <oej (scribe)> Yesterday we saw the Nomcom hat, but I still want to see the wg chair hat.
[09:49:44] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 - BUT
[09:50:00] <Andrew Sullivan> The wg chair hat has a hammer attached to the top
[09:50:11] <Andrew Sullivan> when you pull the string, it comes down and hits you in the face.
[09:50:13] <stpeter> per Dan, here's a link to the XMPP server results: https://xmpp.net/reports.php#dnssecdane
[09:50:13] <oej (scribe)> Slide #4 - Defined terms
[09:50:31] <stpeter> oh heh
[09:50:42] <Dan York> ;-)
[09:50:47] <stpeter> sorry, didn't see that Dan already posted it
[09:51:13] <Dan York> stpeter: No worries... it's worth posting again!  You all are doing *great* work making this stuff real.
[09:51:28] <oej (scribe)> +1000
[09:51:36] <oej (scribe)> Olafur put his hat on again.
[09:51:50] wolfgang.beck01 joins the room
[09:52:11] <oej (scribe)> The floor is open (and we all fall down to the bar)
[09:52:16] <oej (scribe)> Paul Hoffman speaking
[09:54:02] <oej (scribe)> Matt miller speaking in a personal tone.
[09:54:25] <oej (scribe)> Paul Wouters speaking
[09:54:28] <oej (scribe)> With red hat on
[09:54:56] <oej (scribe)> Is the AD bit the bit for the Area Directors?
[09:55:00] <oej (scribe)> :-)
[09:55:06] <oej (scribe)> Viktor speaking
[09:55:46] <stpeter> Dan York: I should introduce you to the guy who is sitting to my right, since he is doing some of this work
[09:56:18] <oej (scribe)> Chris Newman
[09:56:26] <Dan York> stpeter: Please do.
[09:57:46] <Andrew Sullivan> mic if not cut: a common vocab document would be really good and if the SMTP document gets completely baked and is done, there's no big issue to send it up with a downref until everything is complete (but I agree with Chris about deadlines)
[09:57:50] <oej (scribe)> We Hardaker speaking
[09:58:04] <stpeter> opportunistic authoring?
[09:58:12] <oej (scribe)> No cut yet - still open floor
[09:58:38] <oej (scribe)> Paul Hoffman speaking
[09:58:55] <Andrew Sullivan> meh, pull the submission, Wes just convinced me
[09:59:01] <Andrew Sullivan> I mean mic comment
[09:59:11] <oej (scribe)> Too late…
[09:59:12] richgold joins the room
[09:59:16] <stpeter> too late
[09:59:21] <Andrew Sullivan> so I see :)
[09:59:30] <Andrew Sullivan> disadvantage of being out of the room: you can't leave the line
[09:59:31] <oej (scribe)> Murray Kucherawy speaking
[09:59:38] <stpeter> :)
[09:59:47] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: And I didn't see your message
[09:59:53] <Andrew Sullivan> no worries
[09:59:57] <oej (scribe)> It came while Dan was speaking.
[10:00:07] <m&m> Andrew Sullivan: it's not easy to get into line *in* the room
[10:00:16] <Andrew Sullivan> people can read this transcript in the unlikely event they care what I think :)  
[10:00:25] <Dan York> Andrew Sullivan: oej and I are right next to the mic (on purpose)
[10:01:02] N3ur0M4nc3r joins the room
[10:01:21] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation: What does a DANE response mean - Paul Hoffman
[10:01:35] <oej (scribe)> I did move Paul Hoffman away from the mic to get this seat :-)
[10:02:04] <Dan York> :-)
[10:02:07] <Andrew Sullivan> are there slides for this?  They're not linked from the agenda
[10:02:17] <jimsch1> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dane-8.pdf
[10:02:36] xnyhps joins the room
[10:02:43] <oej (scribe)> Slide #2 - Let's define the undefinable
[10:02:43] <Andrew Sullivan> ah, I see.  Thanks!
[10:03:40] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 - Delivery
[10:03:44] <bortzmeyer> I don't see the difference. Does it mean I'm normal?
[10:04:08] <oej (scribe)> Means you are a "user" using "user interfaces" - stuff that many people avoid ;-)
[10:04:35] <fanf> if there is a difference it is very hard for me to see too
[10:04:55] <oej (scribe)> Yes, this is hard to get… Trying to focus.
[10:04:56] Phill joins the room
[10:05:05] <oej (scribe)> Slide #4 - Discovery
[10:05:09] <jelte> only difference i can come up with is that it's the same, but viewed 'from dns' and 'to dns'
[10:05:14] <fanf> before SRV there was WKS
[10:05:20] <Olafur Gudmundsson> and MX
[10:05:31] <Dan York> bortzmeyer:  You're sitting in #DANE ... I don't think that qualifies you as "normal" :-)
[10:05:35] <bortzmeyer> Delivery is when you know there is an answer and discovery when you don't know?
[10:06:02] <rigo> Note that with DNS, there is a business process around storing those certificates into the system                                                                             
[10:06:14] <Phill > Bodicea used MX
[10:06:25] Zash joins the room
[10:06:36] <oej (scribe)> Important qustion: "Does DNSsec signing imply an intent" or is it just an integrity check
[10:06:36] <jelte> i don't tend to think of dns as discovery since 'discovery' to me implies questions like 'what are all the things you can do?'
[10:07:12] <oej (scribe)> There's a secret fourth bullet on Slide #6 - How this affects DANE
[10:07:29] <bortzmeyer> jelte: RFC 7108 <http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7108.txt> "nodes.l.root-servers.org TXT" :-)
[10:08:05] <oej (scribe)> Fourth bullet: "This is a security policy - we are using DANE to transmit a security policy"
[10:08:14] <Andrew Sullivan> there's an ambiguity in "discovery".  Some of it is "discover service at this owner name" and some of it is "find the right owner name for this service".  Most of the DNS anger is directed at (2) because it requires tree-climbing
[10:08:26] <jelte> :)
[10:08:30] <oej (scribe)> Slide 7 - "So?" Empty
[10:08:36] <Dan York> The fourth bullet is "Statements like these might not just be
“discovery”, they could also be considered
“security policy” "
[10:08:49] <oej (scribe)> Line is filing up very quickly. We need a bigger room for the mic line
[10:08:55] <oej (scribe)> We Hardaker speaking
[10:09:08] <oej (scribe)> After him Peter Koch, Eliot Lear and more
[10:09:14] <jelte> last dane meeting i went to also had a room that was too small (it's been a few ietfs though)
[10:09:30] <rigo> I think we need DANE to #STRINT the Web :)                                                                             
[10:09:41] <Andrew Sullivan> dane waxes and wanes depending on what it's up against
[10:09:45] <oej (scribe)> rigo: :-)
[10:09:53] <oej (scribe)> Wg chair trying to interrupt
[10:10:19] <oej (scribe)> Peter Koch speaking
[10:10:43] <oej (scribe)> Five people in queue
[10:11:46] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 shown "delivery"
[10:11:46] <N3ur0M4nc3r> Hi! I am a remote participant and I'm having problems with audio streaming. Is there a 32kb/s stream as I have a shaky Wi-Fi connection.
[10:12:35] <bortzmeyer> Looking at Paul is harassment (per the new procedure)?
[10:12:46] Phill leaves the room
[10:12:48] <Dan York> N3ur0M4nc3r: There's only the one audio stream
[10:13:02] <oej (scribe)> Eliot Lear speaking
[10:13:02] <Dan York> N3ur0M4nc3r: And we don't have MeetEcho for this session
[10:13:13] <N3ur0M4nc3r> @Dan OK!
[10:13:35] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room
[10:14:03] <oej (scribe)> We should request MeetEcho next IETF
[10:14:10] <Zash> And a larger room
[10:14:23] <oej (scribe)> Tony Finch speaking
[10:14:28] <oej (scribe)> Dave Crocker next in line
[10:14:31] <sftcd> larger room issue was noted by alert chairs a while ago:-)
[10:14:47] Frederico A C Neves joins the room
[10:15:11] <Andrew Sullivan> the basic problem here is that applications _must_ treat things from the DNS as expressing an intentional (or at least, intensional) link between the owner name and the RDATA
[10:15:41] <Andrew Sullivan> but within DNS there is no necessary link between the operator, the operator's intention, and the data in the DNS
[10:16:14] <oej (scribe)> NAPTR is definitely an intent the way we use it in SIP. I use NAPTR to say "You can only use TLS to call me".
[10:16:44] <oej (scribe)> "Oh I discover an A record in the example.com zone - where do I report my findings?"
[10:17:08] <oej (scribe)> Paul Hallam-Baker speaking
[10:17:19] <Andrew Sullivan> oej: you may intend it that way, and the SIP application has to handle it as though that is true, but there's no way to link from the DNS the responsible person and the intention.
[10:17:19] <oej (scribe)> s /Paul/Philip/
[10:17:34] <oej (scribe)> Andrew: Right.
[10:17:48] <oej (scribe)> Eric Osterweil coming up after Philip
[10:17:53] <Andrew Sullivan> this is partly because there is no evidence in the DNS of the link between the operator of the domain and the zone as such.
[10:18:29] <oej (scribe)> And between the operator of the domain and the operator of the application service, which is quite often a big gap.
[10:18:56] <Andrew Sullivan> exactly right
[10:19:04] <Suz> thus, DBOUND :)
[10:19:05] matthijs leaves the room
[10:19:08] <jelte> hmm. And between the source and the target of a CNAME, for that matter :p
[10:19:26] <Andrew Sullivan> no, DBOUND will only get you a link between this owner-name and that one.
[10:19:30] <oej (scribe)> Right, Jelte
[10:19:51] <Andrew Sullivan> We could do something similar, however, with owner names and applications by having a cookie system between them
[10:19:51] <Dan York> I am in line. if anyone remote wants a relay i can do so.
[10:19:53] <oej (scribe)> We are touching layers far above the app layer in this discussion.
[10:19:58] <Andrew Sullivan> I think that's overkill, though
[10:20:10] <oej (scribe)> Do we want the boss of telephony to sign the NAPTR records with his personal S/MIME keys?
[10:20:12] matthijs joins the room
[10:20:26] <oej (scribe)> Eric talking
[10:20:31] Phill joins the room
[10:20:32] N3ur0M4nc3r leaves the room
[10:20:32] <oej (scribe)> Next Daniel Gillmor
[10:20:33] <Andrew Sullivan> applications are using names in the DNS.  It is my view that, once you've already decided to use that naming technology, the fact that you personally do not operate the name servers is irrelevant
[10:20:44] <oej (scribe)> After that Dan York
[10:21:08] <oej (scribe)> After Dan: Viktor and Matt Miller
[10:21:10] <Andrew Sullivan> if you really have a problem with that, don't use DNS.
[10:21:18] Zash leaves the room
[10:21:24] <Andrew Sullivan> not NXDOMAIN, surely
[10:21:31] resnick joins the room
[10:21:34] <stpeter> absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
[10:21:36] <Andrew Sullivan> but No Data
[10:21:49] <bortzmeyer> It's not specific to DANE. You cannot express 'this domain does not receive email' (the lack of a MX does not suffice)
[10:22:04] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> +1 I'm a little confused by this discussion
[10:22:30] <Andrew Sullivan> Well, I think the work that _could_ come out of this is, "Are there semantics we cannot express that we _should_ be able to express?"
[10:22:30] <Barry Leiba> Confused, Sean?  Confused?
[10:22:31] <Jakob Schlyter> IMHO, the lack of TLSA doesn't say you should not use TLS. It just mean you don't know. Just as before DANE.
[10:22:33] <oej (scribe)> Viktor Dukhovni next
[10:22:41] <fanf> +1 jakob
[10:22:46] <m.jenkins.364706> isn't this "which bits of information is dns authoritative for"?
[10:23:05] N3ur0M4nc3r joins the room
[10:23:13] <oej (scribe)> +1 Jakob
[10:23:25] <jelte> nodata? on a label-specified domain name?
[10:23:26] <oej (scribe)> Matt Miller
[10:23:30] <Andrew Sullivan> it sounds like some people want the HASNTTLS RRTYPE
[10:23:37] <Andrew Sullivan> (to correspond with HASTLS)
[10:23:39] <Dan York> Jakob Schlyter: Should I relay that?
[10:23:47] <oej (scribe)> I think you should, Dan.
[10:23:50] <Jakob Schlyter> Dan; sure, please do.
[10:23:51] <oej (scribe)> Forced relay...
[10:24:00] <Jakob Schlyter> NAT relay :-)
[10:24:06] <Andrew Sullivan> @jelte: yeah, the point is that if you have a functioning name and there's no TLSA record for it, you're not going to get NXDOMAIN
[10:24:10] <oej (scribe)> Oh no, we are stricly AAAA here
[10:24:16] <Andrew Sullivan> when you query for TLSA
[10:24:31] <Andrew Sullivan> oh, wait
[10:24:34] <Andrew Sullivan> duh, you are
[10:24:37] <jelte> right :)
[10:24:38] <Andrew Sullivan> I'm an idiot
[10:24:43] <Andrew Sullivan> brain fade
[10:24:48] <Andrew Sullivan> I blame Thurs
[10:24:52] <jelte> blame long week ;)
[10:25:04] <oej (scribe)> Paul Wouters speaking, next wes Hardaker
[10:25:26] <Phill > Not seeing STARTTLS in SMTP options is the only way to know that you MUST NOT use TLS
[10:25:51] <Phill > Of course to be confident in it you should really get it over a TLS secured session...
[10:25:57] <oej (scribe)> Seeing NAPTR records for SIP without any reference to TLS means "Do not use TLS"
[10:25:57] <Jakob Schlyter> +1 phill, but that only works for STARTTLS protocols. harder for HTTPS.
[10:26:00] <bortzmeyer> Phill : that's unsafe
[10:26:00] <Andrew Sullivan> It does sound like a "security semantics" document for all these records would be a good idea
[10:26:12] <bortzmeyer> Phill : an active attacker may delete the STARTTLS
[10:26:17] <Andrew Sullivan> work on that could identify gaps in things one wants to express
[10:26:49] <Phill > Bortzmeyer, you are thinking of the opposite case MUST USE STARTTLS, this is the must not case
[10:26:49] <oej (scribe)> "Do we need to do anything about this" - Olafur as AD
[10:26:55] <oej (scribe)> Paul HOffman speaking
[10:26:56] <Jakob Schlyter> why put a TLSA in the DNS if you don't want people to use TLS? and if you can use TLS, why would you want people _not_ to use it. #puzzled
[10:27:19] <oej (scribe)> dan: Relay that too
[10:27:25] <Andrew Sullivan> there's the question about "if you don't get a record, do you know what to do?"  Maybe people want a statement about that
[10:27:26] <Jakob Schlyter> sure.
[10:27:38] <Phill > @Jackob I think DKG's point was that this is not a complete security policy mechanism.
[10:28:03] <fanf> +1 jakob again :-)
[10:28:13] <oej (scribe)> Matt Miller speaking and signing up for more work
[10:28:50] <oej (scribe)> "Viktor again" speaking
[10:29:04] <Zash> Heh
[10:29:33] <Phill > .
[10:29:34] Tim Wicinski leaves the room
[10:29:40] <oej (scribe)> Pete Resnick in line, then Dave Crocker
[10:30:09] N3ur0M4nc3r leaves the room
[10:30:16] <Phill > .
[10:30:25] <oej (scribe)> Peter Resnick without hat.
[10:31:07] N3ur0M4nc3r joins the room
[10:31:10] <Phill > .
[10:31:17] <Dan York> (for the remote people wondering about the laughter, Pete was saying he was not wearing a hat and was as bald as the day is new... but he has long hair in a ponytail going down his back.)
[10:31:17] Phill leaves the room
[10:31:33] Phill joins the room
[10:31:35] <oej (scribe)> Dave Crocker talking
[10:31:41] <Andrew Sullivan> I think it's good to know that Phill is the root :)
[10:31:44] <oej (scribe)> Peter Saint-Andre speaking next
[10:31:56] resnick leaves the room
[10:32:24] <oej (scribe)> Olafur speaking
[10:32:41] <sftcd> @Andrew: maybe we need a philosophy mailing list for dane ;-)
[10:32:56] <Andrew Sullivan> oh, yikes
[10:33:07] matthijs leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[10:33:08] matthijs joins the room
[10:33:14] <bortzmeyer> sftcd: +1 http://www.w3.org/community/philoweb/
[10:33:20] <oej (scribe)> Peter speaking
[10:33:26] <jimsch1> @sftcd: Requires both the greek and the english translation?
[10:33:31] resnick joins the room
[10:33:53] Phill leaves the room
[10:34:03] <Dan York> stpeter doesn't want to violate principle of "least user astonishment"
[10:34:20] <oej (scribe)> Paul Hoffman speaking …
[10:34:21] <jelte> oimoi, pheu
[10:34:22] <Andrew Sullivan> "Semiotics of DNS names from user, application, domain name, and post-modernist perspectives".  By J.F.C. Morfin.
[10:34:35] <Andrew Sullivan> oops, sorry, no
[10:34:48] <rigo> I like green bikes with yellow sheds                                                                             
[10:34:53] <oej (scribe)> Dan York in queue, then Mark Andrews
[10:35:06] <resnick> If we never did EKU, would that have been bad?
[10:35:25] <oej (scribe)> +1000 for developer guidance!
[10:35:28] <resnick> Oh, Paul's not here.
[10:35:36] <Andrew Sullivan> "Semiotics of DNS names from an architechtonic lead user's, pan-applicationist, IntraSuperSemioNet, post-modernist perspective".  By an autonomous collective.
[10:35:55] Steve Olshansky leaves the room
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[10:36:24] <stpeter> Andrew Sullivan: that sounds like comp-lit :-)
[10:36:25] <Phill > .
[10:36:45] N3ur0M4nc3r leaves the room
[10:36:53] <Andrew Sullivan> @stpeter: sure, but there's a reason that crowd liked Derrida so much.
[10:36:53] Tim Wicinski joins the room
[10:36:55] <oej (scribe)> Phill: Ack. You keep adding empty postings in the chat room - is that what you aim to do?
[10:37:14] <jimsch1> @Andrew: are we going Spamlot?
[10:38:02] N3ur0M4nc3r joins the room
[10:38:32] <Andrew Sullivan> I saw a sign that there was a sale on Spamalot tix.  Maybe we should!
[10:38:38] <oej (scribe)> Olafur as chair - asking for consensus
[10:38:49] <oej (scribe)> Do you think we should document this?
[10:38:53] <resnick> s/consensus/sense of the room
[10:38:58] <jimsch1> +1 document it
[10:39:04] <oej (scribe)> thanks resnick
[10:39:28] <jelte> objection! The chair is leading the hummers!
[10:39:34] <jelte> :p
[10:39:38] <oej (scribe)> Dan York
[10:40:01] N3ur0M4nc3r leaves the room
[10:40:16] <oej (scribe)> Warren speaking personally
[10:40:31] <oej (scribe)> Yoav Nir speaking
[10:40:50] <bortzmeyer> jelte: Olafur said we will have two questions?
[10:40:58] <Phill > .
[10:41:06] <jelte> good point
[10:41:09] Steve Olshansky joins the room
[10:41:32] <jelte> were the 'yes' and the 'no' hum considered separate questions?
[10:41:34] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation: Paul Wouters
[10:41:40] <oej (scribe)> Draft-wouters-dane-openpgp-02
[10:41:44] <bortzmeyer> jelte: I'm afraid this was the case
[10:43:08] <resnick> @jelte: The chairs were trying to get a sense of whether there was a significant desire to document semantics. They heard that there was. What they do with that info is TBD.
[10:43:19] <oej (scribe)> I think this is slide #2
[10:43:39] <oej (scribe)> Page #4
[10:43:39] <jelte> ok
[10:44:10] <oej (scribe)> Peter Saint-Andre speaking
[10:44:20] <oej (scribe)> SLide #5 Running Code
[10:44:30] <oej (scribe)> Keith Moore next in line
[10:44:58] <oej (scribe)> Viktor Dukhovni after Keith
[10:45:04] Zash joins the room
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[10:45:40] Steve Olshansky leaves the room
[10:45:43] <oej (scribe)> That was Warren
[10:46:12] matthijs joins the room
[10:46:14] <oej (scribe)> Daniel Kahn Gillmor  next
[10:46:51] <oej (scribe)> Viktor is still in line
[10:47:03] <Jakob Schlyter> relay: the client has incentive to do the right thing regarding case. the server also has incentive to do the right thing. downcasing (for some value of casing) seems the reasonable way if you want to interoperate.
[10:47:35] <oej (scribe)> Mark Andrews in line, after that Jakob Schlyter (aka Dan Relay)
[10:48:18] <Dan York> any other relays while i am here?
[10:48:25] <Jakob Schlyter> non-relay: echo -n "jAkOb" | openssl sha -sha224 would be #fail for everyone
[10:48:31] Steve Olshansky joins the room
[10:48:46] <oej (scribe)> I would like to hear someone relaying code…
[10:49:03] <oej (scribe)> Dan: Only accept relays from remote participants… ;-)
[10:49:04] Doug Montgomery leaves the room
[10:49:04] <Dan York> :-)
[10:49:18] <oej (scribe)> Mark Andrews speaking
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[10:50:11] <jelte> something expn-like?
[10:50:22] Doug Montgomery joins the room
[10:51:14] <fanf> sotto voce: good grief i don’t want to have to write my mta configuration twice. it’s a horrific beast … and my config doesn’t do crazy things like fuzzy matchinf in LDAP
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[10:51:35] <stpeter> WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?
[10:51:45] <Zash> CAPS LOCK IS CRUICE CONTROL FOR COOL
[10:52:22] <Phill > THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
[10:52:31] <oej (scribe)> Mike line cut ———————
[10:52:52] <jelte> sounds like this could better be implemented in smtp itself, tbh (but i think i am repeating myself)
[10:53:21] <Phill > ]TAKE THIS TO THE MAILING LIST
[10:53:28] <jelte> 'ima send to user@domain, gimme some pubkey'
[10:53:39] matthijs leaves the room
[10:54:22] <Phill > @OEJ, its a Dave line
[10:54:35] <oej (scribe)> I need to withdraw my SIP DANE draft to write some code for a while. Starting with DNSsec support in ASterisk… Ouch.
[10:54:38] <fanf> +1 chris newman
[10:54:51] <oej (scribe)> We do have DNSsec in Kamailio, so that may be a better starting point.
[10:54:59] <Jakob Schlyter> all problems can be solved by another layer of indirection. hello LDAP!
[10:55:00] <oej (scribe)> Dick Franks speaking
[10:55:20] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> +1 to chris newman
[10:55:45] <stpeter> !c14n
[10:56:01] <oej (scribe)> Olafur as chair speaking
[10:56:09] matthijs joins the room
[10:56:10] <oej (scribe)> Some shouting from behind
[10:56:32] <oej (scribe)> Chairs asking for sense of the room - do we want to adopt the document
[10:56:47] <sftcd> btw, why sha224?
[10:56:48] <oej (scribe)> Record type document
[10:56:55] <oej (scribe)> Hum?
[10:57:00] <Jakob Schlyter> @sftcd; see mailing list
[10:57:02] <Jakob Schlyter> hum
[10:57:06] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> hum for record type one
[10:57:08] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> adopt
[10:57:19] <Jakob Schlyter> hum for usage
[10:57:21] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> humm fr usage
[10:57:31] <sftcd> @jakob: no i meant why not sha256 was that on list?
[10:57:32] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> NO
[10:57:33] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> ;)
[10:57:38] <oej (scribe)> Strong hum on adoption of both documents says Olafur
[10:57:50] <oej (scribe)> ROT13….
[10:57:51] satoru.kanno@jabber.org leaves the room
[10:57:56] <Jakob Schlyter> @sftcd, a sha256 hash does not fit in a single label
[10:58:30] wseltzer joins the room
[10:58:34] <oej (scribe)> Next presentation: Paul Wouters - IPsec Opportunistic encryption
[10:58:37] <jelte> mismatched quotes
[10:58:39] <Dan York> Slides: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/slides/slides-89-dane-3.pdf
[10:58:49] <jelte> can't parse title
[10:58:50] Doug Montgomery leaves the room
[10:58:55] <Dan York> jelte: Ha!  Indeed!
[10:59:04] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3 - The OE mechanism
[10:59:09] <oej (scribe)> Stephen Farrell talking
[10:59:49] <Olafur Gudmundsson> @Sean.Turner was your NO on adoption of a document ?
[10:59:52] matthijs leaves the room
[11:00:04] <sftcd> I like the work btw, but 3 X presenting it is 2 X too-many in most cases
[11:00:22] Doug Montgomery joins the room
[11:00:31] <Dan York> Wait... a *fourth* presentation with *running code*! :-)
[11:01:02] <oej (scribe)> Dan York speaking
[11:01:06] <oej (scribe)> We are now informed
[11:01:08] <Suz> @Dan: Are the ADs watching? I think that means we have to shut down the WG.
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[11:01:38] <jelte> dan does not feel informed?
[11:01:43] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room
[11:01:57] <oej (scribe)> Next Presentation : IPSECA are we choosing between security suites?
[11:02:04] <Dan York> Slides are not available
[11:02:06] Steve Olshansky leaves the room
[11:02:10] <oej (scribe)> Eric Osterweil
[11:02:18] <oej (scribe)> Slide #2
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[11:02:41] <Dan York> jelte: Ha!  Yes, I'm informed... just wondering what the point was.
[11:02:50] <Dan York> (or if that was the only point)
[11:03:19] <oej (scribe)> Slide #3: What's the point of this draft?
[11:03:37] <Jakob Schlyter> can someone share the slides with us remotees?
[11:03:42] <oej (scribe)> "key learning" - not discovery
[11:03:45] <Jakob Schlyter> fedex me that thumbdrive!
[11:03:47] <Dan York> Here is Eric's draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-osterweil-dane-ipsec-00
[11:04:17] <Dan York> Jakob Schlyter: Thumb drive is in Warren's computer.  We can't get them out to anyone
[11:04:43] <oej (scribe)> Slide: Passing DNS around the stack
[11:04:48] pawal joins the room
[11:04:57] <oej (scribe)> Slide #6: Example solution scopes - missing the really , really cool animation
[11:05:09] Mo7sen@jappix.com leaves the room: Disconnected: timeout during writing
[11:05:30] <Dan York> (Remote attendees: the laughter in the room is because none of Eric's animations work.)
[11:06:08] <oej (scribe)> Slide #7 - Passing security up the stack
[11:06:16] <oej (scribe)> Slide #8 So?
[11:06:42] m&m leaves the room
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[11:06:53] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> @dan: thanks
[11:07:14] m&m joins the room
[11:07:35] <oej (scribe)> I creat slide animations when I'm bored in airports and remove them after making a presentation…
[11:07:44] <oej (scribe)> Last slide: Thanks
[11:07:48] <oej (scribe)> Paul Wouters speaking
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[11:09:44] <oej (scribe)> Tried to slow down Eric to make it easier for remote listeners
[11:10:09] <Andrew Sullivan> tyvm
[11:10:16] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> adopt 'em
[11:10:20] <Andrew Sullivan> he was nearing .8 ekr
[11:10:29] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> recharter ;)
[11:10:31] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> it's easy
[11:10:36] <jelte> 800 milli-ekr
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[11:11:01] <oej (scribe)> Sean: Do you want relay support or are you in the room?
[11:11:19] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> nah - I can send that to the lsit
[11:11:26] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> they'll need to recharter first
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[11:11:43] <sean.turner@jabber.psg.com> +1 meetecho!
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[11:11:54] <oej (scribe)> That was all. Thank you all! Meetecho has confirmed for next IETF :-)
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[11:12:01] <Andrew Sullivan> you could add my name to the blue sheet — I'd have been there if I coulda got in
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